Breeding bull to daughters

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After many years of study and probably a lot of bad results. Inbreeding and line breeding is a gamble, sometimes with some pretty bad consequences. It can be done and done well... but most people that do it only think they have good results... because they don't really know what results they have. And even the most informed make mistakes.

He may get father x daughter cows that way too. LOL

@Pineywoods230
Let us know what you do and what you get. Good luck.
He may be purchasing inbred animals WITHOUT PROBLEMS, but when he breeds them to his unrelated animals, the offspring WILL NOT be inbred, so his is about as safe as he can be in terms of acquiring unrelated animals to his for breeding purposes.
 
He may be purchasing inbred animals WITHOUT PROBLEMS, but when he breeds them to his unrelated animals, the offspring WILL NOT be inbred, so his is about as safe as he can be in terms of acquiring unrelated animals to his for breeding purposes.
Sorry, but I don't see how that follows. The entire problem with inbreeding is using two animals with a specific genetic anomaly that when both parents carry the anomaly it is expressed. In inbreeding this can be different degrees of expression, and sometimes even 100% of offspring show the effects. (That does not mean the anomaly is visible.) If a carrier is bred to an unrelated animal they still pass the anomaly on as much as 100% of the time.
 
Sorry, but I don't see how that follows. The entire problem with inbreeding is using two animals with a specific genetic anomaly that when both parents carry the anomaly it is expressed. In inbreeding this can be different degrees of expression, and sometimes even 100% of offspring show the effects. (That does not mean the anomaly is visible.) If a carrier is bred to an unrelated animal they still pass the anomaly on as much as 100% of the time.
Bear in mind I said without problems. My take on @Ridgetop's comment (and he was saying it in jest) was that in an attempt to gat unrelated animals (from the sale barn) the animals that may be purchased/are acquired from the sale barn are themselves inbred. These inbred animals then become the parents of the offspring that are the animals that are targeted to not be inbred. My point was that if either parent of an intended offspring is inbred (or both of them) was that the resulting offspring, that is attempted to not be inbred, would indeed NOT be inbred, having received only 1 chromosome from each parent which results in none of the paired chromosomes in the offspring being from the same source, which is essentially what being inbred is. So, the offspring are therefore not inbred.

This kinda goes back to another discussion on another thread from not too long ago. That was, how far back/ how many generations do you go to not be considered inbred? The general consensus is 6 generations. If you don't have this generation limit, you could conceivably argue that every single species of life on earth is 100% inbred as every species can trace its linage back, if you go far enough, to a single individual. But let's stick to 6 generations.

So, can you have 2 'unrelated' animals that each have the same recessive gene anomaly and end up with progeny that have a problem because they end up homozygous for this trait carried in the recessive gene? Answer: yes.
 
It is a little different with horses. Inbreeding is sire to daughter, son to dam, or full siblings. LIne breeding is breeding grandsons and daughters to grand sons or daughters. When you see the same sire appear on the top and bottom of the papers, we call it line breeding. This can still concentrate recessive bad traits, Line bred Poco Bueno horses have a better chance of having HERDA. Line bred Imprsseive horses stand a better chance of being HYPP positive. For most commercial producers, you will be a lot better off to not breed your bull to his daughters.
Wow I haven't heard that name in years. Poco Bueno was basically the start of Appaloosa cutting horses in the 70's. Believe he was dead before that but his name was tied into almost every top performer. We had several geldings in that line and while we didn't cut they were sure top roping horses for us.
 
Wow I haven't heard that name in years. Poco Bueno was basically the start of Appaloosa cutting horses in the 70's. Believe he was dead before that but his name was tied into almost every top performer. We had several geldings in that line and while we didn't cut they were sure top roping horses for us.
Poco can be found in the pedigrees of most cutting bred horses,. due to his 2 grandsons, Dry Doc and Doc O'lena. What happened to Poco Lena is one of the greatest tragedies in QH history. I still cringe when I think of it.
 
Poco can be found in the pedigrees of most cutting bred horses,. due to his 2 grandsons, Dry Doc and Doc O'lena. What happened to Poco Lena is one of the greatest tragedies in QH history. I still cringe when I think of it.
Yeah, you're crossing lines when you had dock bar and Poco in the same bloodline. That little runt dock bar was one hell of a horse also
 
Sorry, but I don't see how that follows. The entire problem with inbreeding is using two animals with a specific genetic anomaly that when both parents carry the anomaly it is expressed. In inbreeding this can be different degrees of expression, and sometimes even 100% of offspring show the effects. (That does not mean the anomaly is visible.) If a carrier is bred to an unrelated animal they still pass the anomaly on as much as 100% of the time.
It is very simple genetics . The more inbred they are the more the recessive genes are expressed in the phenotype.
Way easier to find any defective genes and eliminate them from the genetic population,instead of continual outcrossing and having a genetic defect carried in a huge percentage of the population before it is identified.
Take two line breed animals that are unrelated to each other and the offspring would have a huge amount of hybrid vigor.
 
Yeah, you're crossing lines when you had dock bar and Poco in the same bloodline. That little runt dock bar was one hell of a horse also
He was bred to be a race horse, but he couldn't run, so they pulled him off the tracks. He was then shown halter, and won 9 grand championships. But his claim to fame, is as one of the top 5 cutting horse sires of all time. As far as I know, he himself never cut a cow. But his get sure could!
 
As mentioned, "IF" there are any recessive "problems", they sure can show up. But, it is called INBREEDING if there is a screw up - it's called LINEBREEDING when it works out great.
The bull in my Avatar is an embryo bull I raised, sold semen all over the nation. First time I ever used a live bull to cover my herd. We used him several years. We had 1/2 sisters in the herd. I think he bred 1 or 2 with no issues. But, he was DNA tested for genetic defects.
We breed half sister to half brother all the time once in 3 gen. ped. its not the breeding its what is behind it that can get u into problems. long time ago we bred half sister to half brother out of full sisters and got into trouble. so u need to know ur cows but we found out that by doing that we keep what we got i dont like 7 bulls in a 3 gen. ped. cause u dont get eveness out of that.
 
Humans aren't animals, mammals, don't have DNA?

Inbreeding is always rolling the dice. Every animal on the planet has known and spontaneous mutations that occur in their genetic materials.
Every living thing that reproduces sexually has DNA.
 
Nor can you prove that there's not. And I agree with you about the cows. You can buy a cow that has had a calf or two, get 3 or 4 more off of her, and sell her for the same money. People like those giving too much for replacement heifers can be found in all animal endeavors. People will pay more for a yearling colt or filly than they will for a finished horse. And I have seen people ay as much or more for a beagle or bird dog or coon hound pup than they could buy a seasoned filed trial contender for. I guess it is the possible potential they pay for. The idea that this just might be the next Secretariat.
its the genetics there buying.
 
Humans aren't animals, mammals, don't have DNA?

Inbreeding is always rolling the dice. Every animal on the planet has known and spontaneous mutations that occur in their genetic materials.
WOW .
Mammals don't have dna .

Inbreeding doesn't create non desirable mutations. It only allows recessive genes already present to be expressed .
Allows you to know what is already present doesn't create genetic mutations
 
I wonder why the incest taboo, which sets people teeth on edge just to think about, has been present in all civilizations in human history?

I just breed my females to better sires than they are, not inbred or line.
It's only taboo to humans for obvious reasons. Its nothing new in the animal world.

Some of the most sought after animals are line bred.

Now days I kind of think a lot of these pure bred breeders don't like it because they don't want you to uncover what's buried in those genetics they are pushing. Beefmaster use to advertise you could breed back like 2 or 3 times as a plus to the breed.
 
I know animals don't care about inbreeding. But the likelihood of cretinism (which is related to thyroid gland dysfunction) must have been known by humans since the beginning of time.

 
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It's only taboo to humans for obvious reasons. Its nothing new in the animal world.

Some of the most sought after animals are line bred.

Now days I kind of think a lot of these pure bred breeders don't like it because they don't want you to uncover what's buried in those genetics they are pushing. Beefmaster use to advertise you could breed back like 2 or 3 times as a plus to the breed.
In a natural world there is very little chance of inbreeding.

And the "obvious reasons" in any taboo for humans is the same for other animals regardless of how we see the practice with out livestock.
 
The reason you will not see a lot of success in cattle with line bred animals is because most breeders will not stick to the fundamental items they chose to breed for. They will sell out some thing at some point.

Ive seen line bred programs with dogs and they produce some awesome animals they are nearly impossible to get your hands on. To run a true line bred program you almost have to be ruthless in your culling like nature would be and more than most are willing to be. Some of that is for good cause because it doesn't always financially make sense but nature wasn't worried about that either.

I have also bred bulls to their daughters on many occasions with no ill-effect and will continue to as I have said in other posts. If your genetics are questionable then it may not be a good idea and you could have bad results but then again, you may want to look at why.

This is just like keeping replacement heifers or any thing else, though. You are only going to multiply what you already have, for the good or the bad. If you breed junk to junk you will get 2X the junk. If you breed nice to nice you will get 2X the nice.
 
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The reason you will not see a lot of success in cattle with line bred animals is because most breeders will not stick to the fundamental items they chose to breed for. They will sell out some thing at some point.

Ive seen line bred programs with dogs and they produce some awesome animals they are nearly impossible to get your hands on. To run a true line bred program you almost have to be ruthless in your culling like nature would be and more than most are willing to be. Some of that is for good cause because it doesn't always financially make sense but nature wasn't worried about that either.

I have also bred bulls to their daughters on many occasions with no ill-effect and will continue to as I have said in other posts. If your genetics are questionable then it may not be a good idea and you could have bad results but then again, you may want to look at why.

This is just like keeping replacement heifers or any thing else, though. You are only going to multiply what you already have, for the good or the bad. If you breed junk to junk you will get 2X the junk. If you breed nice to nice you will get 2X the nice.
I can't begin to tell you how little I agree with that. And the number of people that would agree damages the industry. But trying to counter these popularly accepted conclusions only leads to arguments and invested people digging in their heels to defend instead of learn and change their minds. It is the new way of the world...
 
I can't begin to tell you how little I agree with that. And the number of people that would agree damages the industry. But trying to counter these popularly accepted conclusions only leads to arguments and invested people digging in their heels to defend instead of learn and change their minds. It is the new way of the world...


Pot&kettle :cool:
 

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