The Posse Comitatus Act

[SJB]

Right up front, I haven't fact checked his assertions. I kind of find them hard to believe.

But if true, I don't think the IRS is going be responding to a terrorist attack anytime soon. Same for the Smithsonian and the US Mint.

I'm not a tinfoil type. But IF the report is accurate, don't you think that the IRS being armed is a little odd, and deserving of further scrutiny?

 

[Anonymous]

Thomas Jefferson, "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." Examples; Weapons.Citizens cant own weapons equivalent to Govt. Tyranny?... Counterfeit money. Govt can create money from nothing, digital or the old fashioned way, printing it. Highly illegal for citizens, Tyranny?...Govt can pollute and destroy property. EPA fines citizens for so much as digging a stump in "wetlands". Tyranny?.. Govt can steal from one group and give to another, welfare, food stamps etc. Tyranny?.. Govt can spy , record and steal all your private information. Illegal for citizens. Tyranny?... Govt can/does lie to the people with absolutely no ramifications. Very illegal for citizens.Tyranny? I don't Americans are quite as "free" as we think we are.

 

[Jogeephus]

Thomas Jefferson, "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." Examples; Weapons.Citizens cant own weapons equivalent to Govt. Tyranny?... Counterfeit money. Govt can create money from nothing, digital or the old fashioned way, printing it. Highly illegal for citizens, Tyranny?...Govt can pollute and destroy property. EPA fines citizens for so much as digging a stump in "wetlands". Tyranny?.. Govt can steal from one group and give to another, welfare, food stamps etc. Tyranny?.. Govt can spy , record and steal all your private information. Illegal for citizens. Tyranny?... Govt can/does lie to the people with absolutely no ramifications. Very illegal for citizens.Tyranny? I don't Americans are quite as "free" as we think we are.

Don't know if this is true or not but I've heard you can still smoke in a bar in Russia.

 

[inyati13]

Right up front, I haven't fact checked his assertions. I kind of find them hard to believe.

But if true, I don't think the IRS is going be responding to a terrorist attack anytime soon. Same for the Smithsonian and the US Mint.

I'm not a tinfoil type. But IF the report is accurate, don't you think that the IRS being armed is a little odd, and deserving of further scrutiny?

The IRS is among the highest profile enforcement agencies in the history of the US Government. Enforcement of the statutes that underpin the flow of revenue into the US treasury is a critical function. Sometimes taxes have to be collected at the point of a gun. They often impound property and that is protected under armed service. Between the IRS and the federal Marshall's service, those missions are conducted by armed federal civil servants.

Every agency of the federal government has a component that is armed. It is not surprising that large sums are spent for arms and Ammunition. Particularly ammunition. Federal agents are required to exercise their skills at the range - lucky bastands.

Edited to add:
I served 22 years in an enforcement capacity with the US EPA. I was not authorized to carry a firearm. I did perform several enforcement functions where I requested our armed agents accompany me. EPA's armed agents are mostly concealed carry. When they walk into a business with an agent performing an enforcement function no one will know that they are armed with a Glock 9 mm. Today, probably a .40 S&W.

The armed service of EPA is larger than you might know and they are required to maintain proficiency with their firearm. I have no idea of their budget for arms and ammunition.

 

[True Grit Farms]

The property appraiser in Dodge county carries a pistol on his side. A pistol will only get you killed in a gun fight. IMO

 

[inyati13]

SLB,

Looking more closely at the editorial, notice the purchase by the IRS COVERS THE PERIOD 2006-2014.

The IRS has purchased about $11 million worth of firearms, ammunition and tactical gear between 2006 and 2014. The IRS!

In addition, it covers tactical gear.
I don't have any knowledge of the accuracy of these numbers. Eleven million over a period of 8 years is not exorbitant for an agency the size of the IRS and considering their mission. Remember, some of the toughest enforcement issues they deal with is enforcing revenue collection against organized crime organizations. Many of these organizations are strong arm pseudo-businesses into gambling, drugs, and prostitution.

One other point, in the last 10 years federal agencies have been on alert at the insistence of Congress to be prepared for terrorist attacks.

 

[inyati13]

Thomas Jefferson, "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." Examples; Weapons.Citizens cant own weapons equivalent to Govt. Tyranny?... Counterfeit money. Govt can create money from nothing, digital or the old fashioned way, printing it. Highly illegal for citizens, Tyranny?...Govt can pollute and destroy property. EPA fines citizens for so much as digging a stump in "wetlands". Tyranny?.. Govt can steal from one group and give to another, welfare, food stamps etc. Tyranny?.. Govt can spy , record and steal all your private information. Illegal for citizens. Tyranny?... Govt can/does lie to the people with absolutely no ramifications. Very illegal for citizens.Tyranny? I don't Americans are quite as "free" as we think we are.

