Truth or Judgement on Breeding

[Ebenezer]

Ebenezer, I always thought in business you needed to give the customer what they wanted not what you wanted? No one wants to buy a rat azz inbred bull.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Bright Raven]

Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why.

Thank you. I cannot help but wonder why it frustrates you. If I were looking for opportunities to be frustrated, all I have to do is look out the door at my neighbor.

Johnny is as good as gold but the manner he runs his cattle operation is disappointing. His limousine bull reminds me of a crocodile. That sounds bizarre but true. A long beast with no depth. Even seems to walk like a crocodile. However, he bought him from one of those "local breeders" who has been doing it for multiple generations. ;-) NOTE: He bought him for I think $1600 as a two year old. :lol:

Then I only have to drive 1/2 mile to my friend Adrian Craig. ( Luke, Farm Fence Solutions met him). He is Vince on steroids. He is actually one of our largest producers in the county. He runs 250 head on about 500 acres. He sees his cattle only when they come to hay and if he can get them up to sell some calves. I ask him to show Luke his handling facilities. He has a huge post driven in the center of the main sorting area to act as a shield when he is attacked. BTW: he stopped when I put my facility in. He laughed and said his cows would tear it up.

If you are looking for something to be frustrated over, why waste your time on those big fat hippo AI cattle. At least they are well fed and can be handled.
8) :lol:

Seriously, my fine friend. Your frustration seems to be misplaced. Only an opinion!

 

[True Grit Farms]

Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why.

Thank you. I cannot help but wonder why it frustrates you. If I were looking for opportunities to be frustrated, all I have to do is look out the door at my neighbor.

Johnny is as good as gold but the manner he runs his cattle operation is disappointing. His limousine bull reminds me of a crocodile. That sounds bizarre but true. A long beast with no depth. Even seems to walk like a crocodile. However, he bought him from one of those "local breeders" who has been doing it for multiple generations. ;-) NOTE: He bought him for I think $1600 as a two year old. :lol:

Then I only have to drive 1/2 mile to my friend Adrian Craig. ( Luke, Farm Fence Solutions met him). He is Vince on steroids. He is actually one of our largest producers in the county. He runs 250 head on about 500 acres. He sees his cattle only when they come to hay and if he can get them up to sell some calves. I ask him to show Luke his handling facilities. He has a huge post driven in the center of the main sorting area to act as a shield when he is attacked. BTW: he stopped when I put my facility in. He laughed and said his cows would tear it up.

If you are looking for something to be frustrated over, why waste your time on those big fat hippo AI cattle. At least they are well fed and can be handled.
8) :lol:

Seriously, my fine friend. Your frustration seems to be misplaced. Only an opinion!

We all know you have really nice cows that fit your ideals. How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.

 

[Bright Raven]

Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why.

Thank you. I cannot help but wonder why it frustrates you. If I were looking for opportunities to be frustrated, all I have to do is look out the door at my neighbor.

Johnny is as good as gold but the manner he runs his cattle operation is disappointing. His limousine bull reminds me of a crocodile. That sounds bizarre but true. A long beast with no depth. Even seems to walk like a crocodile. However, he bought him from one of those "local breeders" who has been doing it for multiple generations. ;-) NOTE: He bought him for I think $1600 as a two year old. :lol:

Then I only have to drive 1/2 mile to my friend Adrian Craig. ( Luke, Farm Fence Solutions met him). He is Vince on steroids. He is actually one of our largest producers in the county. He runs 250 head on about 500 acres. He sees his cattle only when they come to hay and if he can get them up to sell some calves. I ask him to show Luke his handling facilities. He has a huge post driven in the center of the main sorting area to act as a shield when he is attacked. BTW: he stopped when I put my facility in. He laughed and said his cows would tear it up.

If you are looking for something to be frustrated over, why waste your time on those big fat hippo AI cattle. At least they are well fed and can be handled.
8) :lol:

Seriously, my fine friend. Your frustration seems to be misplaced. Only an opinion!

