Slow fleshing = Simmental.

[Brandonm2]

-2 - You asked what this had to do with Fleckvieh Simmentals. Somewhere in my compendium of Breed Information I remember reading about Fleckvieh (per se) being of the 'Old World German' breeding lines, and as such, were slow maturing cattle. Inasmuch as S.R.R. indicated that he was not overjoyed with the news that the 800 cow rancher was disappointed with the "slow fleshing ability of Simmentals", it seems logical to me that if he were using Fleckvieh bloodlines - that is exactly what he could expect to experience. If it were I seeking information, I wouldn't have to be knocked down with a milk can to see the implications involved!

Believe me, I am of the old school of a Beef animal looking and breeding like a BEEF animal! Reference my reiterations on "Funnel Butt" Angus! And I am an avowed Angus enthusiast to say the very least! But I see and hear subliminal murmurings and mumblings throughout many of the breeds that portend to me the danger of 'lurching' into breed obscurity and loosing that 'framy, heavy muscled' phenotype.

But my main thrust regarding the rancher with the 800 cows was - if he were using 'Fleckvieh' breeding and lamenting the fact that they were 'slow fleshing' - -well - DUH! Yes, if I were S.R.R. and didn't want slow fleshing cattle, I would stay away from those cattle which were slow fleshing! That is why I stated that "some of the 'Old School' dogma is ponderable.

You stated that you don't see anybody resisting change in this discussion. Perhaps S.R.R. should investigate Simmentals in a herd that has traits of which he is more comfortable. And I imagine they can be found in Canada also. If not, I'll wager that they can be found in the United States. Seman can, for sure! And you are correct; S.R.R. hasn't revealed his cow genetics to us, and that is a large consideration in Bull selection, as you have alluded to in the past, B-2.

I guess that I am a little apprehensive regarding the subtle ( and not so subtle!) changes that I see happening to some of our great cattle because I am old enough to remember the absolutely devasting effects that the Sunbeam breeding had on Angus cattle, and I certainly don't want to live through that abomination and atrocity again. It took over 50 years to correct that absurd collection of errors which ALMOST destroyed the Angus breed along with a lot of fine farmers and ranchers and their families. I was there. Got the "T" shirt. Don't want to live through it again. That is why I am so adamant regarding EDUCATION and LEARNING and THINKING!

DOC HARRIS

I don't disagree with much of that when directed at breeders in general; but I still think you were a little harsh when that was directed at S.R.R. He was interested in some Simmentals. Rather than just go out and buy some Simmentals and throw the genetic dice he did research and talked to a local rancher who was more experienced with them and was told that they are slow finishing (compared to the typical Angus they certainly are). That might have been enough for some people, but S.R.R. tooks his concerns to us on the internet for our input. I really don't see him frozen by pessimism. I think you also hit on a good point. The major breeds are becoming so diverse that talking in generalities about Simmies, Angus, Herfs, Chars, Lims, etc is becoming an almost meaningless dicussion. Your friend, "Prince Sunbeam" http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4055414254 (you got to love the gaudy $41 EN number though)
versus something like 5175
http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4042544743
is quite a difference in performance.
Though both are "Anguses" their performance is wildly varying and they are probably not the most extreme ends of their types. If "5175" is your mental idea of an Angus you are going to have very different views than if "Prince Sunbeam 29" is your mental Angus standard, and both probably still have descendents being born out there somewhere. Now you can find early maturing Charolais and frame score 8 Angus's and calving ease Simms; thus answering a question like "are Simms slow fleshing" becomes almost an impossible exercise.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Your friend, "Prince Sunbeam" http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4055414254

MY Friend! :shock: :roll: :lol: :lol: My "friends" in those days were Eileenmere 500, Eileenmere 487, Homeplace Eileenmere 999 35th, The Bardoliermeres - - Bulls of THAT ilk, and even they were lacking in the traits that are standard with just about every bull of today. Prince Sunbeam 29, Prince Sunbeam 40, Master Prince of Sunbeam (he was awarded the Angus Registration # 1000000) - they were so short legged and when in show shape they could hardly walk. Made your hair stand on end! :shock: I helped pull a calf at the American Royal Show in 1947 and we didn't think we were going to make it. And the cow didn't think so either! :x :help: :help: Too small a pelvis, and toooooo fat!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Brandomn - well said!
I've said this many times:
"There is more difference WITHIN a breed, than there is BETWEEN breeds."
and this becomes more true daily.

