mnmtranching
Well-known member
Rustler9, I still say your intent when you started this thread is to rattle some cages. :nod: That fine 8) Things can get kinda boring sometimes on CT.
Well, she's all black.....
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Rustler9
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Frankie, sure, you can put it back on me. Not a problem. I'm sure you are absolutely correct in that black Longhorn cattle have Angus in them. Why would I ever question anything that you would have to say? You're probably like Al Gore, you know he invented the internet. I guess you invented black.
Frankie do not let them get to you, we raise beef not horns, yes there is money in horns. But as for me, the lh is just a icon from the past. If the longhorns were used for beef not horns, and if you were dealing with beef producers, then you could talk cattle...but they are not (THEY ARE NOT) they grow horns.....Anyone who wants to talk about longhorns being pure bloods so be it , they do have beautiful horns, eat anything,and very hardy but if you are raising beef...IS THERE ANYONE ON THIS SIGHT THAT WOULD NOT AGREE CROSS A LONGHORN WITH A SIMM, LIMM, ANGUS,GV, or anything else and the offspring will be a great improvement. Point is , raise beef not horns-longhorns suck... raise horns not beef (the longhorn is one of the best).
talldog
Well-known member
Have you ever ate Longhorn beef or just Guessing ??
Rustler9":2d074h81 said:
You just won't let it rest, will you? OK, we can go there, if you insist.
Yes, I think your cow probably has some Angus in her. Not because she looks anything like my Angus, but because she's black. There's a herd of cattle not too far away that has many similar looking animals, mostly heifers. I know the owner has been using a black Longhorn/Angus cross bull on his heifers for years.
All breeds of cattle have a common ancestor, the auroch. The differences between breeds are man made. My cattle aren't Angus copies, they're Angus. I'd be very happy if Simmental, Longhorns, and Maines were spotted. I'd be very happy if Limousin and Salers were red. But those aren't my decisions.
I have what seems to me some logical reasons behind my thinking:
One is the herd that I speak of. They're second or third generation Longhorns now, solid black with horns.
Another: One of the bragging points of Longhorn cattle seem to be that they are "natural". That they fended for themselves on the range and only the strongest survived. If that's the case, how can you possibly know what her ancestors bred to? It's a long way from Spain to Scotland, but not that far from Texas to Kansas. When the first Angus bulls were brought into Kansas, they were crossed with Longhorn cows. Why? Because that was about the only cattle around. We know that happened in 1873. As best I can tell, the first Longhorn breed book wasn't even established until well past that date.
And: we go to the Wichita Wildlife Refuge Longhorn sale when we can. I think there's no purer line of Longhorns around that that one. And I've never seen a solid colored animal sold. Some do have black spots, but all I've ever seen were spotted.
I'm not beating your cattle up. If you're convinced that her color comes from Spanish Fighting Bulls, fine. I'm sure you know that you don't have to prove anything, especially to me; but I have the right to my opinion. If you don't want to hear it, then don't yank my chain.
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Rustler9
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You yanked mine so I just yanked back-now here you go:
WICHITA REFUGE cattle have the best known history. The sixty-ninth congress in 1927 provided "that not to exceed $3,000 . . . shall be expended for the purchase and maintenance of a herd of long - horned or Spanish breed of cattle . . . to the end that the present few examples be preserved from extinction." The herd was started in the late twenties by selecting individuals from numerous south Texas herds. Two government forest rangers were in charge of the $3,000 and completed the task. (no one knows why government forest rangers were delegated to the job). None of the WR purchases were from other major herds of that day. The other families of Marks, Yates, Wright, Phillips, Butler were not used as a source for the foundation WR stock. The WR cattle were selected from smaller obscure herds, although the rangers travelled right in the same area of the major herds of that day. The original, traditional WR cattle were not of the horn growth, conformation or pretty colors their modern cattle possess. In 1968 Graves Peeler serving as a Longhorn Association inspector, commented that the WR had done a good job getting the badly swaybacked, traditional cattle culled from the herd.