We all know you have really nice cows that fit your ideals. How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.

Johnny has a decent feeding program. But his mineral is worthless. I don't think he worms or vaccinates. I know he drags dead cows down into the holler. :shock: He simply does not put any effort into selecting a bull. He also buys sale barn cattle, some are very rough. In fact, he bought 2 cows about 2 years ago and both died.

I think my bulls would do ok there if they didn't grieve themselves to death looking across the fence at how much better they had it where they came from. :lol:

 

[bse]

Eb, great discussion here, I don't think the throwaway I'm talking about will be in a sale, a reputable breeder, a few are not, wouldn't last doing that. That aside if the straw is proven why not use it. EXT how many times was he used for inbreeding? Proven to me and alot of bulls along those lines, they work!!!
It was said marketing, that's what it all comes down to. I've got a guy coming today to look at bulls, doesn't even want to see the one out of my clean up bull, so he may wind up my clean up bull this yr, it's marketing and what the extension agency suggests.

 

[Ky hills]

Here is an observation that I have made over time, bear in mind I started out with the impression that AI sired calves were superior. I will say in most cases they have performed well through weaning and into yearlings, however they are typically the first born calves so they have a slight advantage in that respect.
My way of thinking became challenged when the facts were undeniable. I run a small herd of both registered Angus, " even smaller now" and commercial Hereford and Hereford cross cows as well as a bred heifer program that utilizes mainly commercial black and BWF heifers. I run the weaned heifers all together under the same management, we have used chelated mineral for several years, and have a vaccination and worming regimen. The registered heifers mostly would be AI sired as well as some of the commercial calves also. Those calves typically as a whole would look as good or better than average at any point, the disappointment started coming in at time of pregnancy checking. The groups of heifers that had the best conception rates would be about equally proportioned of our Hereford cross calves, and the purchased commercial heifers. The registered Angus heifers and commercial calves by Angus AI bulls had significantly lower conception rates, and thus were culled. After culling most of our Angus cows and heifers that many contained well known AI pedigrees on both sides, it has become apparent to me that something was/is amiss. Another costly venture has been the bulls, we have had a high turnover rate of bulls. Again these bulls have all been AI sired and a couple were ET from several different area outfits.
I feel now that there is something to selecting for what works in our management and our environment, and am very skeptical about a lot of the bulls being marketed via AI. Not that I think they are necessarily bad individuals, just not the type and kind needed in all environments.
It is my opinion that many of the AI bulls of the Angus breed " I say Angus because I am more familiar with them than any other breed" are better suited for use as terminal sires, to which I think they would excel.
No doubt there are some well rounded bulls available just that current selective breeding trends particularly in the main stream are selecting for cattle that are perhaps focusing more on end product and not from a cow/calf perspective.

 

[Ebenezer]

How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.

I follow up on such. Seem to do well, repeat buyers, some order a replacement bull sight unseen a year ahead, I do not have enough bulls to meet the demand. More sales by customers to their friends or by seeing their calves than via advertising. I do not live in a bubble, as in, I understand. But I do like local.

 

[True Grit Farms]

How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.

I follow up on such. Seem to do well, repeat buyers, some order a replacement bull sight unseen a year ahead, I do not have enough bulls to meet the demand. More sales by customers to their friends or by seeing their calves than via advertising. I do not live in a bubble, as in, I understand. But I do like local.

You must be doing something right, repeat customers tell the story. I bought line bred bulls from Hill-Vue Farms in north Georgia and they were adverage. I'm still looking for the magic recipe, maybe our next set of bulls? Let's spin it a different way, how do you think your bulls would sell at bull test sale where folks don't know you or your operation?

 

[Ebenezer]

How do you think one of your bulls would hold up to your neighbors management style? To me that's what neither you or Ebenezer seem to understand, everyone has different management styles, property types and needs.

