I was considering the use of a Simmental bull for a terminal sire sometime in the near future. I found it hard to believe that a Simmental would be anything if not great as a terminal sire until I talked this rancher in Manitoba about his. He has a herd of 800 cows and said that he is and has been disappointed with the slow fleshing ability of Simmentals. He told me that they have great bone and height also are great mothers with alot of milk but take longer then his Char,and angus to flesh out. As you can imagine this was not good news. Have any of you run across this problem?
Slow fleshing = Simmental.
- Thread starter S.R.R.
- Start date
frenchie
Well-known member
S.R.R.":1mdh2exo said:
S.R.R Was he using Fleckvieh bloodlines
S.R.R.":3c6g53ug said:
I have never finished calves; but we had some straight Simmie cows here from 1989-2003 and they were very hard keeping cows. Good milking cows; but I could not winter them on hay alone. The worst of em had to be seperated from the herd during late winter because my small and moderate framed Herfs and Anguses were getting waaay fat while I was throwing out feed to keep the Simmies from getting waaay too poor. Of course the Black frame score 5 Simmies of today are practically a different breed from the colorfully marked frame score 8 mooses that were popular in the late 80s. I have no experience with the smaller wider sprung modern Simmies. I suspect those flaws are a thing of the past; but they probably still are not as easy fleshing as British breeds.
The traditional old style "flowered" simmies were harder to finish out. Mainly, because most people didn't know how to finish a large frame steer. You could not background them at all, they need to be weaned and put on a heavy finishing ration.
The modern Simmental are equal to other breeds. Frame 5 is a frame 5 - according to a big breeder on the TV show, he said the difference is they will get bigger sooner - not bigger, but bigger sooner than the british, and finish out - sooner.
A frame 5 Simm cow may require a little more feed that a 5 british, based solely on her milking ability. But if you had a british capable of milking & raising as big a calf, she also would require same feed, but the WW #'s more than compensate.
I was totally amazed this week to get out normal extension newsletter. The Beef Specialist actually told everyone that here in the NE, we NEEDED cows that milked heavier, due to our great grass. Wow, that was a BIG change in what they always preach!!!
The modern Simmental are equal to other breeds. Frame 5 is a frame 5 - according to a big breeder on the TV show, he said the difference is they will get bigger sooner - not bigger, but bigger sooner than the british, and finish out - sooner.
A frame 5 Simm cow may require a little more feed that a 5 british, based solely on her milking ability. But if you had a british capable of milking & raising as big a calf, she also would require same feed, but the WW #'s more than compensate.
I was totally amazed this week to get out normal extension newsletter. The Beef Specialist actually told everyone that here in the NE, we NEEDED cows that milked heavier, due to our great grass. Wow, that was a BIG change in what they always preach!!!
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3apye96l said:
I alwasy keep in mind that the extension people have to print/recommend stuff just so they can stay employed. A cow still has to be balanced to her environment and not everyone in any given area has great grass. A few years ago a wizard that had worked in WI joined the local extension office and was going to show these hillbillys the right way to dairy.
Took him about 1 year to realize he was wrong and 2 more to admit it. He left and went back to WI. But in the meantime there were a lot of dairys that got into serious trouble following his teachings/preachings.
dun
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DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
This pessimistic attitude -reminds me of the days of the transition of the "Sunbeam" pony Angus of the '40's and '50's into the MORE desirable and acceptable performance breed of which Angus Cattle define today. There were those who dug their heels in the ground and refused to accept the fact that change was mandatory for the breed to remain the mainstay of Beef Cattle Breeding and the almost obligatory ingredient for an optimal cross-breeding program. But common sense and reality triumphed, as it did with other breeds as well, however we still have a few die-hard purists who adhere to the doctrine of "Total Purity" of the Genetics of 'Old School' thinking - - of which some of that dogma is ponderable - which it should be.S.R.R.":217v0esu said:
The only factor in life which is Constant - - is CHANGE. The important aspect of this scenario is that the changes be for the right reasons, and therein lies the problem! Who will determine what the right reasons are, - -and - - who will "Bell the Cat?"
Let's hope that the Beef Breed Associations have the interests of the Breed AND the breeders in the forefront of their decision-making acts so that expediency does not supersede effectiveness.
What is important in Breeding Optimal Beef Cattle right now is what is Genetically Available - right now! And how do we determine those components???
KNOWLEDGE!
DOC HARRIS
Doc, I usually like your posts;....BUT what did that have to do with whether or not Fleckvieh Simmentals are slow fleshing or not??? Should S.R.R. stay away from using one of these Canadian Fleckvieh Simmentals (and I know little about Fleckviehs and less about those in Canada) or not? Why or why not. Me, I am old school and I like a framy, heavy muscled (if I can find it) Charolais for a terminal sire on British or British x Ear cattle (and I don't think S.R.R. has told us anything about his cowherd). I don't see anybody resisting change in this discussion???
