bobrammer
Well-known member
I know it's been discussed before, but I couldn't figure out how to search for it. Can one of you guys explain EPDs to me?
Many thanks, RGR
Many thanks, RGR
Please explain EPDs.
- Thread starter bobrammer
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jersey lilly
Well-known member
It's kinda complex, but then again it's not. Here's a website on EPD Basics. Hope this helps. I know DOCHARRIS can explain it, probably in alot easier terms to understand than this.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/beef/compo ... bcmu27.pdf
http://www.extension.umn.edu/beef/compo ... bcmu27.pdf
bobrammer":3dl8gmjo said:
EPDs are a simple tool best used to compare one breeding animal to another. If bull A has a BW EPD of 5, you would EXPECT his calves to weight 5 more pounds at birth than if you bred those same cows to a bull (of the same breed) with a BW EPD of 0. If bull A has a Weaning Weight EPD of 30, you would EXPECT his calves to weight 30 more pounds at weaning than if you bred those same cows to a bull (same breed) that had a WW EPD of 0. That's how all EPDs work. You can't compare an Angus bull with a BW EPD of 3 to a bull of any other breed with a BW EPD of 3. EPDs are as good as the information that creates them. The Angus Assn has several million records in their EPD database and, in my opinion, that makes their EPDs most reliable, but they're still EXPECTED differences.
Don't hesitate to ask more questions if this doesn't answer your question.
bobrammer
Well-known member
Thanks. I have two registered Angus bull calves that haven't been weaned yet. Right now their EPDs have all blanks. Am I correct that I will begin to fill in the blanks as they mature?
Weaned weight etc.? Again, thanks for your help! Bob
Weaned weight etc.? Again, thanks for your help! Bob
jersey lilly
Well-known member
After doin this search and reading your post again. I think what gets so confusing tryin to read epd's is the fact that no where do they put what the 0 stands for.... you know...take bw for example...it may say +5. is that +5 on top of a 70 lb average....or 80 lb average??? makes it kinda hard if you dont know what the base line is on that 0 mark.
I sometimes think I'm dyslexic or something, bout the time I think I understand the EPD's then it's like I have to learn all over again.
I sometimes think I'm dyslexic or something, bout the time I think I understand the EPD's then it's like I have to learn all over again.
bobrammer":31dl6d69 said:
EPD boxes are blank because no data was reported on their sires and dams and probably their sires and dams. The Angus Association takes EPDs very seriously. They won't compute EPDs on animals that don't have a certain amount of data available on the database.
If you report their data, BW, WW, YW, etc., whether or not they'll get EPDs depends on what information is available on their sire, dam and other relatives.
Do their papers show either of the parents had interim (I) EPDs? If they have interims, probably all you need to do is report the calves' weights in a proper contemporary group to take the Interim off the parent and give the calves Interim EPDs. Does that make any sense?
jersey lilly":8ezo6jph said:
EPDs will never tell you what something will weigh. Would you expect a Jersey cow's calf to weigh the same as a Simmental cow's calf, even if bred to the same bull?
EPDs can only tell you that if you breed Bull A (with a 5 lb BW EPD) to those two cows, you can EXPECT the calves to weigh 5 more pounds at birth than if you bred Bull B (with a 0 BW EPD) to the same cows.
Larry Sansom
Well-known member
jersey lilly":139aanpn said:
No the "o" or the "+5" means nothing - just a base from years ago. It is just a DIFFERENCE BETWEEN TWO EPD'S that is all you are talking about. Rmember also that Milk EPD is not pounds of milk - just pounds of growth expected in the animals Daughters! We are talking 2+ years out to see that EPD affect anyything. It very seldom relates to actual milk production.
Don't get hung up on EPD - remember it is an Average of expected results - you MUST also look at the animal.
jersey lilly
Well-known member
that's not what I meant...breeding different breeds....what I meant was...say you have angus cows.....and you have two angus bulls.....A is 0 on the EPD BW and B is 5 on EPD BW.......I understand that it's "expected that the second bulls calves will weigh 5 lbs more than the first one. But if the first one is 0.....how do you know what his calves are expected to weigh? Other than 5 lbs less than the second bull. It's clear as mud.....what I was asking. is there a base line average that they start with.......like..............75 lb calves.........bull A would be expected to produce 75 lb calves and bull B would be expected to produce 80 lb calves. ?????
jersey lilly":3vrp4img said:
0 is the average of the breed for the year when the database began and the EPDs first calculated (officially). For Angus or Herford that would be sometime in the mid 70s. While those numbers are out there someplace, I would not worry about what was an avg birthweight or weaning weight in ~1975 Reg. Herefords. Your management and environment has more effect on your weaning weight and birth weight than the genetics do anyway. What the EPD is really telling me is that bull A with a +40 weaning wt EPD should give me an average of 10 pounds a calf weaning advantage over Bull B with a +30 EPD if bred to the same set of cows. Obviously cows grazing range in Montana are not going to wean as heavy a calf as a grain farm in Iowa or a family's small heavily managed set of show cattle. Real weaning weights can vary between 350 and 750 pounds on the same bull depending on what kind of cows you bred him to and how those cows were being managed under what environment. What the EPD is telling you is what that paticular animal should do when compared to those other animals in his contemporary group. Whether or not your calves' birth weights are heavier or not than the average 1975 birth weight really is not telling you much about the accuracy of the EPD.
