Truth or Judgement on Breeding

[Ebenezer]

Just to throw another question out there. Does the closed linebred herd suffer because it is not taking advantage of using the bulls that have stood out from their peers in respect to growth as lets face it there is not much measured other than kilos at weaning and yearling, scrotals and scan data before they are sold. Phenotype must go a long way to saying this is an exceptional bull.

Fertility of the cow herd is 10 times more important to the cow/calf operation than growth/performance. If the linebreeding is done with the understanding that lines which turn out to be duds are either ended or outcrossed the advantage goes to the acclimatized and prepotent line that is working. An opinion.

So the closed herd misses out on introducing this stand out improved genetic package. Is it to their detriment? Or is it a case that this new bull is truly an outlier and it is unlikely that he pass his exceptional growth on to his progeny as it requires all the stars to line up like having the right dam, the right environment and the season to duplicate the one he grew up in.

Take a look at the hot off the press 2018 Edisto Bull Test report. Forage based and bulls sired by AI sires with 1000 pound WW had less than 1000 pound YW. Genetics or feed are the answer?

Also, the big one that says a good calf, the weaning weight, is it his ability to grow or is it the cows ability to feed him. Both EPD's are calculated from the same measurement, the calfs weight at weaning? The cows milk output is never measured.

Any calf can get genes to make it a growth outlier on both ends of the bell curve: Goliath or Pee Wee. MM is assumed the difference, I'm guessing, and not assumed too well, I'm opiniating! In line crosses the uncertainty of WW versus MM versus slight hybrid effect is a bigger unknown. EPDs in an unproven linecrossed calf are a bigger guess than the EPDs of a unproven linebred calf. Still not set in stone.

Personally I operate similar to Ron, we both enjoy what we do now in our retirement. We both enjoy sampling genetics from well respected herds that have been around a lot longer than our herds and to see the resulting offspring in our herd. We both admire the work that breeders have done in these closed herds to produce an even line of cattle. What we do is never going to change the cattle industry of our countries but to us old farts it is nice to drive out in our paddocks and view the resulting eye candy so carry on with this discussion but don't tear strips off us we will continue doing as we do but it is great to hear this discussion.

Same here. Not willing to pay for the club membership and be treated like hired help when I quit buying. Ingrained registered business is big boys doing motion, promotion and commotion. No different than politics of any type. I prefer the slow and peaceful life of Realville.

Since your cows are adapted to fescue, using an SI sire whose ancestors were raised on prairie grasses will work there.

Not my experience.

 

[True Grit Farms]

One question I have is with semen: will an AI stud from the West's progeny potentially have trouble with fescue tolerance? Or will the fact that the mother is adapted provide protection? My limited experience with ai seems to make me believe that the mother is sufficient, because most the bulls I've used with ai are from the West and I haven't noticed any issues with retained progeny..

Luke

Your question has been covered to some extent.

The cow is the foundation of your herd. Ebenezer whom is very knowledgeable of breeding, agrees with that principle. There in Madison County, you have a lot of fescue pasture, however, it is likely diluted with clovers and other Kentucky grasses. Furthermore, we don't have the toxicity levels that Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch has in Missouri (if anyone wants a challenge, try raising beef cattle on the forages FSSR deals with. I know their program well enough that my challenges here are a piece of cake compared to theirs). Since your cows are adapted to fescue, using an SI sire whose ancestors were raised on prairie grasses will work there. Remember, you don't have to keep the bull there, only his semen. And his calves will adapt as they transition from a milk diet to pasture.

Therefore, the Dam that has acquired resistance to endophyte toxicity will provide some protection.

BTW: whether resistance to endophyte toxicity is entirely genetic is being studied in a program the Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch is enrolled in.

That sounds like a pasture management problem to me. You can manage your pastures to keep fescue in check, it's easy to kill grass out of legumes. CB has this right, In the cattle business your a grass farmer first then a cattle operation. We're going to another grass and pasture management class put on by UGA Saturday in south Georgia. I'll ask the grass specialist again if UGA would please work on developing a warm season fescue for use in the southeast.

 

[Bright Raven]

Not willing to pay for the club membership and be treated like hired help when I quit buying. Ingrained registered business is big boys doing motion, promotion and commotion. No different than politics of any type. I prefer the slow and peaceful life of Realville.

Ebenezer

"Realville" is defined differently for everyone.

Why do you imply that breeding practices that result in an AI sire are any different than the breeding practices that produce a "live bull sale"?

