DOC HARRIS":1vf23ph9 said:-2 - You asked what this had to do with Fleckvieh Simmentals. Somewhere in my compendium of Breed Information I remember reading about Fleckvieh (per se) being of the 'Old World German' breeding lines, and as such, were slow maturing cattle. Inasmuch as S.R.R. indicated that he was not overjoyed with the news that the 800 cow rancher was disappointed with the "slow fleshing ability of Simmentals", it seems logical to me that if he were using Fleckvieh bloodlines - that is exactly what he could expect to experience. If it were I seeking information, I wouldn't have to be knocked down with a milk can to see the implications involved!
Believe me, I am of the old school of a Beef animal looking and breeding like a BEEF animal! Reference my reiterations on "Funnel Butt" Angus! And I am an avowed Angus enthusiast to say the very least! But I see and hear subliminal murmurings and mumblings throughout many of the breeds that portend to me the danger of 'lurching' into breed obscurity and loosing that 'framy, heavy muscled' phenotype.
But my main thrust regarding the rancher with the 800 cows was - if he were using 'Fleckvieh' breeding and lamenting the fact that they were 'slow fleshing' - -well - DUH! Yes, if I were S.R.R. and didn't want slow fleshing cattle, I would stay away from those cattle which were slow fleshing! That is why I stated that "some of the 'Old School' dogma is ponderable.
You stated that you don't see anybody resisting change in this discussion. Perhaps S.R.R. should investigate Simmentals in a herd that has traits of which he is more comfortable. And I imagine they can be found in Canada also. If not, I'll wager that they can be found in the United States. Seman can, for sure! And you are correct; S.R.R. hasn't revealed his cow genetics to us, and that is a large consideration in Bull selection, as you have alluded to in the past, B-2.
I guess that I am a little apprehensive regarding the subtle ( and not so subtle!) changes that I see happening to some of our great cattle because I am old enough to remember the absolutely devasting effects that the Sunbeam breeding had on Angus cattle, and I certainly don't want to live through that abomination and atrocity again. It took over 50 years to correct that absurd collection of errors which ALMOST destroyed the Angus breed along with a lot of fine farmers and ranchers and their families. I was there. Got the "T" shirt. Don't want to live through it again. That is why I am so adamant regarding EDUCATION and LEARNING and THINKING!
DOC HARRIS
I don't disagree with much of that when directed at breeders in general; but I still think you were a little harsh when that was directed at S.R.R. He was interested in some Simmentals. Rather than just go out and buy some Simmentals and throw the genetic dice he did research and talked to a local rancher who was more experienced with them and was told that they are slow finishing (compared to the typical Angus they certainly are). That might have been enough for some people, but S.R.R. tooks his concerns to us on the internet for our input. I really don't see him frozen by pessimism. I think you also hit on a good point. The major breeds are becoming so diverse that talking in generalities about Simmies, Angus, Herfs, Chars, Lims, etc is becoming an almost meaningless dicussion. Your friend, "Prince Sunbeam" http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4055414254 (you got to love the gaudy $41 EN number though)
versus something like 5175
http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_dtl ... 4042544743
is quite a difference in performance.
Though both are "Anguses" their performance is wildly varying and they are probably not the most extreme ends of their types. If "5175" is your mental idea of an Angus you are going to have very different views than if "Prince Sunbeam 29" is your mental Angus standard, and both probably still have descendents being born out there somewhere. Now you can find early maturing Charolais and frame score 8 Angus's and calving ease Simms; thus answering a question like "are Simms slow fleshing" becomes almost an impossible exercise.