jersey lilly":2kswzeuq said:
That's all they can really tell you is that X% of one bulls calves will weight 5 lbs more then the others. EPDs aren;t meant to predict weights, only the expected variation between aniamls.
dun
jersey lilly
Well-known member
LOL all this info...or non info on EPDs just explains to me.....why I go by how a bull looks and what his calves look like, rather than numbers. I understand the basics of what it means. but if those numbers basically boil down to 0 not meaning a thing......it dont do me a whole heck of a lot of good.
jersey lilly":2qvd5jdy said:
Zero meant something many years ago when EPDs first evolved from EBVs.
That's one of the reasons I think this common EPD base that the enlightened breeds are establishing will be a big help for those of us that use crossbreeding. Won;t hurt the people that are seedstock suppliers. May even save them a little money in the long run since some of the universitys that are currently doing the EPDs are wantingto get out of the business.
dun
jersey lilly":2v0uamll said:
Your making it more complex than it is. 0 does not represent a birth weight. It is a EPD. IF your herd due to genetics, environment, and management has an avg birth weight of 75 pounds and you use the two EPD birth wt bulls of 0 and 5 what the EPD is predicting is that the +5 bull's calves will weigh 5 lbs more than the 0 birth wt bull's calves. Depending on your cow herd and the weather you could then have 80 and 85 lb calves or 65 and 70 lb calves from the two bulls and unless your herd is GIANT I doubt your will even see that perfect 5 pounds spread consistently either.
EVEN in a registered herd where all the cows have EPDs it would be presumptuous to predict REAL birth wts from the EPDs; though IF you did in the above herd if the avg Cow herd's EPD was +2; then (purely theoretically) you would expect birth weights of 73 and 78 pounds from those two bulls in THAT herd. The 0 birth wt bull is going to drop the calf crop's avg by 2 pounds (in that +2 herd) and the +5 bull will increase it by +3. That math is not even worth doing though in the real world because of year to year environmental variation, low accuracy with the EPDs, outcross effects, variation in how soon you weigh the calves, etc.
cypressfarms
Well-known member
There are also across the breed EPD adjustment numbers issued yearly by the department of agriculture.
As if it weren't complicated enough, you can compare an angus bull to a hereford bull by using these adjustments factors. By doing this you could, for example, pick a bull of any breed that you like to provide (lower birth weight, more milk, higher weaning weight etc) which traits you need. These are only statistical calculations, however, and represent what you should expect. They are revised frequently, because cattle performance has improved, so a weaning weight of 0 10 years ago is different than a weaning weight of 0 today, even with the same breed.
As if it weren't complicated enough, you can compare an angus bull to a hereford bull by using these adjustments factors. By doing this you could, for example, pick a bull of any breed that you like to provide (lower birth weight, more milk, higher weaning weight etc) which traits you need. These are only statistical calculations, however, and represent what you should expect. They are revised frequently, because cattle performance has improved, so a weaning weight of 0 10 years ago is different than a weaning weight of 0 today, even with the same breed.
I have read info on EPDs and kinda(??)understand. Everything tells me what they are, but my simple question(HAHAHA)is what is the best numbers for each category??? Is it different for every breed?? My friend bought an Angus bull at a Perfromance sale in Ohio a couple of years ago. Everyone told him he screwed up because the Birth weight # was so high and his heifers would never ba able to calve. But he didn't have a bit of problem and never lost a calf. Actually they were the best calves he had. Is there somewhere I can get a break down in country terms??? :cboy:
cypressfarms
Well-known member
Hi wvcowgirl,
Birth weight EPD is what you "should" expect when comparing your friends angus to other angus bulls.
Since angus bulls, in general, have lower birth weights than many other breeds, the actual calf weight could be easily handled by his cows, OR
Maybe he took real good care of his cows and they weren't too fat at calving time. He may have larger frame animals that can handle the calf size, older cows that have a much lower risk of calving problems. OR
The calf shape coming out from moma could have been easy for her to handle, even if the weight was a little high. (My dad swears by Brangus bulls because in his opinion they sire calves that come out "wedge" shaped and long, which can usually be handled better by a cow than a calf that has a big head and shoulders at birth).
Is this making sense???
Too many variables to talk about. Oh and I just forgot the study by the USDA that showed birth weights for "northern" born calves were higher than "southern" born calves (They actually moved two herds, and proved this). Also fall born calves have a tendancy to not be as high birth weight as spring born. The two items I read in goverment publications.
Information overload..... I know
Birth weight EPD is what you "should" expect when comparing your friends angus to other angus bulls.