In many of your posts, you imply that if you don't directly state that. Where, other than anecdotal, is your evidence that AI sire breeding practices are somehow inferior to the breeding practices that produce "live bull sales"?

Let me acknowledge that, of course, there are bad breeding practices in both AI sire and "live bull sale" programs. From what I have seen, many of the breeders who go the "live bull sales" route don't do it right either. In fact, the breeding practices of some of the "live bull sales" programs around here are awful. Add to that the fact that most actually use AI sires or at least bulls produced from AI sires.

We all know in every vocation, some people do it right and others don't.

 

[Lazy M]

One question I have is with semen: will an AI stud from the West's progeny potentially have trouble with fescue tolerance? Or will the fact that the mother is adapted provide protection? My limited experience with ai seems to make me believe that the mother is sufficient, because most the bulls I've used with ai are from the West and I haven't noticed any issues with retained progeny..

Luke

Your question has been covered to some extent.

The cow is the foundation of your herd. Ebenezer whom is very knowledgeable of breeding, agrees with that principle. There in Madison County, you have a lot of fescue pasture, however, it is likely diluted with clovers and other Kentucky grasses. Furthermore, we don't have the toxicity levels that Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch has in Missouri (if anyone wants a challenge, try raising beef cattle on the forages FSSR deals with. I know their program well enough that my challenges here are a piece of cake compared to theirs). Since your cows are adapted to fescue, using an SI sire whose ancestors were raised on prairie grasses will work there. Remember, you don't have to keep the bull there, only his semen. And his calves will adapt as they transition from a milk diet to pasture.

Therefore, the Dam that has acquired resistance to endophyte toxicity will provide some protection.

BTW: whether resistance to endophyte toxicity is entirely genetic is being studied in a program the Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch is enrolled in.

That sounds like a pasture management problem to me. You can manage your pastures to keep fescue in check, it's easy to kill grass out of legumes. CB has this right, In the cattle business your a grass farmer first then a cattle operation. We're going to another grass and pasture management class put on by UGA Saturday in south Georgia. I'll ask the grass specialist again if UGA would please work on developing a warm season fescue for use in the southeast.

I agree that the fescue could be controlled to an extent. However, I'd rather have cattle that prosper utilizing the local grasses rather than make the grasses work for the cattle.

 

[Nesikep]

Not willing to pay for the club membership and be treated like hired help when I quit buying. Ingrained registered business is big boys doing motion, promotion and commotion. No different than politics of any type. I prefer the slow and peaceful life of Realville.

Ebenezer

"Realville" is defined differently for everyone.

Why do you imply that breeding practices that result in an AI sire are any different than the breeding practices that produce a "live bull sale"?

In many of your posts, you imply that if you don't directly state that. Where, other than anecdotal, is your evidence that AI sire breeding practices are somehow inferior to the breeding practices that produce "live bull sales"?

Let me acknowledge that, of course, there are bad breeding practices in both AI sire and "live bull sale" programs. From what I have seen, many of the breeders who go the "live bull sales" route don't do it right either. In fact, the breeding practices of some of the "live bull sales" programs around here are awful. Add to that the fact that most actually use AI sires or at least bulls produced from AI sires.

We all know in every vocation, some people do it right and others don't.

I think that might be a key... and with some AI breeders looking just at EPD's and chasing names, single trait selection, etc and might have seen a retouched picture of said sire, and don't know what cheerio banders are, it makes it easy for a lot not so great (in real life) animals to be considered seedstock. That bull I pictured above is a great example of something that looks good on paper but that I wouldn't want at all.

The opposite is also true to an extent, Live cover breeders look at an animal without looking at the pedigree enough perhaps, but at least the animal looks the part.. If it's linebred and the herd and pedigree are there to see, while you might not have much for numerical EPD's, you should see consistency.

I don't think I'll ever have a completely closed herd, I will introduce new genetics, but when I find something that works I'll try and set those traits (more homozygous animals) before I start looking at the next trait I want.

 

[Ebenezer]

Not willing to pay for the club membership and be treated like hired help when I quit buying. Ingrained registered business is big boys doing motion, promotion and commotion. No different than politics of any type. I prefer the slow and peaceful life of Realville.

Ebenezer

"Realville" is defined differently for everyone.

Why do you imply that breeding practices that result in an AI sire are any different than the breeding practices that produce a "live bull sale"?