EVERYONE realizes/agrees that the black gene in all the different breeds (black Charolais :shock: ) mainly comes from the Angus breed - that's a given. But when you are talking 15/16 or 31/32 or 127/128 (as many Simmentals and Limousins and many others are) isn't it time to let go of the "idea" that the breed is mongrelized or that they are really Angus?? Yes, there are many 1/2 bloods being produced, and most of them of from Angus cows - meaning Angus breeders are wanting "something" that the Simmental has to offer.
It is VERY important for us to maintain many different breeds, because not one fits all needs.
And, yes, the Angus & Hereford breed had some "other" bloodlines mixed in back in the 80's, but were not acknowledged. So, I bet there are some bloodlines that are really 127/128% Angus. Angus (for one) has gone from the belt-buckle size to frames 8-9, now getting back to the 5-6. Just because breeds have changed to meet the needs of the industry does not mean they are mongrelized.
There are still top Angus herds spitting out Red Angus offspring. This is a recessive gene that keeps popping up after all this time. The black hide is a DOMINANT gene, so it was real easy to inherit that gene & keep it. One gene does not mean the breed isn't true.

 

[southpaw]

"There is more difference WITHIN a breed, than there is BETWEEN breeds."

Quotes like that get more and more cattleman in trouble everyday.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"There is more difference WITHIN a breed, than there is BETWEEN breeds."

Quotes like that get more and more cattleman in trouble everyday.

Hmm - guess I would have to ask you to explain that! There are presently frame 8 and frame 3 Angus in the USA. That's a large difference within a purebred breed (I've personnaly seen them!). But if you look at averages between breeds, there is not that great a difference. Funny, universities have been quoting that for MANY years.

 

[Brandonm2]

"There is more difference WITHIN a breed, than there is BETWEEN breeds."

Quotes like that get more and more cattleman in trouble everyday.

It is still true. If you were feeding out a group of calves, you would not feed out a frame score 8 moosy Angus in the same pen and ration with a frame score 5 moderate framed Angus calf and a frame score 1 Lowline ANgus. The Lowliner will be ready to process grading high Choice while the big growthy calf is still growing bone and muscle mass and the moderate framed calf will be lucky to grade Select. Likewise if you waited for that big calf to finish Choice the Lowline calf will be a Yield Grade 5 butterball who can barely standup and the moderate Angus won't be much better. It makes a lot more sense to forget about sorting the cattle according to breed and put like cattle with like cattle. The Lowline Angus can go in a pen with "Classic" Herefords and dumpy little Red Anguses while the Moosy Angus would be best penned with Moosy Charolais and Simmentals. While the frame score 5 Angus, would be better served in a pen with like sized Herefs, Red Anguses, Chars, and Simmies.

There are big framed beefy Anguses and Herefords floating around out there who would be best used as Terminal Sires on x-bred cows; while there are moderate framed Lim, Sim, and Char maternal lines that wouldn't add growth to even an avg herd of British cows. Those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s that grew up believing certain breeds were Maternal breeds and certain breeds were Sire breeds need to just forget all of that; because there are both big framed growthy cattle AND moderate framed, feminine, easy keeping, cows in MOST breeds now. A modern commercial guy can't just buy bulls based on breed anymore and assume they will do what he wants them to do. He has to understand EPDs, ultrasound data, and sometimes even cow families of the breeds he uses in his herd to adequately evaluate sires now.

 

[dun]

Those of us who grew up in the 70s and 80s that grew up believing certain breeds were Maternal breeds and certain breeds were Sire breeds need to just forget all of that; because there are both big framed growthy cattle AND moderate framed, feminine, easy keeping, cows in MOST breeds now. A modern commercial guy can't just buy bulls based on breed anymore and assume they will do what he wants them to do. He has to understand EPDs, ultrasound data, and sometimes even cow families of the breeds he uses in his herd to adequately evaluate sires now.

You learn quickly Grasshopper

dun

 

[southpaw]

I tend not to take what the universities say as gospel. They are funded not just with tax dollars but with corporate money and will say what the corporate sponsor wants them too.

For the last 30 years the tail has been wagging the dog in the beef industry. Since the import of continental breeds the beef industry has gone from predictable breeding with British Cattle to the mongrelized heinz 57 variety mess we currently have with every breed bred to be black to imitate angus.

"There is more difference WITHIN a breed, than there is BETWEEN breeds."

If that is true then why is every breed getting a black hide? Why do continental breed associations say their sires are the perfect match to cross with angus cows?

 

[Beef11]

I agree with everything except the quote about being more difference in a breed than between breeds. That needs alot more explaining to me to even begin to make sense.
Gene frequency?
homozygosity?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I agree with everything except the quote about being more difference in a breed than between breeds. That needs alot more explaining to me to even begin to make sense.
Gene frequency?
homozygosity?