Since angus bulls, in general, have lower birth weights than many other breeds, the actual calf weight could be easily handled by his cows, OR
Maybe he took real good care of his cows and they weren't too fat at calving time. He may have larger frame animals that can handle the calf size, older cows that have a much lower risk of calving problems. OR
The calf shape coming out from moma could have been easy for her to handle, even if the weight was a little high. (My dad swears by Brangus bulls because in his opinion they sire calves that come out "wedge" shaped and long, which can usually be handled better by a cow than a calf that has a big head and shoulders at birth).
Is this making sense???
Too many variables to talk about. Oh and I just forgot the study by the USDA that showed birth weights for "northern" born calves were higher than "southern" born calves (They actually moved two herds, and proved this). Also fall born calves have a tendancy to not be as high birth weight as spring born. The two items I read in goverment publications.
Information overload..... I know
Each breeds EPD numbers are different, so what is a good BW for one breed generally isn;t a good one for another. Now to define "good". It all depends. Each producer has different needs and levels of weights/ traits that are right for them. What's "good" for one cow may be "bad" for another. High BW may lead to calving problems, very high WW may put too much of a drain on the cow so that she doesn;t breed back, very high YW may lead to excessive frame creep/mature size if heifers are retained. Very high milk can lead to the same problems as WW excesses. Depending on the cow, forage, market and plans for heifer calves, each of these enter into the equation. So, what it all boils down to is that there is no "good" or "bad" unless inappropriate choices are made. Forage and marketing are the basis that all decisions have to evaluated on. You need to know where you are with your cow herd to determine what will make them work well with the forage base and the market you want to reach.
dun
dun
wvcowgirl":10d62bxg said:
The best way to evaluate EPDs is to find what the breed average is and work from there. Most Breed association websites have them as do the better AI companies websites. Here is the EPD breakdown for the Hereford breed.....
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2B3C2B3C3A
Top 50% is average and average cattle should work for most people. That is generally a good, safe functional animal.
There is a tendency to seek the top 5% or top 1%. Do that WITH care. Average Hereford cattle could use more muscle so a bull in the top 1% for REA is probably a good thing. Ditto with top 1% for marbling.
I would be a little scared of top 1% for Backfat. I would rather have cattle that are better than breed average; but if you get TOO lean are we getting hard fleshing cows back on the farm? I really would like to see some female relatives back on the farm (always a good idea) before making a call on how lean to go with a specific bull. Scrotal circumference is directly related to fertility so the higher the number the better there.
As has already been mentioned excessive mature cow size is getting to be a real concern. I would NOT just assume that a bull with high weaning wt. and yearling wt. EPDs is big framed out of a big framed 1700 pound cow OR that a bull with average growth EPDs is a moderate framed bull out of an easy fleshing little modest sized cow. IF you are about to spend money on live cattle or semen, call the breeder and ask how big the mama cow is/was (he should know) and what frame score and mature weight the bull is. Even better eyeball a few of a bull's daughters or his mama (if possible) and sisters. Find out if they are the style and size cows you want and you believe they would work in your environment. Take the highest growth numbers you can get out of cows you consider to be ideal.
The Milk EPD is another controversial number. Average for a Hereford is +14. I would be wary of anything much lower than that. Unless your environment is really hostile you won't have any problem wintering a Herf with a +14 milk. IF you have no problem with cows getting down during lactation you can get up there with the trait leaders at +28.
Maternal calving ease is the relative ease of an animal's daughters. IF you have a lot of calving problems in your herd this is an important number. For me I don't know how reliable that is so it is not a number I worry about a lot. Anything in the Top 80% is fine for me. If this is a particular concern in your herd, find something in the top 40%.
Direct calving ease is a big number if you are breeding a bull to heifers. The higher the number the better. If we are not talking about heifers, direct calving ease does not concern me greatly in a Hereford. Anything in the top 65% should be fine. Dittoe with birth weight. A mature cow should be able to handle anything up to a Hereford with a +5.5 (top 85% of the breed). If we are breeding heifers I would rather not go that high. I would try to stay in the top 25% of the breed (+2.5) on a bull that was going to breed a lot of heifers. There is a tendency to seek out the lowest possible birth weight (and Genex has two good bulls at -.7 or less); but there can be a negative effect on growth and muscling if you chase the "calving ease" too hard.
Every breed has a different set of EPDs and different strengths and weaknesses. Study your breed, your herd, and your numbers to know what the breed and your herd is capable of and then find the phenotype and genotype cattle that will bring the most to your particular situation.
Please explain, went to web site ????????
Here's how my papers read, Polled hereford
"SIRE" - PROGENY
Number Averages
Birth WT 24 101.4%
Weaning WT 14 100.6%
Yearling WT 1 95.0%
Yr.Sc. Cir. 39.0cm
GOOD ?? BAD???
Always looked at cows not the papers?? ;-)
Here's how my papers read, Polled hereford
"SIRE" - PROGENY
Number Averages
Birth WT 24 101.4%
Weaning WT 14 100.6%
Yearling WT 1 95.0%
Yr.Sc. Cir. 39.0cm
GOOD ?? BAD???
Always looked at cows not the papers?? ;-)