In many of your posts, you imply that if you don't directly state that. Where, other than anecdotal, is your evidence that AI sire breeding practices are somehow inferior to the breeding practices that produce "live bull sales"?

Let me acknowledge that, of course, there are bad breeding practices in both AI sire and "live bull sale" programs. From what I have seen, many of the breeders who go the "live bull sales" route don't do it right either. In fact, the breeding practices of some of the "live bull sales" programs around here are awful. Add to that the fact that most actually use AI sires or at least bulls produced from AI sires.

We all know in every vocation, some people do it right and others don't.

This went over my head. What is "live bull sales" and what are "breeding practices that result in an AI sire"? I'm missing something. Thanks.

 

[Bright Raven]

This went over my head. What is "live bull sales" and what are "breeding practices that result in an AI sire"? I'm missing something. Thanks.

Ebenezer,

Maybe I am misinterpreting some of your posts. My purpose is only to understand. I read your posts carefully because you are a knowledgeable breeder IMHO. You often quote references and have experience with both cattle and goats. You have mentioned books you have read and periodicals. So, let's start with the definitions:

Live Bull Sales = the marketing and purchase of breeding bulls off the farm where they are raised. In contrast, to the marketing of semen of bulls that are raised on a farm, selected for stud service and only their semen is sold. You might say breeding bulls on the hoof verses a bull in a liquid nitrogen tank.

Breeding practices that result in an AI sire = the methods of breeding, selecting and culling bulls to produce bulls that are collected for stud service by semen sales.

Again, I might be misinterpreting your posts but some comments you have made seem to imply that the breeding practices under which bulls are produced for semen sales are inferior to breeding practices used by breeders who produce bulls on the hoof for seedstock.

PS: if it is still confusing, I will try to fix it. Just take a stab at it and I can go from there. Maybe it is moot, if I am not getting your intended meaning.

 

[Nesikep]

The way I see it is your first impression of a "AI Sire" is going to be his EPD sheet.. in order to get any attention that has to be outstanding, and everything else about the bull is secondary
On a live bull, you're more likely to see at least a picture of the bull first, then EPD's after, if you like what you see

It's a lot like manipulating Google search results to get to the top of the list and get that first impression.. Ideally the bull has both the looks and the EPD, but depending on his marketing avenue will dictate which gets you the "clicks"

 

[Bright Raven]

The way I see it is your first impression of a "AI Sire" is going to be his EPD sheet.. in order to get any attention that has to be outstanding, and everything else about the bull is secondary
On a live bull, you're more likely to see at least a picture of the bull first, then EPD's after, if you like what you see

It's a lot like manipulating Google search results to get to the top of the list and get that first impression.. Ideally the bull has both the looks and the EPD, but depending on his marketing avenue will dictate which gets you the "clicks"

I am basically repeating what I have learned from Fire Sweep. She helps me pick my AI sires.

First, we look for PB Simmental bulls offered by the reputable semen sales. There are good percentage bulls but we focus on PB.

Second, we consider semen quality. SS and Genex both do a good job collecting and packaging straws. It doesn't matter how good the bull is if you cannot get a conception.

Third, we look at the phenotype.

Fourth, we look at the pedigree. Fire Sweep knows the Simmental cow families. How their feet, udders, etc rate.

Fifth, we look at the EPDs.

Sixth, we look at the bull's traits and match it to the cow. For example, if a cow needs more depth, then we help her out with a bull that adds depth. If a cow tends to throw a giant calf, we look for a bull that moderates size and weight.

 

[kentuckyguy]

One question I have is with semen: will an AI stud from the West's progeny potentially have trouble with fescue tolerance? Or will the fact that the mother is adapted provide protection? My limited experience with ai seems to make me believe that the mother is sufficient, because most the bulls I've used with ai are from the West and I haven't noticed any issues with retained progeny..

Luke

Your question has been covered to some extent.

The cow is the foundation of your herd. Ebenezer whom is very knowledgeable of breeding, agrees with that principle. There in Madison County, you have a lot of fescue pasture, however, it is likely diluted with clovers and other Kentucky grasses. Furthermore, we don't have the toxicity levels that Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch has in Missouri (if anyone wants a challenge, try raising beef cattle on the forages FSSR deals with. I know their program well enough that my challenges here are a piece of cake compared to theirs). Since your cows are adapted to fescue, using an SI sire whose ancestors were raised on prairie grasses will work there. Remember, you don't have to keep the bull there, only his semen. And his calves will adapt as they transition from a milk diet to pasture.

