Truth or Judgement on Breeding

[jscunn]

Absolutely agree, I didnt mean it should be valued above anything/everything, it seems some dont remember that it HAS to a priority. If it tastes like shoe leather, we all lose a future customer.

Fertility (if the cows dont get pregnant you have nothing to sell)
Productivity
Longevity
End Product

(I am sure I forgot something)

 

[Ky hills]

Absolutely agree, I didnt mean it should be valued above anything/everything, it seems some dont remember that it HAS to a priority. If it tastes like shoe leather, we all lose a future customer.

Fertility (if the cows dont get pregnant you have nothing to sell)
Productivity
Longevity
End Product

(I am sure I forgot something)

I agree absolutely as well end product quality is extremely important.

 

[gpl]

It may be worth mentioning for some that the sale catalog received from a breeder in your area is not drastically different than the directory received from a bull stud. Both have a product to sale, some are striving to provide for multiple types of customers/markets. Many are focused on the end product or terminal. After all, that's the destination for most cattle and most agree that's important.

The larger challenge is to find bulls that produce functional, fertile females that can succeed in YOUR environment. That can be humidity, arid, cold, altitude, cornstalks, low nutrition, high nutrition, fescue, etc. The cow may need to be smaller, bigger or somewhere in between depending on environment and goals.

AI is not a type of bull, only a semen delivery method. If you're looking thru the catalog, local or national, and wonder what are they thinking, keep in mind that not every bull is intended for every market or customer.

 

[Bright Raven]

You captured the essence of this thread. Worth repeating as these points are very lucid.

1. AI is not a type of bull, only a semen delivery method. If you're looking thru the catalog, local or national, and wonder what are they thinking, keep in mind that not every bull is intended for every market or customer.

2. ...the sale catalog received from a breeder in your area is not drastically different than the directory received from a bull stud. Both have a product to (sell), some are striving to provide for multiple types of customers/markets.

 

[True Grit Farms]

A couple of random thoughts based on reading some of this thread.

This nugget of advice was given to me by a friend who sells 300 bulls per year. It is so true.
An Angus cow is a great cow, the key to making her successful is to take better care of her than the guy you bought her from.

The second nugget is so very true but people tend to search for the wrong thing sometimes in this business.
Every son or daughter of the bull you sell is destined to become swinging lbs of protein. Always have the end product in mind.

In a round about way I guess that's what I've done. We started off buying all registered cows from established breeders of 20+ years, now I buy young sale barn cows. IMO There's no way a commercial operation can treat a cow better than a real seedstock producer.
This is why GAR is so successful, they recognized this important aspect of the beef industry a long time ago.

 

[Bright Raven]

...the key to making (a cow) successful is to take better care of her than the guy you bought her from.

I think I got that one covered. My cows are treated like they are guests at the Trump Spa, New York. My cows are honest, though. :cboy:

 

[Ebenezer]

Question for all or any: should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for? That is a concern I have in that if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows? To me, that is where the rub comes in. The industry is facing that now, in my way of thinking.

To say/ask it differently, if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection? Or do you poo-poo his bulls because they are not exactly what will hang on the rail?

 

[Bright Raven]

condensed down to 3 items:

1.......should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for?

2...... if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows?

3......if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection?

1. Should is not the correct word to lead that question. That implies they are in violation of some kinda rule. The answer is: they breed for whatever market they are targeting their product for. Look at the bulls in an SS catalog. Some are hyped for producing good maternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good paternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good terminal traits. Goes back the the point gpl made.

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

3. I might need some help with 3. I am not positive what you are asking.

 

[Ky hills]

Question for all or any: should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for? That is a concern I have in that if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows? To me, that is where the rub comes in. The industry is facing that now, in my way of thinking.

To say/ask it differently, if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection? Or do you poo-poo his bulls because they are not exactly what will hang on the rail?