Beef11 - I have stated this many times: SEMANTICS (Understanding WORD meanings) confuses understanding sometimes.

I shall attempt to clarify "in a breed" differentiated from "between breeds".

"IN A BREED". There are undesirable individuals in EVERY BREED. (This is a fact!) There are DESIRABLE individuals in EVERY BREED. (This is really a fact!)

There CAN BE a greater DIFFERENCE between individuals WITHIN A SPECIFIC BREED than between DESIRABLE individuals among SEVERAL BREEDS.

Let's try this: Angus Bull "A" is a very desirable bull. Angus Bull "B" is a LOUSY CULL and should have been cut a long time ago. BIG difference between Bull "A" and Bull "B".

Hereford Bull "H" is a very desirable bull. Hereford Bull "S" is a LOUSY CULL and should have been cut a long time ago. BIG difference between Bull "H" and Bull "S".

Angus Bull "A" and Hereford Bull "H" are closer to being acceptable and desirable TOGETHER and have fewer differences between them than desirable Angus Bull "A" and UNdesirable Hereford Lousy Cull Bull "S".

By the same token - there are greater differences between desirable Hereford Bull "H" and UNdesirable Lousy Cull Angus Bull "B".

"THERE ARE GREATER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS WITHIN A BREED THAN BETWEEN DESIRABLE INDIVIDUALS AMONG SEVERAL BREEDS."

Cut this out and stick it on your refrigerator door. I got it from MY refrigerator door!

DOC HARRIS

 

[S.R.R.]

"THERE ARE GREATER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS WITHIN A BREED THAN BETWEEN DESIRABLE INDIVIDUALS AMONG SEVERAL BREEDS."

Cut this out and stick it on your refrigerator door. I got it from MY refrigerator door!

DOC HARRIS

The study from my post "Good read" talks a bit about just that. Here is the link.

http://www.jpcs.on.ca/biodiversity/ghg/ ... 11-19.html


.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Well, Dun, Doc, & Brandonm2 get it.

 

[Three T]

Jeanne,

And, yes, the Angus & Hereford breed had some "other" bloodlines mixed in back in the 80's, but were not ac
knowledged.

Could you elaborate on this, has there been dna test on some of the popular bloodlines that show outside influence? What sires today are carrying these genetics?

 

[freddiej51]

PEOPLE!!!!! WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.
THE MAN HAS BEEN MISINFORMED ABOUT THE TYPES OF SIMMI CATTLE THERE ARE.
JUDGING BY THE WAY HE HAS DISCRIBED HIS COWS THEY ARE OF THE SWISS STRAIN NOT THE FLECKVIEH OF GERMANY.
THE SWISS IS A SLOW FLESHING TYPE OF CATTLE AND MILK LIKE CHAMPS AND ARE NOTED FOR THEY'RE HIGH BUTTER FAT QUALITYS.
THE FLECKVIEH IS A DUAL PURPOSE BREED MILK AS WELL AS FLESHING.
SIR YOU JUST HAVE BEEN MISLEAD ABOUT THE TYPE OF BASE BULL YOU NEED.
THIS COMES FROM OVER 30 YEARS OF RESEARCH IN THE SIMENTAL BREED SWIS,FRENCH.AND THE BETTER OF THE 3,THE FLECKVIEH.
AS FAR AS THE SIM/ANGUS CROSS YES THEY ARE A COMPOSITE AND ARE GOOD IF YOU WANT THIS,BUT A FULL FLECKVIEH WILL DO A BETTER JOB OF UP GRADING YOUR COMERCIAL HERD.
HERFORD AND ANGUS ARE GOOD BASE FOR A COMERCIAL HERD
BUT THE FOUNDATION TO BUILD ON IF YOU WANT THE POUNDS WOULD BE A FULL FLECKVIEH SIMENTAL WITH CALVING EASE.
I'VE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH THEM FOR 10 YEARS JUST GOOD ABOVE AVERAGE WEAN WEIGHS.

 

[S.R.R.]