Therefore, the Dam that has acquired resistance to endophyte toxicity will provide some protection.

BTW: whether resistance to endophyte toxicity is entirely genetic is being studied in a program the Fire Sweep Simmental Ranch is enrolled in.

That sounds like a pasture management problem to me. You can manage your pastures to keep fescue in check, it's easy to kill grass out of legumes. CB has this right, In the cattle business your a grass farmer first then a cattle operation. We're going to another grass and pasture management class put on by UGA Saturday in south Georgia. I'll ask the grass specialist again if UGA would please work on developing a warm season fescue for use in the southeast.

I have to completely disagree with this. Trying to fight fescue in Kentucky is pretty much pointless and also not a good idea. In 1942 fescue seed was released to farmers in Kentucky at almost $1.00/pound according to my wife's grandfather. People here were broke then but managed to come up with the funds to buy fescue seed due to its ability to thrive under our conditions.

So why fight something that grows well in your area and puts pounds on your cattle. There's no doubt fescue toxicity is not a myth but I also believe through proper breeding it can become a non issue.

Our cows always breeed back within 60 days of calving, never lose tail the end of their tail, and gain weight on fescue pasture. Cattle can become adapted to about anything through proper selection.

I will definitely try and buy cattle that perform on my pasture as opposed spending a fortune trying to change my pasture to suit my cows.

It would be pointless anyways because we are surrounded by fescue.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I have to completely disagree with this. Trying to fight fescue in Kentucky is pretty much pointless and also not a good idea. In 1942 fescue seed was released to farmers in Kentucky at almost $1.00/pound according to my wife's grandfather. People here were broke then but managed to come up with the funds to buy fescue seed due to its ability to thrive under our conditions.

So why fight something that grows well in your area and puts pounds on your cattle. There's no doubt fescue toxicity is not a myth but I also believe through proper breeding it can become a non issue.

Our cows always breeed back within 60 days of calving, never lose tail the end of their tail, and gain weight on fescue pasture. Cattle can become adapted to about anything through proper selection.

I will definitely try and buy cattle that perform on my pasture as opposed spending a fortune trying to change my pasture to suit my cows.

It would be pointless anyways because we are surrounded by fescue.

Great point! We sell seed stock, of which MOST stay local. I would quickly be out of business if I "got rid of" my hot fescue! I have pride knowing my cattle will do well, if not SUPER, on a farm feeding the same or BETTER than I have. I think I manage my grass just fine, since we are pushing 35 cows with calves, numerous heifers, and several bulls (developing to sell) on about 36 grazable acres. Cows get grass only. They must breed back, and produce a calf.
With that said, we do have a variety of grass growing, not just fescue. I just drilled some red clover and persist orchard in a few fields that are getting thin.

 

[Ebenezer]

Maybe I am misinterpreting some of your posts. My purpose is only to understand. I read your posts carefully because you are a knowledgeable breeder IMHO. You often quote references and have experience with both cattle and goats. You have mentioned books you have read and periodicals. So, let's start with the definitions:

I just have old and new scars. :lol:

Live Bull Sales = the marketing and purchase of breeding bulls off the farm where they are raised. In contrast, to the marketing of semen of bulls that are raised on a farm, selected for stud service and only their semen is sold. You might say breeding bulls on the hoof verses a bull in a liquid nitrogen tank.

Not a difference to me. The quality of the breeder's skill and character and the cattle quality, function and fit are more important than either live or frozen.

Breeding practices that result in an AI sire = the methods of breeding, selecting and culling bulls to produce bulls that are collected for stud service by semen sales.

I do not care for the "favorite herd" practices of stud companies. That practice implies a superior herd versus most buyers being herds where improvement is needed. But I also do not get thrilled that unproven bulls are promoted. So I have quirks of not wanting to be rooked or not wanting to rook others.

Again, I might be misinterpreting your posts but some comments you have made seem to imply that the breeding practices under which bulls are produced for semen sales are inferior to breeding practices used by breeders who produce bulls on the hoof for seedstock.

This might explain some of it. I am not interested in breeding all cattle (or sheep) for terminal traits as a priority. Sheep folks have been smarter for longer in that they had and have maternal breeds and terminal breeds. Sheep folks are not scared of a 3 way cross (two maternals and one terminal). And, honestly, there might be less breed purity in most or some sheep breeds. Anyhow, I see terminal type cattle (AI bulls, on the hoof or however you bring them to the farm) as plentiful. If I want high IMF I would use Wagyu or GAR and sell all resultant calves as terminals. If I want high growth or big this or huge that, the EPDs have higher heritability and any calves by a bull or straws from such would be terminal and sold as such. Just pick what you want or need in a proven bull and make your money raising and selling great terminal calves. Where beef breeds miss the mark is in sorting for and encouraging maternal function to work like a well oiled machine. That is my opinion and I am just the opposite in focus in that the cows are the key and the bulls are a byproduct that are quite useful because of the function and ease of use of the cows. There is a lot of lip service on this topic but not much action. Traits that need to be improved are setting up new EPDs: calving ease, mothering traits, HP, feet, legs, udders, fertility, disposition, ... a lot of folks see problems and do not know how to fix them, it seems. Again, an opinion.

PS: if it is still confusing, I will try to fix it. Just take a stab at it and I can go from there. Maybe it is moot, if I am not getting your intended meaning.

Like a test with essay question - I ave no idea if the answer was right or not. Tell me what I am not getting and it will be appreciated. Honestly, I am not mainstream and do not plan to be.

 

[Ebenezer]

I have to completely disagree with this. Trying to fight fescue in Kentucky is pretty much pointless and also not a good idea. In 1942 fescue seed was released to farmers in Kentucky at almost $1.00/pound according to my wife's grandfather. People here were broke then but managed to come up with the funds to buy fescue seed due to its ability to thrive under our conditions.

So why fight something that grows well in your area and puts pounds on your cattle. There's no doubt fescue toxicity is not a myth but I also believe through proper breeding it can become a non issue.

Our cows always breeed back within 60 days of calving, never lose tail the end of their tail, and gain weight on fescue pasture. Cattle can become adapted to about anything through proper selection.

I will definitely try and buy cattle that perform on my pasture as opposed spending a fortune trying to change my pasture to suit my cows.

It would be pointless anyways because we are surrounded by fescue.

Great point! We sell seed stock, of which MOST stay local. I would quickly be out of business if I "got rid of" my hot fescue! I have pride knowing my cattle will do well, if not SUPER, on a farm feeding the same or BETTER than I have. I think I manage my grass just fine, since we are pushing 35 cows with calves, numerous heifers, and several bulls (developing to sell) on about 36 grazable acres. Cows get grass only. They must breed back, and produce a calf.
With that said, we do have a variety of grass growing, not just fescue. I just drilled some red clover and persist orchard in a few fields that are getting thin.

I'm with both of you guys. fit cattle to the fescue and do the best support that is cost effective: minerals, legumes, rotation, ... :clap: Right on!

 

[Bright Raven]

Like a test with essay question - I ave no idea if the answer was right or not. Tell me what I am not getting and it will be appreciated. Honestly, I am not mainstream and do not plan to be.

You got a 96%. Good job.

That does help me understand your philosophy. I appreciate your response and I respect your knowledge.

The only thing I will add is an observation. I would like your response to this observation.

I read your posts about breeding practices. Some convey a level of "frustration" with the current "state of affairs" relating to cattle breeding. Am I picking up something or am I misinterpreting your words? I am just curious. Maybe frustration is not the right word but if I am detecting something, you will know what I mean. If it is my imagination, then you can tell me so.

 

[bse]

which came first the chicken or the egg?
To me it doesnt matter if its a bull on the hoof or a straw, you better do your homework!!!!
If a big outfit inbreeds and weeds out the problems, could that not be a good investment? they have done the work for me, Why because they can afford the throwaways i cant. the predictabilty is there.
went to a dispersal yrs ago was asked, what do you think about the cattle, i wasnt impressed, but when i got back and seen them compared to others, very impressed because they were all good.. most A I sired
ive used straws from all over no issues, maybe its the cow but there in my enviroment when there born, now there are lines of cattle with more hair, slicker, feet and leg issues, goes back to homework.
if your gonna sell bulls through a bull test or the likes they better be A I if you want to make money, not saying there better, just the nature of the business around here.

 

[Bright Raven]

To me it doesnt matter if its a bull on the hoof or a straw, you better do your homework!!!!
If a big outfit inbreeds and weeds out the problems, could that not be a good investment? they have done the work for me, Why because they can afford the throwaways i cant. the predictabilty is there.

That is my point. I don't have the remaining years or generations of cattle to move mountains. I have to stand on the shoulders of those who have done the work for me. It still requires doing your homework.

 

[wbvs58]

Would it be fair to say that in the days before Artificial Insemination that there were more closed herds linebreeding? I would imagine that with the uptake of AI that these herds experienced a lot of heterosis as they were able to sample a lot more outcross genetics.

Ken

 

[Bright Raven]

Would it be fair to say that in the days before Artificial Insemination that there were more closed herds linebreeding? I would imagine that with the uptake of AI that these herds experienced a lot of heterosis as they were able to sample a lot more outcross genetics.

Ken

I would think so.

 

[Ebenezer]

I read your posts about breeding practices. Some convey a level of "frustration" with the current "state of affairs" relating to cattle breeding. Am I picking up something or am I misinterpreting your words? I am just curious. Maybe frustration is not the right word but if I am detecting something, you will know what I mean. If it is my imagination, then you can tell me so.

Frustration or maybe folks are willing to be suckered and I wonder why. I will tell a story or two.

Went to a state Angus field day years back at probably the biggest reg. operation at the time. I got there early, got to talking to a farm employee, asked about another breed so he said come ride with me to feed and I'll show them to you. We drove miles away, got to a big pasture, checked minerals for the Angus there and then went thru to the back pasture to see the other breed. Coming out about 100+ Angus cows and a couple of bulls (prior to DNA testing) came out of the woods. I asked what the group was. It was the part of the registered herd that did not breed back in time and they periodically did preg checks and if some were bred they were offered as registered bred cows. How did the calf know who his daddy was? Who would want a late bred cow? Same guy and farm are still big and in business.

Defect issues were hot a few years ago. I did not see why the problem could not just be axed and start with all knowns to be deleted, the BOD was in turmoil, politics were hot, some of the ingrained staff felt that they had position over members, ... . Seemed that a cleansing and openness was the best policy. I called the state delegate. I told him that he owed the clarity of association issues and resolution to the members more like me who run small herds. His actual answer was, "I have to look out for myself".

A number of bull sales here in recent years have been to replace short functioned well bred, high prices, over fed bulls from one source that went lame. Is this a medical issue or a lack of proper breeding, selection, culling, feeding and pricing? The money never comes back to the losers.

Just got a sales catalog from a nationally recognized Angus herd. No need to name as some here love them as a "source", a spring of life, a well of clear water, a trek to the top of the mountain to speak to the guru. (A bit of exaggeration on my part but I get paid by the word, you know! ;-) ) The foundation cows, the mothers of all life, are rivaling lard hogs in type. Maybe I jest a bit but not more than a little. Let me say that if they had a wider muzzle, they could be hippos! Is that a real cow? An ideal cow? A cow to make other folks think that is worth more money or the offspring are more valuable? It is some sort of hypnotism to make folks oo and ah over misfits. I have no idea.

A cow- the idea cow. Is she better as high fertility, easy function, long lasting, no frills or as a blob with high $B numbers. Which one does the association make the most money from? Which one (and her offspring) does the commercial cow/calf guy do the best with. After all, the whole game is terminal - all go to the grinder at some point. In between for some, it's all about show, extra $'s from the ones who are told that they are at the bottom of the ladder or merely an ego trip for some.

Just reading the tea leaves.

If a big outfit inbreeds and weeds out the problems, could that not be a good investment? they have done the work for me, Why because they can afford the throwaways i cant. the predictabilty is there.

Guess what, there are few inbred cattle sold or even bred in the USA. The throw aways might be in the sales catalog - how would you know or not know? In a nationwide sale, less than 10% of the folks who get a catalog or look on the internet are buyers. The old rule of thumb in business is that buyer turnover is 10% a year. Lets' say that 7% of the folks who get a catalog are buyers. How many folks have to bid to get all lots sold? 14% max of the lookers because all one lot needs to sell are two bidders. Just because there are long term sales and sources do not automatically equal quality and satisifaction. The entire buyer's list can theoretically turn over every 10 years.

ive used straws from all over no issues, maybe its the cow but there in my enviroment when there born, now there are lines of cattle with more hair, slicker, feet and leg issues, goes back to homework.

That has not been my experiences. I like to joke that if I have not tossed it out already, I have some great semen for sale at a cheap price. Like you said - homework and maybe some prayer for a big dose of divine intervention.

if your gonna sell bulls through a bull test or the likes they better be A I if you want to make money, not saying there better, just the nature of the business around here.

That is marketing, unfortunately, and not breeding.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Ebenezer, I always thought in business you needed to give the customer what they wanted not what you wanted? No one wants to buy a rat azz inbred bull.