Probably the most appreciated thing about the WR cattle is their fine set of pedigrees. The government herd always had staff carefully record this information. Until 2001 WR cattle had complete pedigree records back to the beginning of their herd. This information was appreciated by producers and had been neglected years ago by the other six families. A new policy was implemented by the 2001 WR leaders to halt all pedigree records and raise a multiple sire herd. Fans of WR cattle were devastated by this seventy year policy change.
The most famous WR bull of all time was "WR 2935." His weight was 1,260 lbs. and his horns were over 42". No other WR bull has had the popularity of WR 2935.
Don Quixote is believed to be the all-time leading contributor of quality genetics representing the WR family. He has sired more over 50" progeny than any other WR bull. His progeny are mostly black and very trim of underline. Their growth and correct type command respect. Nearly all pure black longhorn cattle today trace to Don Quixote.
The WR cattle are intensely inbred. Possibly due to this, many WR cattle are somewhat smaller in size, length and height than other families. A direct out cross to larger families will correct this.
The WR herd in Cache, Oklahoma have calved unassisted and in many ways are managed much like wild animals. Each cow calves within a few minutes walk of hungry government protected coyotes. This means every cow learns to be a good mother or ends up without a calf.
Probably more solid color bulls have been used on the WR cows than most herds. There is a commitment by WR management to perpetuate Spanish type or Longhorns as they historically were. It is not felt the old cattle were consistently highly colorful, which I'm sure is correct in general. The dynamic colors seen today, have been bred into herds by special selection because of public appeal. These were not traditional colors.
More WR blood is available in the nation than any other family. This is due to availability as a result of their many annual surplus sales. Roughly 50% to 70% of all Texas Longhorn cattle possess high percentages of WR blood. This availability creates WR bulls in large numbers and therefore they normally sell fairly economically. This large number of WR cows makes it important for producers to utilize bulls of the other six families. WR is not well appreciated for herd sires.
Over the years WR has made an effort to place a small amount of new blood in their herd. Several bulls were acquired from Yates. One Phillips and one Butler bull were used. The bull, Bold Ruler, was donated to WR by the Dickinson family and his WR branded calves were the highest selling in the history of WR.
When evaluating WR bulls, their horns are more curled forward and up like the Spanish fighting bulls, rather than the wider lateral horn spreads that are more popular today. Most WR bulls have a clean sheath but many have excess lower neck and brisket skin causing a somewhat buffalo like silhouette. This is not the case with all WR bulls. Probably less than 10% of the bulls raised by WR ever reach up to 40" horn spans. Most mature WR bulls weigh 1,100 to 1,400 lbs. depending on health conditions. Their shoulder height will range from 52" to 54". Which reveals their Spanish influence.
WR cows are very feminine. Some are colorful. They are consistently above average for milk production because the fattest heifers were for years retained for replacements, concentrating this factor.
The most famous cow ever produced by WR was "Measles." Her blood is highly sought by most prominent Longhorn producers. WR cattle are moderate in size and horn growth. They are the most numerous of all seven families because of availability at an annual surplus auction which began in 1942. Due to the major numbers of WR cattle sold annually, they often sell for low prices.
WICHITA REFUGE cattle have the best known history. The sixty-ninth congress in 1927 provided "that not to exceed $3,000 . . . shall be expended for the purchase and maintenance of a herd of long - horned or Spanish breed of cattle . . . to the end that the present few examples be preserved from extinction." The herd was started in the late twenties by selecting individuals from numerous south Texas herds. Two government forest rangers were in charge of the $3,000 and completed the task. (no one knows why government forest rangers were delegated to the job). None of the WR purchases were from other major herds of that day. The other families of Marks, Yates, Wright, Phillips, Butler were not used as a source for the foundation WR stock. The WR cattle were selected from smaller obscure herds, although the rangers travelled right in the same area of the major herds of that day. The original, traditional WR cattle were not of the horn growth, conformation or pretty colors their modern cattle possess. In 1968 Graves Peeler serving as a Longhorn Association inspector, commented that the WR had done a good job getting the badly swaybacked, traditional cattle culled from the herd.
