Noob to Angus cattle and EPDs

[BayerFooted]

greetings everyone! I am not only new to this forum, but I'd say I'm really fresh to the scene of the ranching industry. I grew up in a city, married into this and my husband and I have taken over the 100+ year family farm in 2012. I've been given the cows, so with that comes the daunting and overwhelming task of trying to get a grasp on what the heck all those EPDs mean and the lineage of the best bulls for a commercial cow/calf operation. I think I have the jist of it but I do not have anyone to help me really. My husband is a small grains guy (hence why I get the cows) and my FIL just threw a bull out with the cows to get a calf with no intention of getting anything other than a calf the next spring. I started with a herd with NO records.

I have since put together since 2012 records including the bulls who may have sired any heifer we've kept, and cows productivity on every individual cow. (I've grown to 210 head from 90)

I realize that folks opinions are going to be partial to bulls and even the cow family they come from which I think are just as important to look at the bottom as well as the top.

1.) When looking at a sire, WW and YW EPDs are best when higher?

2.) Milk numbers around 25 are good, no higher than 30 or lower than 20, right?

3.) Birth weight and BW EPD closest to 0 gives best chance to reflect that BW and the higher the point reflects the greater the chance of a calf weighing more at birth and conversely a negative may reflect a lower birth weight?

I have tons more questions, but I will try to keep it to this for now as I am naturally long winded.

I am sorry if this is a set of such ignorant questions, I have no one to ask to understand and have learned quickly in my area no one has the time of day to take someone like me under their wing to coach on these things. I'm somehow supposed to just know and understand all of this. Appreciate any help. Thank you

 

[Peace]

Hello and welcome. I have a couple questions to ask you. 1) Where are you located? It will help if we know your climate, elevation and environment. 2) What are you actually trying to accomplish? Do you want big weaned calves that you don't care how much you feed them or what it costs? Do you plan to take replacement heifers from your herd or does that not matter? Don't worry, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the people that go looking for a bull just look at the numbers and think "this will be great" but don't really know what they're actually doing to their herd.

 

[sstterry]

Welcome, and I hope you enjoy the Board. I could try to answer some of your questions, but there are those that are more knowledgeable that can probably do a better job.

I will say this, Peace is right, numbers aren't everything and while they may give an indication, a lot will depend on what you are breeding for, A lot depends on your desire for calving ease, seed stock, commercial cattle,ect.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Welcome to Cattle Today. Excellent introduction.

My thoughts on your questions are as follows:
1) yes but within reason.
2) 20-25 works for me.
3) correct but don't freak out over positive birth weights for mature cows.

Glad you found us!

 

[BayerFooted]

Hello and welcome. I have a couple questions to ask you. 1) Where are you located? It will help if we know your climate, elevation and environment. 2) What are you actually trying to accomplish? Do you want big weaned calves that you don't care how much you feed them or what it costs? Do you plan to take replacement heifers from your herd or does that not matter? Don't worry, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the people that go looking for a bull just look at the numbers and think "this will be great" but don't really know what they're actually doing to their herd.

I am in Central North Dakota, we get a bit chilly in the winter (was -26 for me this morning), and can get toasty in the summer (95+). Frequently met with lovely breezes that can rearrange unsecured things and make for a bad hair day. I want to say our elevation is 1100-1200 ft.

We are a cow calf operation, and we retain heifers from our herd. We wean and background our calves before selling them for the buyer to finish. We wean calves in the 5 and 6 weights, and sell 550-700lbs.

I am understanding that there is a massive difference between a maternal her vs a terminal herd. Is there any way to try and make the best of both worlds?

Of course it would be lovely to have huge weaning calves that gain well on feed and retain maternal traits but it appears that's somewhat of a fantasy.

We do not creep, and when we bring our cows home and wean in November, they are fed silage with chopped alfalfa/grass or cover crop hay and a full mineral program (vigortone) and have choice to baled hay. Not sure the bovine buffet matters to this or not but there it is.

I don't like high maintenance cattle, if they come home from pasture and have poor body score they go bye bye. No excuse. I don't tolerate bad attitudes either, life is too short for hot tempered cows.