I think those questions hit the nail on the head. A lot of thought should go into a breeding program. I have been in that scenario for quite a while, both from a purebred and commercial standpoint. It has proven very difficult to acquire, build and maintain a cowherd when starting from scratch.
In my opinion the majority of the bulls in the AI catalogs are aimed at two things calf growth and or end product. Both are important and desired, however those traits are often antagonistic and sacrifice maternal traits, inspite of the fact that many bulls are marketed as siring superior daughters and being curve benders.
I think your question is right on in a lot of cases we do tend to downplay breeding programs that don't necessarily shoot for extreme growth. I wonder at what point the true balance point is.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

I was looking through the Simmental Register magazine last night. Quite a few terminal bulls and and cows getting sold as herd builder type animals. I know there are good maternal bulls in Simmental, because I own 3 three of them, but I'm afraid the show industry has turned a lot of the sims into more looks, and less function. Break out a magnifier and check out some of the utters on the cows they are trying to sell genetics out of. :shock:

 

[Bright Raven]

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

.......I'm afraid the show industry has turned a lot of the sims into more looks, and less function.

I have a lot of respect for that opinion. However, that is not my observation. It is difficult to quantify or qualify that kind of a judgement.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Question for all or any: should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for? That is a concern I have in that if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows? To me, that is where the rub comes in. The industry is facing that now, in my way of thinking.

To say/ask it differently, if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection? Or do you poo-poo his bulls because they are not exactly what will hang on the rail?

This is exactly why AI can be so beneficial to the commercial cattleman. What one person thinks is a good cow doesn't mean it is for the next person. The giant cows of any breed aren't welcome here, even though they are really nice to look at. From what I see the show crowd are in another frame race.

 

[Ky hills]

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

.......I'm afraid the show industry has turned a lot of the sims into more looks, and less function.

I have a lot of respect for that opinion. However, that is not my observation. It is difficult to quantify or qualify that kind of a judgement.

In my opinion both observations have merit. There are outfits that take their calves out of the pasture and regular management and put them in a show string. Which is to me admirable if that show calf is an example of a successful breeding program.
I have seen several examples of the opposite end of the spectrum as well. With cattle being bred specifically for the showring. The 80's and 90's show bred Charolais that I frequently saw and unfortunately obtained some were 6' at the hip and not much depth or width and some of those lines could take the milk out of dairy cow. Probably took a while to find that out cause they wouldn't breed very early either.
Nowadays some of the Angus and Hereford show cattle I see look like they could benefit from a little of those long leg time period Bulls.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

.......I'm afraid the show industry has turned a lot of the sims into more looks, and less function.

I have a lot of respect for that opinion. However, that is not my observation. It is difficult to quantify or qualify that kind of a judgement.

Next year go to the IL state fair, and try to pick out which one is a simmental in a group of solid black heifers. You wouldn't be able to pick them out from the fully terminal aob hiefers.
Like I said take a look at some of the cows in the Register magazine. Ragged, and poorly attached utters, hatchet butted, square hipped, and fine boned. They took everything wrong with Angus, and show cattle and bred it into simmentals.
You had another thread stating that Sims should go back to the old colors. Maybe they would be better off going back to some of the old structure, and milk traits.

 

[Ebenezer]

condensed down to 3 items:

1.......should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for?

2...... if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows?

3......if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection?

1. Should is not the correct word to lead that question. That implies they are in violation of some kinda rule. The answer is: they breed for whatever market they are targeting their product for. Look at the bulls in an SS catalog. Some are hyped for producing good maternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good paternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good terminal traits. Goes back the the point gpl made.

Should is correct if we all professionally look down the road through the steps towards terminal products. The obligation of a breed or purebred breeder who says that their animals are worth anything to a commercial grower should honestly market the animals needed. What are the current complaints of breeds? Feet and legs, udders, breeding, calving ease, ... and not "I need more terminal". Pie in the sky to think that all work together, I know.

Other opinion - increasing MM is not maternal. It is a production trait that is antagonistic at a breaking point for fertility. Fertility in the cow herd is maternal. Lot of misuse of terms it seems.

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

From the Angus breed. From the greatness of bull test winners. From increasing EPDs being the best. It is plastered everywhere.

3. I might need some help with 3. I am not positive what you are asking.

Why would folks discount a bull as not being "bull test type" if he can leave better daughters? That is the gist. In other words, associations, university folks, experts and such never seem to say "enough is enough" so that better cattle can be raised in a commercial setting. The best always seems to be the extreme in production or terminal traits. The maternal bull you mentioned would probably get little notice from many - same idea. Comment on the War Party bull being overlooked is several posts back. Always has and always will go on.