Weapons: you can own a tank with the proper permit.

Printing money: you can print any money you want as long as you are not printing money that you intent to mimic and circulate as US currency.

Spy: you can spy all you want unless you conduct your spying activity in violation of the US law.

Digging: Jefferson didn't say there was a problem if digging requires a permit.

Lieing: since when did the government say you cannot lie? Perjury is about the only case where Lieing will get you a slap on the wrist.

PS: users of CT whine about gun control at a time in our history when the per capita ownership of firearms is higher than ever. Furthermore, the threats to firearm ownership are just that - threats. Any significant gun control has no chance in heII of becoming law.

 

[Jogeephus]

Eleven million over a period of 8 years is not exorbitant for an agency the size of the IRS and considering their mission.

Shouldn't forget the federal government has been known to spend $6000 on a single hammer so there is no telling what they spent for each gun they bought. Have a friend who is an auditor and he was auditing some grant money and found the agency he was auditing had traded in their Uzis to get their price lowered on some MP5's. They saved $50 on each MP5 for each Uzi they traded in. What a waste. I would have given them $55 had they talked to me first.

 

[inyati13]

Eleven million over a period of 8 years is not exorbitant for an agency the size of the IRS and considering their mission.

Shouldn't forget the federal government has been known to spend $6000 on a single hammer so there is no telling what they spent for each gun they bought. Have a friend who is an auditor and he was auditing some grant money and found the agency he was auditing had traded in their Uzis to get their price lowered on some MP5's. They saved $50 on each MP5 for each Uzi they traded in. What a waste. I would have given them $55 had they talked to me first.

That crossed my mind. :nod:

 

[SJB]

Right up front, I haven't fact checked his assertions. I kind of find them hard to believe.

But if true, I don't think the IRS is going be responding to a terrorist attack anytime soon. Same for the Smithsonian and the US Mint.

I'm not a tinfoil type. But IF the report is accurate, don't you think that the IRS being armed is a little odd, and deserving of further scrutiny?

The IRS is among the highest profile enforcement agencies in the history of the US Government. Enforcement of the statutes that underpin the flow of revenue into the US treasury is a critical function. Sometimes taxes have to be collected at the point of a gun. They often impound property and that is protected under armed service. Between the IRS and the federal Marshall's service, those missions are conducted by armed federal civil servants.

Every agency of the federal government has a component that is armed. It is not surprising that large sums are spent for arms and Ammunition. Particularly ammunition. Federal agents are required to exercise their skills at the range - lucky bastands.

i think that is sort of the point. i'm not disputing they are armed, just questioning whether or not they should be. just because something has always been doesn't mean it should always be.

i have a hard time accepting the fact that an IRS agent can come to my door armed to the teeth to arrest me for tax evasion, without me being detained by LE, it being adjudicated first. which, at least the way i read it, is the question at the heart of the editorial, and how the author gets back to posse comitatus.

US Marshals, FBI, ATF? sure. EPA and IRS? not so much.

no wonder we're 20 trillion in debt.

 

[inyati13]

Right up front, I haven't fact checked his assertions. I kind of find them hard to believe.

But if true, I don't think the IRS is going be responding to a terrorist attack anytime soon. Same for the Smithsonian and the US Mint.

I'm not a tinfoil type. But IF the report is accurate, don't you think that the IRS being armed is a little odd, and deserving of further scrutiny?

The IRS is among the highest profile enforcement agencies in the history of the US Government. Enforcement of the statutes that underpin the flow of revenue into the US treasury is a critical function. Sometimes taxes have to be collected at the point of a gun. They often impound property and that is protected under armed service. Between the IRS and the federal Marshall's service, those missions are conducted by armed federal civil servants.

Every agency of the federal government has a component that is armed. It is not surprising that large sums are spent for arms and Ammunition. Particularly ammunition. Federal agents are required to exercise their skills at the range - lucky bastands.

i think that is sort of the point. i'm not disputing they are armed, just questioning whether or not they should be. just because something has always been doesn't mean it should always be.

i have a hard time accepting the fact that an IRS agent can come to my door armed to the teeth to arrest me for tax evasion, without me being detained by LE, it being adjudicated first. which, at least the way i read it, is the question at the heart of the editorial, and how the author gets back to posse comitatus.

US Marshals, FBI, ATF? sure. EPA and IRS? not so much.

no wonder we're 20 trillion in debt.