PEOPLE!!!!! WHAT'S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.
THE MAN HAS BEEN MISINFORMED ABOUT THE TYPES OF SIMMI CATTLE THERE ARE.
JUDGING BY THE WAY HE HAS DISCRIBED HIS COWS THEY ARE OF THE SWISS STRAIN NOT THE FLECKVIEH OF GERMANY.
THE SWISS IS A SLOW FLESHING TYPE OF CATTLE AND MILK LIKE CHAMPS AND ARE NOTED FOR THEY'RE HIGH BUTTER FAT QUALITYS.
THE FLECKVIEH IS A DUAL PURPOSE BREED MILK AS WELL AS FLESHING.
SIR YOU JUST HAVE BEEN MISLEAD ABOUT THE TYPE OF BASE BULL YOU NEED.
THIS COMES FROM OVER 30 YEARS OF RESEARCH IN THE SIMENTAL BREED SWIS,FRENCH.AND THE BETTER OF THE 3,THE FLECKVIEH.
AS FAR AS THE SIM/ANGUS CROSS YES THEY ARE A COMPOSITE AND ARE GOOD IF YOU WANT THIS,BUT A FULL FLECKVIEH WILL DO A BETTER JOB OF UP GRADING YOUR COMERCIAL HERD.
HERFORD AND ANGUS ARE GOOD BASE FOR A COMERCIAL HERD
BUT THE FOUNDATION TO BUILD ON IF YOU WANT THE POUNDS WOULD BE A FULL FLECKVIEH SIMENTAL WITH CALVING EASE.
I'VE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH THEM FOR 10 YEARS JUST GOOD ABOVE AVERAGE WEAN WEIGHS.

I will have to call that rancher back and let him know that the cattle his father and now he are raising are not the blood line they paid for and they should get a refund! "NOT" He did say when finished they looked real good. It just takes them longer to fleash out and they cost a bit more to keep.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Jeanne,

And, yes, the Angus & Hereford breed had some "other" bloodlines mixed in back in the 80's, but were not ac
knowledged.

Could you elaborate on this, has there been dna test on some of the popular bloodlines that show outside influence? What sires today are carrying these genetics?

The short Angus miraculously grew legs back then, called a little influence from the Chianina breed. And the Herefords, suddenly decided it was important to breed for goggle eyes (little Simmental influence). Now, this is speculative information, although I am aware of a bull that was DNA tested & his papers were pulled - happened right at state fair time & there was a big discussion as to whether offspring could be shown (VERY popular Angus). I don't know pedigrees, just know that enough breeders discussed the rapid "change" and influence from "across the fence".

FredieJ51 - please hold down the volume! When you type in all uppercase letters - you are screaming at us. Maybe you wanted to, but it is not polite - now that you know.
And yes, the fleckvieh cattle are moderate in size & are easy fleshing. But as I said, a frame 5-6 Angus, Simm, Hfd, etc are still a frame 5-6 and should perform similarly. Yes, some breeds marble, and set in outside fat differently. For example (now this is a brooaard statement!) Shorthorns & Herefords are know to easily set in outside fat, but have a harder time marbling; whereas the Angus and Simmentals can marble easier without as much external fat.
You have to be careful with some of the Fleckvieh lines - way tooo heavy front ends for calving ease. Sometimes I see Fleckvieh ads and I think "these people must think the CE & BW info is reverse - they think -CE is best & +BW is best". I totally admit that there are some great Fleckvieh lines, and they have helped make our "modern" american Simmental. But, I do caution against getting heavy fronted bulls - of any breed.

 

[freddiej51]

sorry for sounding so bold or so loud i have a great passion for these cattle.
research is the key to all good cattle and what you put onto them is what you will get back.
i just know from past breeding of the flecks i can get a good cross with any english breed you put them on,herford,angus
which a lot of commercial breeders like.
again sorry for being so bold the simmental has taken a bad rap
due to some over extreme breeders in the past for a quick get rich deal.

 

[S.R.R.]

No worries and a merry Christmas to ya!

 

[southpaw]

I can see how their are extremes in every breed. But why then is their the big push toward black composites if one breed isn't superior to another? Why have the simmis and other breeds totally lost their traditional identity and appearance? Black Herefords? Black Simmis? Black Charalois? Its insane. Dy default your telling everyone that Angus is superior by selecting to get that premium for a black hide.

Ya there more difference within a breed than between them! If that was true then there wouldn't be black herefords, charalois, and simmis.

 

[Brandonm2]

I can see how their are extremes in every breed. But why then is their the big push toward black composites if one breed isn't superior to another? Why have the simmis and other breeds totally lost their traditional identity and appearance? Black Herefords? Black Simmis? Black Charalois? Its insane. Dy default your telling everyone that Angus is superior by selecting to get that premium for a black hide.

Ya there more difference within a breed than between them! If that was true then there wouldn't be black herefords, charalois, and simmis.

No one ever claimed that one breed did not have a superior marketing program than any other. By adding a few Black genes to Limousin, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Maine-Anjou, Chianina, etc they are as much certified Angus Beef as Scotchcap himself. All they are doing is borrowing traits from the Angus like calving ease, lowered birth weights, easier keeping, and of course the black hide while maintaining their own "pure status". Some Angus breeders did much the same thing when they needed a lot of frame really fast and took it from the Chianina and Holstein.