Thank you so much for replying. I'm a sponge thirsting for knowledge on how to improve this herd I've found myself responsible for while hubby plays with plants in the dirt.

 

[BayerFooted]

Welcome to Cattle Today. Excellent introduction.

My thoughts on your questions are as follows:
1) yes but within reason.
2) 20-25 works for me.
3) correct but don't freak out over positive birth weights for mature cows.

Glad you found us!

Thank you Tennessee Tuxedo! To expand on #3, with mature cows that are between 1500-1600lbs, a mid 90's BW out of calving ease bulls(yes, I understand that number is generally designated for heifers) should be handleable? It's within 7% of mother's weight.

 

[WFfarm]

EPDs are important, but don't discount a being able to pick out a good cow by eye for the traits you want. Also, having production records for all your cows will give you a good tool for building a productive herd. Someone once told me you can't manage what you don't measure.

 

[BayerFooted]

I might want to add that longevity is a strong desire eithy me. My Walt Disney upbringing gets me attached to these ladies and the longer I can keep them, they can breed back on time and raise a decent calf (not a goat) for me the better. Seems there is a snag in the herd where we either get a few good years out of the critter then either she skips settling with a calf, she suddenly loses body score and dies or needs to be culled. I've had that happen too many times I care to count with 4-8 year old cows.

Or we have a handful of rockstars that are 12+ years old (oldest still retained in herd is 15) and still marching on strong. These ladies are of course obvious cows to keep their heifers IF they have them.

Occasionally I get bad feet or bags, they go bye bye.

 

[BayerFooted]

EPDs are important, but don't discount a being able to pick out a good cow by eye for the traits you want. Also, having production records for all your cows will give you a good tool for building a productive herd. Someone once told me you can't manage what you don't measure.

Absolutely! Our local vet once teased me that I take too much information for a commercial herd and that I do the work of a registered herd. I have a few cows who once had papers (I know who they are, but do not have their paperwork) and my FIL scoffed at me for recording "every silly detail". I like information, maybe it is moot.

 

[simme]

Understand that EPD values are specific to a breed. A birth weight EPD of +1.0 in breed A is not the same as a +1.0 in breed B. Each breed will have a breed average for each of their EPD's. The numbers are published by each breed association. Within a breed, a bull with a BW EPD of +1.0 will on average sire a calf 1 pound lighter than a bull with a BW EPD of +2.0 IF bred to the same cow or equal. EPD's are predictions - not absolutes. And the contribution of the cow is equal to the contribution of the bull. Each breed association will have a chart that shows where a numeric value fits within the breed. In other words, a BW of +6 may correspond to the bottom 10% of the breed (highest birth weights) and a BW of -4 may correspond to the top 10% of the breed (lighter birth weights) with a BW EPD of +1 being breed average. Numbers made up for this illustration.
Then each bull will have an accuracy for each of his EPD's. If his BW accuracy is 17%, that EPD value is not as dependable as the EPD on a bull with an accuracy of 70%. Accuracy increases with data submitted on lots of progeny. Heavily used AI sires will generally have high accuracies due to number of calves.
WW and YW EPD's - the higher the number, the heavier the expected weight from his calves relative to the calves from a bull with lower WW and YW EPD's IF the cows are equal in growth EPD's and the calves are all raised in the same environment and nutrition level.
Milk EPD's - numeric values depend on the breed. The higher the number, the more expected milk in the bull's daughters. High milk requires a higher nutrition level in order to produce the milk and maintain body condition. Lower milk should produce lower growth in calves and help maintain body condition in more challenging environments. Milk EPD's need to fit the environment. Year round lush grass can support a high milk EPD. Desert range requires a lower milk EPD.
BW EPD - higher the number, the more the BW. Calving Ease EPD (CE) may be more useful than BW. Higher CE number indicates less assistance required at birth. Someone said that a cow could easily birth a 200# snake, but could not birth a 30# bowling ball. Point is that calf shape has more effect than calf weight as far as calving problems.
Many a person has made the mistake of chasing extreme EPD values. Like, if a little is good, more must be better. Or, I want a bull that is in the top 5% on all EPD's. Usually extremes in anything are too extreme for most. It may be that a better goal is the top 30-40% of the breed EPD's.
If you keep replacement heifers from a bull, then you need to look at Maternal traits such as Milk and Maternal Calving Ease and Stay. If you are selling all the offspring of a bull, then no reason to be concerned over Milk or MCE. Put emphasis on growth and carcass.
Lots more to selecting cattle than just EPD's - as is stated above.