Probably the most appreciated thing about the WR cattle is their fine set of pedigrees. The government herd always had staff carefully record this information. Until 2001 WR cattle had complete pedigree records back to the beginning of their herd. This information was appreciated by producers and had been neglected years ago by the other six families. A new policy was implemented by the 2001 WR leaders to halt all pedigree records and raise a multiple sire herd. Fans of WR cattle were devastated by this seventy year policy change.
The most famous WR bull of all time was "WR 2935." His weight was 1,260 lbs. and his horns were over 42". No other WR bull has had the popularity of WR 2935.
Don Quixote is believed to be the all-time leading contributor of quality genetics representing the WR family. He has sired more over 50" progeny than any other WR bull. His progeny are mostly black and very trim of underline. Their growth and correct type command respect. Nearly all pure black longhorn cattle today trace to Don Quixote.
The WR cattle are intensely inbred. Possibly due to this, many WR cattle are somewhat smaller in size, length and height than other families. A direct out cross to larger families will correct this.
The WR herd in Cache, Oklahoma have calved unassisted and in many ways are managed much like wild animals. Each cow calves within a few minutes walk of hungry government protected coyotes. This means every cow learns to be a good mother or ends up without a calf.
Probably more solid color bulls have been used on the WR cows than most herds. There is a commitment by WR management to perpetuate Spanish type or Longhorns as they historically were. It is not felt the old cattle were consistently highly colorful, which I'm sure is correct in general. The dynamic colors seen today, have been bred into herds by special selection because of public appeal. These were not traditional colors.
More WR blood is available in the nation than any other family. This is due to availability as a result of their many annual surplus sales. Roughly 50% to 70% of all Texas Longhorn cattle possess high percentages of WR blood. This availability creates WR bulls in large numbers and therefore they normally sell fairly economically. This large number of WR cows makes it important for producers to utilize bulls of the other six families. WR is not well appreciated for herd sires.
Over the years WR has made an effort to place a small amount of new blood in their herd. Several bulls were acquired from Yates. One Phillips and one Butler bull were used. The bull, Bold Ruler, was donated to WR by the Dickinson family and his WR branded calves were the highest selling in the history of WR.
When evaluating WR bulls, their horns are more curled forward and up like the Spanish fighting bulls, rather than the wider lateral horn spreads that are more popular today. Most WR bulls have a clean sheath but many have excess lower neck and brisket skin causing a somewhat buffalo like silhouette. This is not the case with all WR bulls. Probably less than 10% of the bulls raised by WR ever reach up to 40" horn spans. Most mature WR bulls weigh 1,100 to 1,400 lbs. depending on health conditions. Their shoulder height will range from 52" to 54". Which reveals their Spanish influence.
WR cows are very feminine. Some are colorful. They are consistently above average for milk production because the fattest heifers were for years retained for replacements, concentrating this factor.
The most famous cow ever produced by WR was "Measles." Her blood is highly sought by most prominent Longhorn producers. WR cattle are moderate in size and horn growth. They are the most numerous of all seven families because of availability at an annual surplus auction which began in 1942. Due to the major numbers of WR cattle sold annually, they often sell for low prices.
Thank you for the history lesson. Have you been to the WR sale? While we don't go every year, I'll stand by the fact that I've never seen a solid colored animal sell there.
And what does it change? We still don't know how/where Don Quixote got his color. Are you saying this cow has Don Quixote in her pedigree?
As I said, if you want to continue to believe your cow's color comes from a Spanish Fighting bull, go for it. Her horns are definitely not the ones described in this article as indicitive of Spanish Fighting bulls.
And what does it change? We still don't know how/where Don Quixote got his color. Are you saying this cow has Don Quixote in her pedigree?
As I said, if you want to continue to believe your cow's color comes from a Spanish Fighting bull, go for it. Her horns are definitely not the ones described in this article as indicitive of Spanish Fighting bulls.
I am probably going to regret this question but with DNA testing being what it is , is it possible to have the cow in question tested for ANY traces of Angus blood. Surely if it is dominant enough to dictate her being solid black it would show up in a DNA test.
I for one would contribute to the cost just to stop this stupid argument, if for no other reason.
BTW her horns DO exactly remind me of the shape of fighting bulls. They don't look much like what I know to be traditional Longhorn shape.
