EPDs - Just Out

[Travlr]

Well, I've got between 100 and 200 acres. That'd be a lot more paddocks. Central Texas doesn't have y'all's grass, either. I figure 1 cow to 10 acres is safe for my place…

Why would it be more? Why would you divide up a place for more pastures than you need to rotate efficiently? I don't know your situation but mine worked well on a ten week rotation. Some pastures less, some more time depending on grass type and acreage size. South Dakota wasn't the best for grass either, but good practices allowed me to put more animals on it than the neighbors were running.

 

[Travlr]

We all have our constraints. And I've heard back and forth on the cheap vs expensive cows.

but none of the cattlemen around me seem to have 1400lb cows. They seem to stick to the 1100 to 1200Lbs range. I'd like about 1100 average when they're in good condition, myself.

Yeah, I did 1100/1200 in Arkansas... but in SD bigger cows worked better. And it's not "cheap vs expensive" as much as it's poor vs quality.

 

[rocfarm]

Why would it be more? Why would you divide up a place for more pastures than you need to rotate efficiently? I don't know your situation but mine worked well on a ten week rotation. Some pastures less, some more time depending on grass type and acreage size. South Dakota wasn't the best for grass either, but good practices allowed me to put more animals on it than the neighbors were running.

I thought you meant you moved them every day into permanent paddocks.

My place is set up with six permanent paddocks. Got two reels with two solar chargers and I use turbo wire. Do rotate. But more on take half leave half principles and not on a set time frame. I'm fine with leaving cattle in one paddock for a month or more if the grass looks good. I tend to rest my natives more, but I'll push my Klein and common Bermuda, or at least plan to this year. If we get good rain this spring, I might even leave my entire herd on my 20 acres of Klein from May to the end of July And rest all my other acreage, especially the native stuff.

the metric I like for my grazing is that you can graze the pasture once for every 10 inches of rain you get. So, for my place, that means each paddock can be grazed about 3x each year.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Got one out there now. If she drops a calf and it brings 500, I'll pay for her and her feed in one year. We'll see.

I would say one cow is slow coming........

 

[rocfarm]

I would say one cow is slow coming........

?

 

[gcreekrch]

Now, don't go rogue on him. He is just starting out. Wants beef cattle and spending what he can.
WE know taking short cuts, trying "new" ideas, cutting expenses, generally ends up costing more money than spending money.
The reason people are harping on your statement about moving cattle is because whether you have 5 cows or 500, if you give them just a big enough pasture to graze, that will last them 1 to 5 days, you will get a whole lot more nutrition in your cattle, and the pastures will grow back faster and keep providing the cattle with lush, growing plants.
It does not take but a few minutes to move your herd. They catch on quick. Open a gate and call them.
Leave the cattle on the same ground, and they will quickly eat the good stuff.....over and over, killing off the best, until all they have is junk to eat.
You should NEVER let them graze the same spot more than 7 days because they will start eating the regrowth.
When you put them on a small area, they eat EVERYTHING, but no regrowth.
The paddock needs to rest for at least 30 days around here. This may drastically be different in different areas.

I wasn't trying to sound as rough as I came off but sometimes the real true is pretty raw.
In the end we all make our choices

 

[Brute 23]

A small operation cant justify a good bull but it can justify a heifer bull to breed mongrel offspring?

Some one please hit the report button and get me banned from this thread.

 

[Travlr]

I thought you meant you moved them every day into permanent paddocks.

My place is set up with six permanent paddocks. Got two reels with two solar chargers and I use turbo wire. Do rotate. But more on take half leave half principles and not on a set time frame. I'm fine with leaving cattle in one paddock for a month or more if the grass looks good. I tend to rest my natives more, but I'll push my Klein and common Bermuda, or at least plan to this year. If we get good rain this spring, I might even leave my entire herd on my 20 acres of Klein from May to the end of July And rest all my other acreage, especially the native stuff.

the metric I like for my grazing is that you can graze the pasture once for every 10 inches of rain you get. So, for my place, that means each paddock can be grazed about 3x each year.

I don't use the word "paddock" except for small spaces used for horses. I know Aussies and Europeans use the term for large pastures... so maybe we are speaking in different terms.

 

[rocfarm]

A small operation cant justify a good bull but it can justify a heifer bull to breed mongrel offspring?

Some one please hit the report button and get me banned from this thread.

Actually, here's my planned heifer bull. Bought his mom for $450 in August. She looks a bit rough but looked worse at the auction and had a limp, btw. Her limp is gone and she's doing ok on raising him. Don't know if she'll breed back, but will let her add weight and sell in November is she doesn't. I think the little bull's birth weight was around 65. Plan on getting this one tested when he's 18 months .

 

[rocfarm]

I don't use the word "paddock" except for small spaces used for horses. I know Aussies and Europeans use the term for large pastures... so maybe we are speaking in different terms.

Learned paddock from that internet searching. Got a few Aussie friends. Love them.

 

[Lucky_P]

I have gained a lot of my knowledge from the school of hard knocks.
Bought a red Angus bull represented as a low birth hfr bull. He was anything but. Pulled most of his calves. Some of his daughters turned out really well and we saved them. Pulled calves out of them. Started pelv measuring and decided to measure the RA bull too. And a yearlings blk bull for comparison. The yearlings blk bull out measured the 3yr old red bull! The RA bull instantly became a terminal cross. He was big on the outside but small inside and pasted that on to his calves.