I follow up on such. Seem to do well, repeat buyers, some order a replacement bull sight unseen a year ahead, I do not have enough bulls to meet the demand. More sales by customers to their friends or by seeing their calves than via advertising. I do not live in a bubble, as in, I understand. But I do like local.

You must be doing something right, repeat customers tell the story. I bought line bred bulls from Hill-Vue Farms in north Georgia and they were adverage. I'm still looking for the magic recipe, maybe our next set of bulls? Let's spin it a different way, how do you think your bulls would sell at bull test sale where folks don't know you or your operation?

Poorly. Bull tests are terminal tests. Not my game.

 

[Ebenezer]

 

[Bright Raven]

Sarcasm: Here is what Nesikep would say if these were AI Sires.

You took the photo in tall grass to hide the defects in their feet and to make them look deeper. They are way over conditioned to hide their structural flaws. You put a fence brace in front of the one on the left to hide that he is broken behind the shoulder. You cut off the front of the one on the right to hide that he is wearing a straw hat between his ears.

Sarcasm off. Very nice bulls. What age are they? They look fairly mature. Are these your herd bulls? Or bulls you market? They are holding a lot of conditioning.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Are those bulls there to protect the donkeys?

 

[bball]

This has been a fascinating thread!
To the OPs original post: its clearly a judgement.
AI semen vs local bred bulls; i do not AI but many in my particular geographic region do. For several reasons:
Herd size, economics, and lack of quality local bulls available. Quality semen provided from one of the 'flavors of the year' type bulls is still a better risk than whats available locally. AI provides a small time or average joe type operation the opportunity to make substantial improvements in their calf crop in a very short amount of time. Especially when local bred bulls are lacking in availability or quality.
Having said that, if i lived near Ebenezer, i would certainly be attempting to buy one of his bulls.

Some excellent points have been raised including the 'terminal' focus of many of the catalog sauce peddlers. I suppose thats why a quality cow is such a rewarding find when you have some in your herd.

 

[Bright Raven]

This has been a fascinating thread!
To the OPs original post: its clearly a judgement.
AI semen vs local bred bulls; i do not AI but many in my particular geographic region do. For several reasons:
Herd size, economics, and lack of quality local bulls available. Quality semen provided from one of the 'flavors of the year' type bulls is still a better risk than whats available locally. AI provides a small time or average joe type operation the opportunity to make substantial improvements in their calf crop in a very short amount of time. Especially when local bred bulls are lacking in availability or quality.
Having said that, if i lived near Ebenezer, i would certainly be attempting to buy one of his bulls.

Some excellent points have been raised including the 'terminal' focus of many of the catalog sauce peddlers. I suppose thats why a quality cow is such a rewarding find when you have some in your herd.

Brad, excellent job summarizing the entire thread. As the original poster, I want to thank everyone for their participation.

 

[Ebenezer]

Sarcasm: Here is what Nesikep would say if these were AI Sires.

You took the photo in tall grass to hide the defects in their feet and to make them look deeper. They are way over conditioned to hide their structural flaws. You put a fence brace in front of the one on the left to hide that he is broken behind the shoulder. You cut off the front of the one on the right to hide that he is wearing a straw hat between his ears.

Sarcasm off. Very nice bulls. What age are they? They look fairly mature. Are these your herd bulls? Or bulls you market? They are holding a lot of conditioning.

Glad that you did not see the straw hat. Paternal brothers. Two are full brothers which also have two more maternal brothers. Other one has a full brother. Have calves by all. I will probably sell one in 2019 to cover an obligation to a customer. Otherwise he would stay here for more use. Condition is on grass and minerals. Probably 3 and 4 YO - would have to look. Just bulls.

 

[Lazy M]

Sarcasm: Here is what Nesikep would say if these were AI Sires.

You took the photo in tall grass to hide the defects in their feet and to make them look deeper. They are way over conditioned to hide their structural flaws. You put a fence brace in front of the one on the left to hide that he is broken behind the shoulder. You cut off the front of the one on the right to hide that he is wearing a straw hat between his ears.

