Breeding bull to daughters

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You can say that... but you can't prove it.

But I agree with your larger point that there are plenty of good animals that go through the sale barn and can be had cheaper than raising replacement heifers... and that from me, a guy that raised and sold replacement heifers for a profit. It's crazy how people will pay big dollars for bred heifers and won't buy cows for a third the price and will sell for the same price after raising a couple or more calves.
If you are in this business you have always got to be on the lookout for the best value. Any one who operates with blinders one way on the other will miss out. I had a group of heifers pushing 10 years backs. I got a call from a friend that wanted to sell some cows/ heifers to generate some cash he had to put up for a big lease. I went and looked and found some stuff I liked and sold some of the replacement heifers to cover the purchase. I knew him, his operation, and his cattle. The stars lined up and it worked out. Those cows/ heifers produce a good number of replacements for me now.

Buying bred heifers doesn't make sense to me either. If I cant control the vast majority of the production line then I agree, I might as well buy a cow ready to go.
 
If you are in this business you have always got to be on the lookout for the best value.

Buying bred heifers doesn't make sense to me either.

Well it worked well for my customers because they had their focus on other things. The ones that kept up with their numbers claimed that my animals were more likely to last longer and breed easier, as well as raise more calf.

Of course the funny thing was that I was producing my replacement heifers that I sold them from their cows culled for age, and they knew it.

A good example of how differing strategies can work well for different people.
 
You can say that... but you can't prove it.

But I agree with your larger point that there are plenty of good animals that go through the sale barn and can be had cheaper than raising replacement heifers... and that from me, a guy that raised and sold replacement heifers for a profit. It's crazy how people will pay big dollars for bred heifers and won't buy cows for a third the price and will sell for the same price after raising a couple or more calves.
Nor can you prove that there's not. And I agree with you about the cows. You can buy a cow that has had a calf or two, get 3 or 4 more off of her, and sell her for the same money. People like those giving too much for replacement heifers can be found in all animal endeavors. People will pay more for a yearling colt or filly than they will for a finished horse. And I have seen people ay as much or more for a beagle or bird dog or coon hound pup than they could buy a seasoned filed trial contender for. I guess it is the possible potential they pay for. The idea that this just might be the next Secretariat.
 
You will never understand because you are a car salesman. It has nothing to do with "the best". It has to do with what works for your operation. If you were actually a cow guy you would understand that. You use to admit that yourself.

I still remember when you came on this board. I'm not sure when you gave yourself a promotion but as long as you still think an old Beefmaster cow with horns has LH in it... you are still a worm. Stay in your lane.
No, never sold cars. I wish I could have. They make good money around here,..,the good ones do 6 figures a year in commission. Just to many nights and weekends in it for me. Had a high-end horse trailer dealership during the Bush years, though, and did very well. What I said was that I can't stand a cow. The only reason I ever fooled with them was for my horses. I usually call old Beefmaster cows old BMs, though., A worm huh? Well, you are more like a gnat. Small and insignificant , ,yet extremely annoying. You just need to worry about learning to drive well enough to even get on the highway, and not worry about what lane others are in.
 
No, never sold cars. I wish I could have. They make good money around here,..,the good ones do 6 figures a year in commission. Just to many nights and weekends in it for me. Had a high-end horse trailer dealership during the Bush years, though, and did very well. What I said was that I can't stand a cow. The only reason I ever fooled with them was for my horses. I usually call old Beefmaster cows old BMs, though., A worm huh? Well, you are more like a gnat. Small and insignificant , ,yet extremely annoying. You just need to worry about learning to drive well enough to even get on the highway, and not worry about what lane others are in.
Like I said... I still remember when you first showed up here. Remember when you use to tag me all the time to answer people's questions. Now, you are telling me how it works. 🤣
 
We are having a cow sale here in 3 weeks. For health reasons and a lack of hay i am selling 25 cows. Some are second calf. Most would produce well for anyone. I have a few that most people wouldn't like but they may very well be the most profitable.
A friend is also selling 25. He is retired and finally decided he needs to slow down.
So as stated sometimes market cows may very well be very good ones.
 
I think regions play a big role. From hearing yall talk yalls auctions are a lot more buyer friendly, like putting the age of the cows on them. Also, people in other areas seem to breed closer to the same times and more simular cattle and vac protocols. That makes a lot of difference to be able to run down and pick up cattle that are a lot more simular to yours.

It's not like that here. It's a fre for all. Most are not synced up, there are huge variations in breeding, temperaments, etc. It's a real chit show at the AB.

I have a friend who buys hundreds of AB cows. He literally has a feed lot set up to process them. There will be 18 wheelers lined up dropping off cattle when he is stocking, but every couple of them takes a load back. They never leave the pens. He is very candid about it. He raises X amount of replacements every year for natural attrition. If he has a lot of extra grass or if he needs to stock a place he buys AB because he needs them now and there is no way to plan for that amount of volume in that short of time. He cuts the buyers loose and they get him cattle.
 
Nor can you prove that there's not. And I agree with you about the cows. You can buy a cow that has had a calf or two, get 3 or 4 more off of her, and sell her for the same money. People like those giving too much for replacement heifers can be found in all animal endeavors. People will pay more for a yearling colt or filly than they will for a finished horse. And I have seen people ay as much or more for a beagle or bird dog or coon hound pup than they could buy a seasoned filed trial contender for. I guess it is the possible potential they pay for. The idea that this just might be the next Secretariat.
The half of the equation is that if a person has those top end animals, they aren't going to get top end prices for them. The big money chases the prefix. I know several people who had good Angus herds, sold bulls to the AI studs, but wound up selling their cows without papers.
 
Like I said... I still remember when you first showed up here. Remember when you use to tag me all the time to answer people's questions. Now, you are telling me how it works. 🤣
When I first showed up, I had been reading as a guest for quite a while. And yes, I used to refer any Brama related questions to you and Caustic. I still will. Someone has a question about Brahmas in Texas, my experience with them have been in the humid south, with less drought and different grasses, and a different cattle market, etc, than in Texas. Most of the questions people asked me, I did know the answer to, but I wouldn't answer for two reasons. 1) No one likes a Cliff Clavin. I had seen people join for the first time, and the very first day they would comment like they knew everything to know about the subject. And, a lot of them did. But like I said, no one likes a Cliff Clavin, 2) I wanted to see what some of the people that were prolific posters actually knew. I would ask a lot of questions that I already knew the answer to. I learned who actually knew what they were talking about, as well as the ones that didn't. I saw how new members who were actually new to the business were treated. some people on here would be very kind, and patient, and helpful to them. Others were rude, and ridiculed them and tried to make them feel stupid. Didn't take long to figure out which ones were the actual knowledgeable cattlemen, Or cattle women. Guess which ones were actually the most knowledgeable?

I was thinking tonight, and I realized that I myself was guilty of not always taking my own advice about growing replacements vs buying a good cow. With our Corriente Kudzu herd, Very year when we pulled the bulls Memorial weekend, we'd turn our Corr bull in there fopr a monjth or so, in case the black bulls missed any of the cows. Some years we got no Corr calves, some years a couple or 3. One year we got 10. That was the year we only put 3 Brangus buills in with 125 cows. No big deal... we'd keep the Corr steers for roping, or to sell for roping, and use the heifers to replace the occasional cow that died or got too old to breed. Now, it truly costs us NOTHING to raise those heifers. The only input was a 25 cent ear tag. e calved in February, out the black bull s in at Easter and pulled the Memorial day. So this heifer born in 2021,weaned end of August of 21, would get bred May of 22, calve February of 23, and give us a black calve to sell August of 23. 2 years since she was weaned, Following my logic, should have sold her August of 21. Put maybe $100 with what she brought, and bought a bred Corr cow, One bred to a black bull that would calve in the time frame we wanted, or even January or December. Then we would have had a calf to sell august of 22, and another to sell aug of 23. So even though the heifer costs us nothing to raise for those 30 months til her first calf was weaned, we lost one $1000 calf, at today's prices, by retaining her instead of selling her and buying a bred cow. Had this been a "normal" beef cattle cow-ca;lf operation, on a normal pasture, with all the normal inputs: Worming, vaccinating, vet costs, fertilizer for the pasture, cost of growing hay to feed, etc, then our loss would have been even greater. That being said, I do understand people who raise registered cattle, maybe wanting to develop their own line.,.,their own strain....retaining heifers. Or even a commercial operator like KY, working a program to develop the kind of herd he wants. But even in a situation like his, I would be open ( and in no way I am saying KY is or isn't) to selling a heifer I wanted to retain, to buy a cow I had found that would fit right in with my program. And., I am sorry, it just would be less expensive than growing that heifer til she had her first calf.
 
And., I am sorry, it just would be less expensive than growing that heifer til she had her first calf.
There it is again. Retaining heifers is not about the cost of getting the first calf. That's a very short sigted ideology. Retaining heifers is about the value that animal creates in your herd throughout its entire life and potentially beyond.

Plus, it's not always true. You may not even be able to get a comparable animal to what you can raise.
 
I keep heifers because they are raised to know and work with me and my farm. They know the paths I want them to walk, from pen to pen and pasture to pasture. And they last longer on my farm than most animals I have bought. A closed herd is best for managing disease. That said, it is hard to expand quickly without buying breds. One drawback, of course, is having to replace bulls more often so they are not breeding their daughters.
 
There are people on here that think that because a cow is at a sale that it is junk....a cull. They think they raise replacements that are better than anyone else's that they could buy. I guess, according to them, IF something happened and they had to take their -best-in-the-world heifers to a sale, that those heifers would somehow immediately become diseased-ridden junk. I know of several operations that all they do is raise replacement heifers. If the ones they raise and sell weren't of superior quality, then they would not be in business for long. I have always said, and will still say, that if you gave me the money that it costs you to raise a heifer from birth to when her first calf is weaned ( about 2 and a half years) and add to that amount, the price the heifer would have brought if you had sold it at weaning, then I can buy a heavy bred cow that is better than any heifer you have raised, for less money, that will give you a calf to sell in a few months, instead of 2 and 1/2 years.
100% agree. There's also the heifers that won't take a calf don't breed back, don't milk, or have calving problems. The only way to lose more money is to buy heifers at today's prices. Give me a third stage 5 year old instead. But then again I like to make money and don't care about having the best cattle or that know who's my cows grandma's are.
 
Breeding back is a good way to test your cattle. If you get defects after one breed back... you have way bigger problems.
I'm wondering why someone would breed back just to 'test' their cattle, unless they are focusing on breeding stock rather than market animals. I'm going to throw a wrench into this discussion. Mor to see what the reaction is more than anything else. One must remember that recessive genes are not always bad, and can often be good. One must also remember the benefits of hybrid vigor when you cross totally unrelated animals to produce a superior animal resulting from a dis-proportionate number of heterozygous gene pairs. Here is something else to think about. There are 'recessive' genes that give a positive phenotypic response when present in a heterozygous pair that tend to be lethal in homozygote pairs. It's not cattle, but is a prime example. The gene for sickle-cell anemia is recessive. It is also lethal in a homozygous pair. However, in heterozygotes, the recessive gene is beneficial in that it keeps the posessor healthier. How you ask? The recessive gene protects the heterozygote individual from malaria. That is why there is a disproportinate presence of this gene in the population than would be expected for a recessive gene that is lethal in homozygous pairs. In other words, heterozygous individuals with this lethal gene are more desirable than any homozygote without it......they are healthier.
 
I'm wondering why someone would breed back just to 'test' their cattle, unless they are focusing on breeding stock rather than market animals. I'm going to throw a wrench into this discussion. Mor to see what the reaction is more than anything else. One must remember that recessive genes are not always bad, and can often be good. One must also remember the benefits of hybrid vigor when you cross totally unrelated animals to produce a superior animal resulting from a dis-proportionate number of heterozygous gene pairs. Here is something else to think about. There are 'recessive' genes that give a positive phenotypic response when present in a heterozygous pair that tend to be lethal in homozygote pairs. It's not cattle, but is a prime example. The gene for sickle-cell anemia is recessive. It is also lethal in a homozygous pair. However, in heterozygotes, the recessive gene is beneficial in that it keeps the posessor healthier. How you ask? The recessive gene protects the heterozygote individual from malaria. That is why there is a disproportinate presence of this gene in the population than would be expected for a recessive gene that is lethal in homozygous pairs. In other words, heterozygous individuals with this lethal gene are more desirable than any homozygote without it......they are healthier.
I don't think any one would do it just to test them. If you do, do it, and it goes good, it can be a testament to the quality of your cattle. It usually takes generations of doing it "right" to be able to breed back with positive results vs just getting lucky and producing one nice animal one time.
 
There is Judd ranch with an advertisement that includes linebreeding.
After many years of study and probably a lot of bad results. Inbreeding and line breeding is a gamble, sometimes with some pretty bad consequences. It can be done and done well... but most people that do it only think they have good results... because they don't really know what results they have. And even the most informed make mistakes.
 
We get fixated on a line, a bull, a cow to become blind. But when a great one does come along, if it ever comes along, with the prepotency to re-create itself, or you have the last cane of semen or whatever... maybe it is worth the risk. But 99% of the time, it is much better to outcross if you find another line without major problems and gain on vigor from hybrid vigor or merely lack of inbreeding depression. But if you/I are blinded by our opinions then the results will generally be a flop.
 

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