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
B-2 - You asked what this had to do with Fleckvieh Simmentals. Somewhere in my compendium of Breed Information I remember reading about Fleckvieh (per se) being of the 'Old World German' breeding lines, and as such, were slow maturing cattle. Inasmuch as S.R.R. indicated that he was not overjoyed with the news that the 800 cow rancher was disappointed with the "slow fleshing ability of Simmentals", it seems logical to me that if he were using Fleckvieh bloodlines - that is exactly what he could expect to experience. If it were I seeking information, I wouldn't have to be knocked down with a milk can to see the implications involved!Brandonm2":2mfmx8yu said:
Believe me, I am of the old school of a Beef animal looking and breeding like a BEEF animal! Reference my reiterations on "Funnel Butt" Angus! And I am an avowed Angus enthusiast to say the very least! But I see and hear subliminal murmurings and mumblings throughout many of the breeds that portend to me the danger of 'lurching' into breed obscurity and loosing that 'framy, heavy muscled' phenotype.
But my main thrust regarding the rancher with the 800 cows was - if he were using 'Fleckvieh' breeding and lamenting the fact that they were 'slow fleshing' - -well - DUH! Yes, if I were S.R.R. and didn't want slow fleshing cattle, I would stay away from those cattle which were slow fleshing! That is why I stated that "some of the 'Old School' dogma is ponderable.
You stated that you don't see anybody resisting change in this discussion. Perhaps S.R.R. should investigate Simmentals in a herd that has traits of which he is more comfortable. And I imagine they can be found in Canada also. If not, I'll wager that they can be found in the United States. Seman can, for sure! And you are correct; S.R.R. hasn't revealed his cow genetics to us, and that is a large consideration in Bull selection, as you have alluded to in the past, B-2.
I guess that I am a little apprehensive regarding the subtle ( and not so subtle!) changes that I see happening to some of our great cattle because I am old enough to remember the absolutely devasting effects that the Sunbeam breeding had on Angus cattle, and I certainly don't want to live through that abomination and atrocity again. It took over 50 years to correct that absurd collection of errors which ALMOST destroyed the Angus breed along with a lot of fine farmers and ranchers and their families. I was there. Got the "T" shirt. Don't want to live through it again. That is why I am so adamant regarding EDUCATION and LEARNING and THINKING!
DOC HARRIS
Doc - you are right about change - can be good or can be bad. Right now, as a Simmental breeder, a am totally excited about the changes the American simm have made. Whether they are red or black (or polka dotted), the modern Simmental are moderate size, good muscling, less milk (but still plenty), with tons of guts.
Our national assn (ASA) is doing a lot of research (finally!) to prove our carcass qualities & easy calving. Did you know that "Simm sires now calve easier than Herefords and comparable to Angus (within 2%) when used on cows." (based on MARC research) We have "the largest structured-carcass-testing program (more than 30,000 females bred to date)."
They have also proven that Simm sires with a +10 CE can successfully be used on british heifers - based on Montana State Univ data collected on over 2000 british heifers.
A lot of this, as a 35+ year breeder, I already knew, but we now have research to back it up.
Some of this is change, some of it is just finally proven.
Our national assn (ASA) is doing a lot of research (finally!) to prove our carcass qualities & easy calving. Did you know that "Simm sires now calve easier than Herefords and comparable to Angus (within 2%) when used on cows." (based on MARC research) We have "the largest structured-carcass-testing program (more than 30,000 females bred to date)."
They have also proven that Simm sires with a +10 CE can successfully be used on british heifers - based on Montana State Univ data collected on over 2000 british heifers.
A lot of this, as a 35+ year breeder, I already knew, but we now have research to back it up.
Some of this is change, some of it is just finally proven.
The simmethal breed at least in the US has been mongrelized (as have some other breeds) to fit the current fad in the beef industry. I recently asked the question on another message board where the "black simmis" came from. A very well informed poster said they were developed from a "black baldie" base. To me it seems that the current simmie's in the US are nothing more than a composite breed.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
There are only a few pedigree full blood dogs left, Longhorn, Hereford, Angus and know you have some nut in Kansas trying to screw up the Herefords. The rest are just watered down Angus from cattlemen that couldn't compete with Angus leadership. So they covered poor managenent practices with black hide.
I wouldn't say poor management. I would say trying to get a square peg to fit in a round hole. What I mean is that most of the continental breeds were bred and developed for a dual or even triple purpose. Milk, meat, and labor. Few breeds were bred solely for beef. None of the continental breeds as they were bred can compete with the British breeds in PROFITABLE meat production and only survive today because of the subsidized grain fed feed lot industry. They can't be finished soley on forage or a limited grain diet. They weren't developed originally for that thus the type change to turn them all black hided to get that angus premium.
Note...As most continental breeders turned their breeds black and moderated frame to compete with Angus. Most of the popular angus breeders have turned their herds into big, growthy, hard doing cattle like the original continentals were.
Its really hard to find traditional, Purebred beef cattle anymore!
Note...As most continental breeders turned their breeds black and moderated frame to compete with Angus. Most of the popular angus breeders have turned their herds into big, growthy, hard doing cattle like the original continentals were.
Its really hard to find traditional, Purebred beef cattle anymore!
Black British based cows (not angus). I was thinking of Simmental because I could keep my calves more uniform by putting a black Simmental bull to them. As far as I know there are no black Char or I would be considering them as a terminal sire.
S.R.R.":2ixi41q3 said:
Both black and red Charolais are available in Canada. It's the only place I've heard of that has them. The vet just got back from a week at some bull stud in Alberta and they had bunch of them of all three colors.
dun
Here's a link
http://www.laueranch.com/charolais.html
Don;t know what ranch they were from or what the stud was.
dun
http://www.laueranch.com/charolais.html
Don;t know what ranch they were from or what the stud was.
dun