Sarcasm off. Very nice bulls. What age are they? They look fairly mature. Are these your herd bulls? Or bulls you market? They are holding a lot of conditioning.

Glad that you did not see the straw hat. Paternal brothers. Two are full brothers which also have two more maternal brothers. Other one has a full brother. Have calves by all. I will probably sell one in 2019 to cover an obligation to a customer. Otherwise he would stay here for more use. Condition is on grass and minerals. Probably 3 and 4 YO - would have to look. Just bulls.

Just bulls my a$$! Well done Ebenezer, they look like studs

 

[Bright Raven]

Sarcasm: Here is what Nesikep would say if these were AI Sires.

You took the photo in tall grass to hide the defects in their feet and to make them look deeper. They are way over conditioned to hide their structural flaws. You put a fence brace in front of the one on the left to hide that he is broken behind the shoulder. You cut off the front of the one on the right to hide that he is wearing a straw hat between his ears.

Sarcasm off. Very nice bulls. What age are they? They look fairly mature. Are these your herd bulls? Or bulls you market? They are holding a lot of conditioning.

Glad that you did not see the straw hat. Paternal brothers. Two are full brothers which also have two more maternal brothers. Other one has a full brother. Have calves by all. I will probably sell one in 2019 to cover an obligation to a customer. Otherwise he would stay here for more use. Condition is on grass and minerals. Probably 3 and 4 YO - would have to look. Just bulls.

They look good to me. When I retired and somehow, got into raising cattle, I bought my first bull from a local Angus breeder who has been breeding for multiple generations (this is not a joke). I spent half a day at their farm. It was fun. They had 12 herd bulls and several pens of 15 month old to as high as 2 year old bulls for sale. I had a friend help me select a bull - the bull's name was Casper. The bull's sire was LJ NEW FRONTIER 0714. I posted a picture on Cattle Today and he got absolutely trashed. I guess you don't always pick a local bull that gets a lot of love.

Your picture of the three herd bulls reminds me of the 12 herd bulls that Mr. Wright had where I bought Casper.

 

[elkwc]

I have used semen from that last one. They were very nice. As nice as my best Simmental calves.

Is that War Party?
If so, you're right he was a heck of a good bull. Had a son that made some excellent calves.

Yes. Werner War Party.

I have an own daughter of his and wish I had more. Like I posted in a thread last week I'm surprised he wasn't used more. What puzzles me is the few I've seen have all IMO been good. One of our local Angus breeders we have bought a bull from sold some in the first sale of his I attended. The sons sold at the top. His daughters are producing good for him but he only used him on a limited basis. Again as breeders we each see a sire differently. But to me his progeny speak well for him.

 

[jscunn]

A couple of random thoughts based on reading some of this thread.

This nugget of advice was given to me by a friend who sells 300 bulls per year. It is so true.
An Angus cow is a great cow, the key to making her successful is to take better care of her than the guy you bought her from.

The second nugget is so very true but people tend to search for the wrong thing sometimes in this business.
Every son or daughter of the bull you sell is destined to become swinging lbs of protein. Always have the end product in mind.

 

[Ky hills]

A couple of random thoughts based on reading some of this thread.

This nugget of advice was given to me by a friend who sells 300 bulls per year. It is so true.
An Angus cow is a great cow, the key to making her successful is to take better care of her than the guy you bought her from.

The second nugget is so very true but people tend to search for the wrong thing sometimes in this business.
Every son or daughter of the bull you sell is destined to become swinging lbs of protein. Always have the end product in mind.

I have heard it said similarly of any livestock. never buy something that you can't give a better home than where it come from.
I agree with your second point as well in part. It is wise to try to select cattle that will do as much right as possible, but reality is some traits are antagonistic. Extensive focus on one or two areas of production can easily be detrimental to other vital traits.