SBMF... the Red Angus bull BufCrk Cherokee Canyon 4192, iirc, brought really big ribeye to the equation, but his maternal calving ease was horrendous... daughters had little slit-like pelvic canals (CETM -14).
He was, at one time, one of the heaviest-used bulls in the breed... I knew someone who had a bunch of Cherokee Canyon daughters, bred to N Bar Prime Time D806, a high-accuracy calving ease black Angus sire (+12 CED, -2.0 BW)... she had to pull every one of those tiny little calves, 'cause those heifers had narrow little pelvic canals. It was a wreck.
I wanted to use him, but females were always my target... so, NO!

 

[Travlr]

Actually, here's my planned heifer bull. Bought his mom for $450 in August. She looks a bit rough but looked worse at the auction and had a limp, btw. Her limp is gone and she's doing ok on raising him. Don't know if she'll breed back, but will let her add weight and sell in November is she doesn't. I think the little bull's birth weight was around 65. Plan on getting this one tested when he's 18 months .

View attachment 25279

IMO, he's not bull material although he'd make an average steer.

 

[J+ Cattle]

A small operation cant justify a good bull but it can justify a heifer bull to breed mongrel offspring?

Some one please hit the report button and get me banned from this thread.

He also doesn't have time for AI but has time to post close to 400 messages since July. Some people can't be helped…

 

[Lucky_P]

We had our place divided into sixteen 5-acre paddocks and two 10 acre paddocks. Cows moved to a fresh paddock mostly every day, though at some times of peak grass growth, they *might* stay in one paddock for as much as 3 days. They were ALWAYS ready to move to a new paddock... took longer to walk/drive out there than it did to move them, unless there were new stupid baby calves that you'd have to try to get to follow mom & rest of the herd.
80 cows + 20-40 calves would hammer a 5 acre paddock in short order, some times of the year.

The longer they stay in one paddock the more grass that they pee and poop and lie on... and don't/won't eat. We shot for a 21-30 day period before they came back to a previously grazed paddock; longer was better, but sometimes we had to run them through faster.

 

[rocfarm]

IMO, he's not bull material although he'd make an average steer.

Well, looking at the bull I'm using now, he's probably not bull material, either. So we'll see. Don't think I'll save enough money to make any big changes this year, though.

 

[Travlr]

Well, looking at the bull I'm using now, he's probably not bull material, either. So we'll see. Don't think I'll save enough money to make any big changes this year, though.

I'm going to make an assumption that you want to learn about what makes a good bull.

EPDs give a good clue, but I value conformation at least as much. A good bull is going to be masculine. That mainly means muscle. I prefer a heavy rear end with deep muscle into the hock. The top line should be straight, the body reasonably deep, and not a lot of belly. Proportionate. The torso should have as much length as possible. This is where the money cuts come from. The brisket shouldn't be waste (fatty and large) and the sheath should be close to the body. In areas where a bull has to travel significant distances, places where a cow/calf unit barely survive on a hundred acres, people like some leg. On a smaller place leg isn't as necessary. A bull needs to move well, not too stiffly in the rear legs, relaxed in the front. Rear legs should have some angle rather than be vertical. Good feet are important.

Your calf is short coupled and leggy. He isn't deep in the body, but has some muscle in the rear but not deep, and isn't showing much masculinity. I don't know his age and he may muscle up more, but he'd be cut if he were mine simply because of his lack of length. Length is one of the most important criteria and professional buyers of your calves will notice.

I'd bet that @Jeanne - Simme Valley could post some good examples of bulls you could learn from. I know she has some great cows.

That's how I look at a bull. Other people may have other criteria.

 

[Brute 23]

I'm starting to think this is a reincarnation or some one messing around with anither user name. No way this can be real.

 

[kenny thomas]

Well, looking at the bull I'm using now, he's probably not bull material, either. So we'll see. Don't think I'll save enough money to make any big changes this year, though.

I think the bull you are using now is much better than the calf.

 

[rocfarm]

I'm going to make an assumption that you want to learn about what makes a good bull.

EPDs give a good clue, but I value conformation at least as much. A good bull is going to be masculine. That mainly means muscle. I prefer a heavy rear end with deep muscle into the hock. The top line should be straight, the body reasonably deep, and not a lot of belly. Proportionate. The torso should have as much length as possible. This is where the money cuts come from. The brisket shouldn't be waste (fatty and large) and the sheath should be close to the body. In areas where a bull has to travel significant distances, places where a cow/calf unit barely survive on a hundred acres, people like some leg. On a smaller place leg isn't as necessary. A bull needs to move well, not too stiffly in the rear legs, relaxed in the front. Rear legs should have some angle rather than be vertical. Good feet are important.

Your calf is short coupled and leggy. He isn't deep in the body, but has some muscle in the rear but not deep, and isn't showing much masculinity. I don't know his age and he may muscle up more, but he'd be cut if he were mine simply because of his lack of length. Length is one of the most important criteria and professional buyers of your calves will notice.

I'd bet that @Jeanne - Simme Valley could post some good examples of bulls you could learn from. I know she has some great cows.

That's how I look at a bull. Other people may have other criteria.

I don't have any experience, but I think I agree. Don't expect to get any great calves out of him. But I thought heifer bulls basically give you calves that are worth less but are smaller at birth and take it easier in your heifers. Also, heifers don't milk as well so you are going to wean smaller calves anyway. I know you can AI bulls that throw small calves but have decent growth, but again, not interested in AI right now.

Thanks for the instruction, though. When I do buy another bull, might send you a pic/ video first if that's ok.

 

[rocfarm]

I think the bull you are using now is much better than the calf.

I thought so too.

So I should consider just selling his calves and buying replacements, keeping him longer if he throws #2 calves or better. If I could use him for 5 years it would certainly be cost efficient.

That's an idea I can consider.