Each breed association will have EPD educational info. Here is some info on simmental EPD's.

Quick Reference to ASA EPD and $ Indexes

American Simmental Association, Bozeman, MT, Sire summary search, animal database, herdbook Cattle breeding, Cattle Genetics beef, Angus, SimGenetics crossbreeding

simmental.org

 

[Peace]

greetings everyone! I am not only new to this forum, but I'd say I'm really fresh to the scene of the ranching industry. I grew up in a city, married into this and my husband and I have taken over the 100+ year family farm in 2012. I've been given the cows, so with that comes the daunting and overwhelming task of trying to get a grasp on what the heck all those EPDs mean and the lineage of the best bulls for a commercial cow/calf operation. I think I have the jist of it but I do not have anyone to help me really. My husband is a small grains guy (hence why I get the cows) and my FIL just threw a bull out with the cows to get a calf with no intention of getting anything other than a calf the next spring. I started with a herd with NO records.

I have since put together since 2012 records including the bulls who may have sired any heifer we've kept, and cows productivity on every individual cow. (I've grown to 210 head from 90)

I realize that folks opinions are going to be partial to bulls and even the cow family they come from which I think are just as important to look at the bottom as well as the top.

1.) When looking at a sire, WW and YW EPDs are best when higher?

2.) Milk numbers around 25 are good, no higher than 30 or lower than 20, right?

3.) Birth weight and BW EPD closest to 0 gives best chance to reflect that BW and the higher the point reflects the greater the chance of a calf weighing more at birth and conversely a negative may reflect a lower birth weight?

I have tons more questions, but I will try to keep it to this for now as I am naturally long winded.

I am sorry if this is a set of such ignorant questions, I have no one to ask to understand and have learned quickly in my area no one has the time of day to take someone like me under their wing to coach on these things. I'm somehow supposed to just know and understand all of this. Appreciate any help. Thank you

I have no idea where you started, but here is probably a good spot.... it's the American Angus Association's explanation of EPDs... one thing to keep in mind is usually all things are connected by protaganistic and antagonistic means...but the link below is as good a place to start and I'm sorry if you've read this and know it... I just don't know where you are in this

Read the Results

Read the Results

www.angus.org

 

[Warren Allison]

Hello and welcome. I have a couple questions to ask you. 1) Where are you located? It will help if we know your climate, elevation and environment. 2) What are you actually trying to accomplish? Do you want big weaned calves that you don't care how much you feed them or what it costs? Do you plan to take replacement heifers from your herd or does that not matter? Don't worry, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 99.9% of the people that go looking for a bull just look at the numbers and think "this will be great" but don't really know what they're actually doing to their herd.

Yep. I wish Angie would set the parameters to where you couldn't create an account without the location filled in.

 

[Peace]

Yep. I wish Angie would set the parameters to where you couldn't create an account without the location filled in.

The reason I bring it up in this case is I live at 4500 feet, so PAP means a lot to me...it might not to many...but I really don't want to buy a bull, bring him home and him have a heart attack on his first mount...talk about a bad way to go...