 

[Supa Dexta]

Sounds like a local problem. There's some nice ones around here. Canadian show scene is a small segment though, they don't have a lot of clout with what the farmers are breeding.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

Sounds like a local problem. There's some nice ones around here. Canadian show scene is a small segment though, they don't have a lot of clout with what the farmers are breeding.

Canadian does have some dandy sim cattle, very functional, and built for longevity. Seen a few bulls I would like to have, but shipping would be a bummer.

 

[Bright Raven]

condensed down to 3 items:

1.......should the purebred breeders/suppliers/AI bull folks/whomever be breeding for the exact same things that a commercial producer is breeding for?

2...... if all purebred cattle are bred for terminal traits then where does the commercial producer get his great base of pure grade or crossbred cows to be able to sell terminally oriented crops of calves while maintaining a top end (function) commercial herd of mama cows?

3......if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection?

1. Should is not the correct word to lead that question. That implies they are in violation of some kinda rule. The answer is: they breed for whatever market they are targeting their product for. Look at the bulls in an SS catalog. Some are hyped for producing good maternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good paternal traits. Some are hyped for producing good terminal traits. Goes back the the point gpl made.

Should is correct if we all professionally look down the road through the steps towards terminal products. The obligation of a breed or purebred breeder who says that their animals are worth anything to a commercial grower should honestly market the animals needed. What are the current complaints of breeds? Feet and legs, udders, breeding, calving ease, ... and not "I need more terminal". Pie in the sky to think that all work together, I know.

Other opinion - increasing MM is not maternal. It is a production trait that is antagonistic at a breaking point for fertility. Fertility in the cow herd is maternal. Lot of misuse of terms it seems.

2. I don't follow your logic. Where do you get the concept that purebred is only geared for terminal traits? Grandmaster is a Simmental bull that many around here covet because of the maternal traits he puts in his females. On the other hand he does not throw good paternal traits.

From the Angus breed. From the greatness of bull test winners. From increasing EPDs being the best. It is plastered everywhere.

3. I might need some help with 3. I am not positive what you are asking.

Why would folks discount a bull as not being "bull test type" if he can leave better daughters? That is the gist. In other words, associations, university folks, experts and such never seem to say "enough is enough" so that better cattle can be raised in a commercial setting. The best always seems to be the extreme in production or terminal traits. The maternal bull you mentioned would probably get little notice from many - same idea. Comment on the War Party bull being overlooked is several posts back. Always has and always will go on.

My only response is on the implications of the word "should". It presumes that your concept of breeding has been endorsed by a Devine power and "should" be the way all breeding is conducted to achieve an objective that may not be the same objective as others have.

I think you and I had this discussion before. There is no "sanctified" breeding regiment that everyone "should" follow. It is a presumption that everyone else is wrong and you are right.

 

[Lazy M]

I'd be really interested in Ebenezer's opinions on what bulls in some of the major bull stud lineups he considers maternal and balanced.. For that matter I'd like to know some of the ones listed as balanced that he'd consider terminal..
Ebenezer (or anyone interested)if you get a second look through the ABS line up and pick out a few:
https://bullsearch.absglobal.com/en-us/ ... ountry/222

 

[Midtenn]

condensed down to 3

3......if a purebred breeder is raising cows that are idea as commercial mamas or would be a great 50% influence in commercial type do you expect, select or demand that the sons of those cows that go out to commercial herds to be as terminal in type and function as the ones rated as such in the catalogs and sale books for strong terminal selection?

3. I might need some help with 3. I am not positive what you are asking.[/

There is a market for all types of angus bulls....maternal, balanced, calving ease, and now more than ever...Terminal. When selling seed stock we should strongly recommend to our customers that certain bulls be used as terminal only. And we need to explain that the best bull on the place, who happens to be a balanced type, probably won't sire calves that wean quite as heavy or marble as well. That's all you can do, just try to educate your customers (without stepping on their toes), and if they don't take advice, they will learn soon enough like we all have (and still are). In the end you have to give a customer what he wants if you want to stay in business.