Fiscal responsibility is a whole new thread. Agents who face threats and intimidation from persons who intend to impede federal enforcement must be protected for government to function. Thus, why many agencies have divisions that provide protective services. At one time, the Marshall Service provided that service but agencies often did not get timely service.

 

[Anonymous]

Thomas Jefferson, "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." Examples; Weapons.Citizens cant own weapons equivalent to Govt. Tyranny?... Counterfeit money. Govt can create money from nothing, digital or the old fashioned way, printing it. Highly illegal for citizens, Tyranny?...Govt can pollute and destroy property. EPA fines citizens for so much as digging a stump in "wetlands". Tyranny?.. Govt can steal from one group and give to another, welfare, food stamps etc. Tyranny?.. Govt can spy , record and steal all your private information. Illegal for citizens. Tyranny?... Govt can/does lie to the people with absolutely no ramifications. Very illegal for citizens.Tyranny? I don't Americans are quite as "free" as we think we are.

Weapons: you can own a tank with the proper permit..... "RIGHT to bear arms" If you need a permit from Govt, its not a "right".

Printing money: you can print any money you want as long as you are not printing money that you intent to mimic and circulate as US currency....Govt can print which devalues the dollars in your pocket, that's why counterfeit is illegal for you and me but not Govt.

Spy: you can spy all you want unless you conduct your spying activity in violation of the US law....Read about Edward Snowden. N.S.A was/is in violation of U.S. law.

Digging: Jefferson didn't say there was a problem if digging requires a permit..... Again, if you own the property and the stump, why do you need to ask "permission"?

Lieing: since when did the government say you cannot lie? Perjury is about the only case where Lieing will get you a slap on the wrist. You cant lie to Govt. Ask Martha Stewart. It's Federal crime, unless you have the proper last name.

PS: users of CT whine about gun control at a time in our history when the per capita ownership of firearms is higher than ever. Furthermore, the threats to firearm ownership are just that - threats. Any significant gun control has no chance in heII of becoming law.

....Cross a state line that doesn't recognize your states concealed gun permit. See if your right to bear arms exists.

 

[SJB]

Fiscal responsibility is a whole new thread. Agents who face threats and intimidation from persons who intend to impede federal enforcement must be protected for government to function. Thus, why many agencies have divisions that provide protective services. At one time, the Marshall Service provided that service but agencies often did not get timely service.

to bring it back to your question about loose speculation, do you personally believe the IRS maliciously or unfairly targeted conservative groups?

 

[inyati13]

Thomas Jefferson, "Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry." Examples; Weapons.Citizens cant own weapons equivalent to Govt. Tyranny?... Counterfeit money. Govt can create money from nothing, digital or the old fashioned way, printing it. Highly illegal for citizens, Tyranny?...Govt can pollute and destroy property. EPA fines citizens for so much as digging a stump in "wetlands". Tyranny?.. Govt can steal from one group and give to another, welfare, food stamps etc. Tyranny?.. Govt can spy , record and steal all your private information. Illegal for citizens. Tyranny?... Govt can/does lie to the people with absolutely no ramifications. Very illegal for citizens.Tyranny? I don't Americans are quite as "free" as we think we are.

Weapons: you can own a tank with the proper permit..... "RIGHT to bear arms" If you need a permit from Govt, its not a "right".

Printing money: you can print any money you want as long as you are not printing money that you intent to mimic and circulate as US currency....Govt can print which devalues the dollars in your pocket, that's why counterfeit is illegal for you and me but not Govt.

Spy: you can spy all you want unless you conduct your spying activity in violation of the US law....Read about Edward Snowden. N.S.A was/is in violation of U.S. law.

Digging: Jefferson didn't say there was a problem if digging requires a permit..... Again, if you own the property and the stump, why do you need to ask "permission"?

Lieing: since when did the government say you cannot lie? Perjury is about the only case where Lieing will get you a slap on the wrist. You cant lie to Govt. Ask Martha Stewart. It's Federal crime, unless you have the proper last name.

PS: users of CT whine about gun control at a time in our history when the per capita ownership of firearms is higher than ever. Furthermore, the threats to firearm ownership are just that - threats. Any significant gun control has no chance in heII of becoming law.

....Cross a state line that doesn't recognize your states concealed gun permit. See if your right to bear arms exists.

True. But 44 states have reciprocity. New York is perhaps the most gun unfriendly.

Your right to bear arms remains. Maybe not concealed.

 

[inyati13]

Fiscal responsibility is a whole new thread. Agents who face threats and intimidation from persons who intend to impede federal enforcement must be protected for government to function. Thus, why many agencies have divisions that provide protective services. At one time, the Marshall Service provided that service but agencies often did not get timely service.

to bring it back to your question about loose speculation, do you personally believe the IRS maliciously or unfairly targeted conservative groups?