One other question . Are corrientes also black because of Angus influence.?
Last question. If they are influenced enough by Angus genetics to be black why aren't they also polled?
I for one would contribute to the cost just to stop this stupid argument, if for no other reason.
BTW her horns DO exactly remind me of the shape of fighting bulls. They don't look much like what I know to be traditional Longhorn shape.
One other question . Are corrientes also black because of Angus influence.?
Last question. If they are influenced enough by Angus genetics to be black why aren't they also polled?
3waycross":g42y3ze3 said:
What argument? I have an opinion; she has another and DEMANDS that I agree with her. That won't happen by posting these little informative articles that have nothing to do with the cow in question.
I think that's a good idea. You and Rustler9 get together and get her DNA tested.
The black color is dominant; the horn gene isn't.
alacattleman
Well-known member
she also got a mustacheFrankie":cgt451vb said:
talldog
Well-known member
Does MOOOOOOing in Spanish help you Frankie !!! I think all you got on your mind is BLACKS !! :tiphat:
alacattleman
Well-known member
i hope so, any body in the registered business, should concentrate on their breed and stand behind em just like y'all only with out the one linerstalldog":161nnpzx said:
Gelbvieh 5
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3waycross":t4uonkgs said:
Did I miss the answer to the corriente question in this post. Last I knew the corriente was descended from the spanish cattle also. Did they also import Angus to Mexico to turn their cowherd black. Doesn't make much sense to turn a nations cows black when it is that hot to begin with.
alacattleman
Well-known member
and why turn a long horn black, any way? it aint like you cant spot em a mile away
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Rustler9
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Who is she? And yes, this is a stupid argument. I simply posted the picture of the black cow to show this know it all that there are black Longhorn cattle and then this person has to flatter themself and say taht there's Angus in her to cause her to be black.
While I don't feel the need to have my cow DNA tested I will be glad to do so if Frankie wants to pay for it because I have enough faith in her pedigree that it is correct. I don't believe that this cow has Angus in her back ground. Nor do I believe that all Longhorns that are black have Angus in them. I do know that the Angus/Longhorn crosses that I've seen were polled if the Angus was a true polled animal. The polled gene is dominant. The black color usually does show up but not always solid, sometimes solid, somestimes a lineback or spotted or speckled. This is one of the reasons we don't like to cross them with Angus because they still get docked at the sale yard because of the color even if they are a well built animal. I remember my uncle's registered Angus herd when I was a kid. Back in the 70's the Angus we were used to were the little teddy bear type cows and then almost overnight they went up in frame size to this bigger, taller animal. Of course some had scurs and white on their udders too. Guess they got in too big of a huryy and didn't get all of the Holstein traits out quick enough.
While I don't feel the need to have my cow DNA tested I will be glad to do so if Frankie wants to pay for it because I have enough faith in her pedigree that it is correct. I don't believe that this cow has Angus in her back ground. Nor do I believe that all Longhorns that are black have Angus in them. I do know that the Angus/Longhorn crosses that I've seen were polled if the Angus was a true polled animal. The polled gene is dominant. The black color usually does show up but not always solid, sometimes solid, somestimes a lineback or spotted or speckled. This is one of the reasons we don't like to cross them with Angus because they still get docked at the sale yard because of the color even if they are a well built animal. I remember my uncle's registered Angus herd when I was a kid. Back in the 70's the Angus we were used to were the little teddy bear type cows and then almost overnight they went up in frame size to this bigger, taller animal. Of course some had scurs and white on their udders too. Guess they got in too big of a huryy and didn't get all of the Holstein traits out quick enough.
talldog
Well-known member
Yes, They do stand out don't they !! Some cattle all look the same---Have you noticed that ??? Sometimes a one liner is all you need to get a point across---Whata u think ! :wave:alacattleman":jdzvyl4c said:
Australian
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Has there been any polled "longhorns" bred? I suppose they wouldn't be Longhorns. They'd be Shorthorns or "No horns"
alacattleman
Well-known member
what point' telling a angus breeder all they have on their mind in black. :lol:talldog":oeba6m2t said:
