Breeding bull to daughters

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Pineywoods230

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I'd like thoughts and experiences from breeding a bull directly to his offspring heifers. I know it's frowned upon but I also know several people who do it. I'd like to grow my herd without buying more cows. Also really happy with my bull right now and would like to continue with him.

Any offspring from the father/daughter would be sold. Heifers only kept from my current unrelated stock.

Anyone tried this for good or bad?
 
I'd like thoughts and experiences from breeding a bull directly to his offspring heifers. I know it's frowned upon but I also know several people who do it. I'd like to grow my herd without buying more cows. Also really happy with my bull right now and would like to continue with him.

Any offspring from the father/daughter would be sold. Heifers only kept from my current unrelated stock.

Anyone tried this for good or bad?
I know people that married their first cousins. Their kids are all deaf.
 
A lot of defects, hereditary diseases, etc., are recessive. If they were dominant, then the populations would be wiped out. When you inbreed, you increase the chances of those recessive traits showing up. Not saying they will be born with 3 heads, or anything. Just when you breed something heterazygous for ANY trait, with something else also heterazygous for it, you stand a 25% chance of the offspring having it.
 
A lot of defects, hereditary diseases, etc., are recessive. If they were dominant, then the populations would be wiped out. When you inbreed, you increase the chances of those recessive traits showing up. Not saying they will be born with 3 heads, or anything. Just when you breed something heterazygous for ANY trait, with something else also heterazygous for it, you stand a 25% chance of the offspring having it.
That also goes for the qualities as well?

I've heard
 
That also goes for the qualities as well?

I've heard
True. That is why inbreeding and line breeding in horses have occurred. It can increase the chance of the offspring having the good traits you desire. I have a friend that bought a herd of Longhorns in the late 90's. He did the horseback concessions at a 5 star resort close by. This resort offered authentic trail drive experiences. 2 or 3 neighbor farms were between his and the resort, and he'd take these guests on an all day trail drive, from the resort back to his place.
The man never sold one, or bought any new ones, never cut a bull calf, just let them raise , fathers bred to daughters and granddaughters, cows bred to sons and grandsons. When one would die, he'd sell the skull and hide to a Longhorn franchise. Used to. Now, there isn't a one out there that stand taller than my beltline, and they just about all have terrible underbites, and terrible feet. And knock-kneed and splay-footed. They look like a caricature in a cartoon. Hell, he could probably put these "mini-longhorns" on Craig's list and sell them for $5k each!!!. Inbreeding is the number one tool for developing these mini cattle, goats, horses, and donkeys.
 
As mentioned, "IF" there are any recessive "problems", they sure can show up. But, it is called INBREEDING if there is a screw up - it's called LINEBREEDING when it works out great.
The bull in my Avatar is an embryo bull I raised, sold semen all over the nation. First time I ever used a live bull to cover my herd. We used him several years. We had 1/2 sisters in the herd. I think he bred 1 or 2 with no issues. But, he was DNA tested for genetic defects.
 
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As mentioned, "IF" there are any recessive "problems", they sure can show up. But, it is called INBREEDING if there is a screw up - it's called LINEBREEDING when it works out great.
The bull in my Avatar is an embryo bull I raised, sold semen all over the nation. First time I ever used a live bull to cover my herd. We used him several years. We had 1/2 sisters in the herd. I think he bred 1 or 2 with no issues. But, he was DNA tested for genetic defects.
It is a little different with horses. Inbreeding is sire to daughter, son to dam, or full siblings. LIne breeding is breeding grandsons and daughters to grand sons or daughters. When you see the same sire appear on the top and bottom of the papers, we call it line breeding. This can still concentrate recessive bad traits, Line bred Poco Bueno horses have a better chance of having HERDA. Line bred Imprsseive horses stand a better chance of being HYPP positive. For most commercial producers, you will be a lot better off to not breed your bull to his daughters.
 
Inbreeding (father x daughter, sibling x sibling) and linebreeding (2nd cousins, etc.) are all tools to reproduce the best traits. You have to know what faults your bull has or produces and what faults the cows have. You shouldn't breed related animals with the same or similar flaws to each other related or not. When doing close breeding you have to know the bloodlines (preferably for several generations) that you are using in order to be safe using inbreeding since a genetic flaw from several generations back could show up if it meets the same gene in a new breeding. Inbreeding and strong linebreeding has been used for many years to establish new breeds, establish certain traits, etc. It is why some bloodlines have a reputation for producing heavy muscling, milkiness, low birth weights, etc. These were all selected for using inbreeding and linebreeding.

Breeders use this tool to produce animals (stud animals) that are dominant for certain traits. I have used both linebreeding and inbreeding in many species with excellent results. It will intensify all genetic traits, both good and bad. By intensifying the good traits is how breeders have gotten better animals over the years. The animals who produce bad traits are culled from the breeding program. However, you have to know the flaws in your animals as well as the good points to effectively use this method.

If you have used this bull successfully, he is not related tightly to the cows, and you like what he has produced in daughters, go ahead and use him on those daughters again. You should be safe for the first generation. Be sure to cull heavily when selecting replacement heifers from this group. If you like these first cross heifers and want to retain them for replacements, you should bring in an outcross bull to use on them. If you don't want to buy or can't afford to buy another bull this year, you can breed to his daughters and granddaughters for another year. All offspring from the granddaughter cross should be terminal and sold. Replace the bull next year with an outcross.

This holds true for linebreeding when you get too tight in your pedigrees. When inbreeding and linebreeding you need to realize that if those crosses turn up genetic problems you must sell all the offspring.
 
I'd like thoughts and experiences from breeding a bull directly to his offspring heifers. I know it's frowned upon but I also know several people who do it. I'd like to grow my herd without buying more cows. Also really happy with my bull right now and would like to continue with him.

Any offspring from the father/daughter would be sold. Heifers only kept from my current unrelated stock.

Anyone tried this for good or bad?
Yes I have done it more than once and have no issue doing it again for the same reason. I had heifers that I wanted to go to a certain place and I wanted to use their dad a year or two more before rotating him out.

Just breeding back once should not be an issue but I wouldn't retain any thing from them. Breeds like Beefmaster say you can breed back several times.
 
Genetics is a fascinating subject. Aside from a risk of problematic recessive genes getting expressed in the offspring of father daughter crosses when the offspring ends up with a pair of the recessive genes which means at that point the genes then get expressed, you start to see other problems arise that become more prominent with successive generations. The case of the longhorn cattle mentioned above is a prime example. That being said, if you end up with an excellent heifer from the bull/daughter cross, which is highly possible, you might not want to be so quick to sell her because she is inbred. Breeding an animal like this to an unrelated bull - just the one breeding - will eliminate ALL, yes, ALL the inbredness that has occurred. The same would be for ANY generation level of inbredness. Consider for a moment what I mean by this. Say the inbred animal has 85% of its genes as homozygous (an extreme case of inbreeding). Evaluate for a second when you breed this animal to a totally unrelated animal. EVERY SINGLE PAIR of genes will each have 1 gene from the inbred animal and 1 gene from the totally unrelated animal. THE RESULTING ANIMAL IS NOT INBRED. An inbred animal by definition has some number of identical paired genes originating from the same individual in the animals heredity. The resulting animal has NO IDENTICAL PAIRS and is therefore NOT inbred. This being said, DON'T cross a bull with his granddaughter unless you are trying to accentuate a specific trait. The inbreeding risk at that point for problems is likely higher than you want to take unless, as I said, you are aiming for a specific trait and are willing to take that risk, and the consequences, when the risk comes to fruition.
 
Genetics is a fascinating subject. Aside from a risk of problematic recessive genes getting expressed in the offspring of father daughter crosses when the offspring ends up with a pair of the recessive genes which means at that point the genes then get expressed, you start to see other problems arise that become more prominent with successive generations. The case of the longhorn cattle mentioned above is a prime example. That being said, if you end up with an excellent heifer from the bull/daughter cross, which is highly possible, you might not want to be so quick to sell her because she is inbred. Breeding an animal like this to an unrelated bull - just the one breeding - will eliminate ALL, yes, ALL the inbredness that has occurred. The same would be for ANY generation level of inbredness. Consider for a moment what I mean by this. Say the inbred animal has 85% of its genes as homozygous (an extreme case of inbreeding). Evaluate for a second when you breed this animal to a totally unrelated animal. EVERY SINGLE PAIR of genes will each have 1 gene from the inbred animal and 1 gene from the totally unrelated animal. THE RESULTING ANIMAL IS NOT INBRED. An inbred animal by definition has some number of identical paired genes originating from the same individual in the animals heredity. The resulting animal has NO IDENTICAL PAIRS and is therefore NOT inbred. This being said, DON'T cross a bull with his granddaughter unless you are trying to accentuate a specific trait. The inbreeding risk at that point for problems is likely higher than you want to take unless, as I said, you are aiming for a specific trait and are willing to take that risk, and the consequences, when the risk comes to fruition.
Inbreeding can be good, but it isn't without risk.
 
...you start to see other problems arise that become more prominent with successive generations. The case of the longhorn cattle mentioned above is a prime example. Breeding an animal like this to an unrelated bull - just the one breeding - will eliminate ALL, yes, ALL the inbredness that has occurred. The same would be for ANY generation level of inbredness. Consider for a moment what I mean by this. Say the inbred animal has 85% of its genes as homozygous (an extreme case of inbreeding). Evaluate for a second when you breed this animal to a totally unrelated animal. EVERY SINGLE PAIR of genes will each have 1 gene from the inbred animal and 1 gene from the totally unrelated animal. THE RESULTING ANIMAL IS NOT INBRED.
I don't believe you can make that case although I think I see where you are coming from.

In the example of those inbred Longhorns, if you bred one of them to an unrelated animal I doubt the offspring would be without defects and appear completely normal. Inbreeding can change more than the order of alleles. It can change how the proteins are expressed that determine dominant/recessive and degrees of heritability.
 

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