I believe a wink and a nod often goes for permission from the party in power to target the party out of power but it all balances out.

 

[Anonymous]

inyati13, I think you missed some of my reply.
Weapons: you can own a tank with the proper permit.....My Response: "RIGHT to bear arms" If you need a permit from Govt, it's not a "right".

Printing money: you can print any money you want as long as you are not printing money that you intent to mimic and circulate as US currency....My Response:Govt can print which devalues the dollars in your pocket, that's why counterfeit is illegal for you and me

Spy: you can spy all you want unless you conduct your spying activity in violation of the US law....My Response: Read about Edward Snowden. N.S.A was/is in violation of U.S. law.

Digging: Jefferson didn't say there was a problem if digging requires a permit.....My Response: Again, if you own the property and the stump, why do you need to ask "permission"?

Lieing: since when did the government say you cannot lie? Perjury is about the only case where Lieing will get you a slap on the wrist...My Response: You cant lie to Govt(FBI). Ask Martha Stewart. It's Federal crime, unless you have the proper last name.

 

[inyati13]

"zirlottkim": inyati13, I think you missed some of my reply.
Weapons: you can own a tank with the proper permit.....My Response: "RIGHT to bear arms" If you need a permit from Govt, it's not a "right".

Response 1.
I disagree. The Second Amendment is not usurped by the State requiring a CW permit. The Conservative platform holds sacred the power of a State, oddly, when the State exercises those powers in a way conservatives dislike, they conveniently ignore their platform.

Printing money: you can print any money you want as long as you are not printing money that you intent to mimic and circulate as US currency....My Response:Govt can print which devalues the dollars in your pocket, that's why counterfeit is illegal for you and me.

Response 2.
True. The supply of money has a direct relationship to the face value. Counterfeiting is illegal because it is "stealing" a national currency without the obligation of having to back the currency.

Spy: you can spy all you want unless you conduct your spying activity in violation of the US law....My Response: Read about Edward Snowden. N.S.A was/is in violation of U.S. law.

Response 3.
Thanks for the suggestion.

Digging: Jefferson didn't say there was a problem if digging requires a permit.....My Response: Again, if you own the property and the stump, why do you need to ask "permission"?

Response 4.
Society in a democracy holds the government responsible for protecting the majority from the adverse actions of the few.

Lieing: since when did the government say you cannot lie? Perjury is about the only case where Lieing will get you a slap on the wrist...My Response: You cant lie to Govt(FBI). Ask Martha Stewart. It's Federal crime, unless you have the proper last name.

Response 5.
I don't know her that well.

 

[Anonymous]

Response 1.
I disagree. The Second Amendment is not usurped by the State requiring a CW permit. The Conservative platform holds sacred the power of a State, oddly, when the State exercises those powers in a way conservatives dislike, they conveniently ignore their platform.

You are right, but I fall in line more with Libertarian views than Conservatives of today. I like this quote
"A man's natural rights are his own, against the whole world; and any infringement of them is equally a crime, whether committed by one man, or by millions; whether committed by one man, calling himself a robber, (or by any other name indicating his true character,) or by millions, calling themselves a government."

 

[inyati13]

Response 1.
I disagree. The Second Amendment is not usurped by the State requiring a CW permit. The Conservative platform holds sacred the power of a State, oddly, when the State exercises those powers in a way conservatives dislike, they conveniently ignore their platform.

You are right, but I fall in line more with Libertarian views than Conservatives of today. I like this quote
"A man's natural rights are his own, against the whole world; and any infringement of them is equally a crime, whether committed by one man, or by millions; whether committed by one man, calling himself a robber, (or by any other name indicating his true character,) or by millions, calling themselves a government."

Excellent. I feel that myself.

Conservatives/Liberals. Republicans/Democrats.
Both equally have led the US out into the bush. Poor leadership and greed.

 

[red angus 2010]

Response 1.
I disagree. The Second Amendment is not usurped by the State requiring a CW permit. The Conservative platform holds sacred the power of a State, oddly, when the State exercises those powers in a way conservatives dislike, they conveniently ignore their platform.

Bill of Right's
2nd Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Merriam - Webster
bear arms
to carry or possess arms

infringed
to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another

If the state requires a permit in order for me to posses a firearm in public they are infringing upon my second amendment right. The second amendment does not define where my right to keep and bear arms starts and stops, ie it doesn't say on my property, in public spaces, etc. We have reached this point because the courts have defined the rights/ safety of others to supercede this right. When we begin to assure the rights of a collective over individual rights those principles outlined in our founding documents are in jeporady.