 

[BayerFooted]

Understand that EPD values are specific to a breed. A birth weight EPD of +1.0 in breed A is not the same as a +1.0 in breed B. Each breed will have a breed average for each of their EPD's. The numbers are published by each breed association. Within a breed, a bull with a BW EPD of +1.0 will on average sire a calf 1 pound lighter than a bull with a BW EPD of +2.0 IF bred to the same cow or equal. EPD's are predictions - not absolutes. And the contribution of the cow is equal to the contribution of the bull. Each breed association will have a chart that shows where a numeric value fits within the breed. In other words, a BW of +6 may correspond to the bottom 10% of the breed (highest birth weights) and a BW of -4 may correspond to the top 10% of the breed (lighter birth weights) with a BW EPD of +1 being breed average. Numbers made up for this illustration.
Then each bull will have an accuracy for each of his EPD's. If his BW accuracy is 17%, that EPD value is not as dependable as the EPD on a bull with an accuracy of 70%. Accuracy increases with data submitted on lots of progeny. Heavily used AI sires will generally have high accuracies due to number of calves.
WW and YW EPD's - the higher the number, the heavier the expected weight from his calves relative to the calves from a bull with lower WW and YW EPD's IF the cows are equal in growth EPD's and the calves are all raised in the same environment and nutrition level.
Milk EPD's - numeric values depend on the breed. The higher the number, the more expected milk in the bull's daughters. High milk requires a higher nutrition level in order to produce the milk and maintain body condition. Lower milk should produce lower growth in calves and help maintain body condition in more challenging environments. Milk EPD's need to fit the environment. Year round lush grass can support a high milk EPD. Desert range requires a lower milk EPD.
BW EPD - higher the number, the more the BW. Calving Ease EPD (CE) may be more useful than BW. Higher CE number indicates less assistance required at birth. Someone said that a cow could easily birth a 200# snake, but could not birth a 30# bowling ball. Point is that calf shape has more effect than calf weight as far as calving problems.
Many a person has made the mistake of chasing extreme EPD values. Like, if a little is good, more must be better. Or, I want a bull that is in the top 5% on all EPD's. Usually extremes in anything are too extreme for most. It may be that a better goal is the top 30-40% of the breed EPD's.
If you keep replacement heifers from a bull, then you need to look at Maternal traits such as Milk and Maternal Calving Ease and Stay. If you are selling all the offspring of a bull, then no reason to be concerned over Milk or MCE. Put emphasis on growth and carcass.
Lots more to selecting cattle than just EPD's - as is stated above.

Each breed association will have EPD educational info. Here is some info on simmental EPD's.

Quick Reference to ASA EPD and $ Indexes

American Simmental Association, Bozeman, MT, Sire summary search, animal database, herdbook Cattle breeding, Cattle Genetics beef, Angus, SimGenetics crossbreeding

simmental.org

Oh wow, thank you very much. There are some points in this I hadn't understood quite like you put it. My herd is predominantly Angus, but I do have (and I know who they are) some sim-angus that we purchased and two purebred Simmental cows.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

The only thing more important than getting a calf next spring is getting a calf early in the calving season.
If you have 210 head you or your mentor did not just get off the boat. Becareful about seasoning your
cattle with EPD sauce. Remember like begets like and too much of anything spoils the broth

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Thank you Tennessee Tuxedo! To expand on #3, with mature cows that are between 1500-1600lbs, a mid 90's BW out of calving ease bulls(yes, I understand that number is generally designated for heifers) should be handleable? It's within 7% of mother's weight.

Easily.

 

[BayerFooted]

The only thing more important than getting a calf next spring is getting a calf early in the calving season.
If you have 210 head you or your mentor did not just get off the boat. Becareful about seasoning your
cattle with EPD sauce. Remember like begets like and too much of anything spoils the broth

Thank you, Lee. I have been snooping on this forum and realize I really don't know what I probably should about cattle when reading threads but you're right, my thumb isn't bright green. In fact it's pretty gross greenish brown, but regardless, my confidence in managing all of this and my background is not anything related to farming or ranching (music/EMS/Law Enforcement). I digress.

You're recommending a KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) approach to this I assume. I don't want to over think the whole thing, an unsuperpower of mine, and I need a little guidance on how to pick herd sires that will get me calves that can respectively walk across the scale and yet any heifer I keep and maintain a respective career as a brood Cow.

 

[BayerFooted]

Yep. I wish Angie would set the parameters to where you couldn't create an account without the location filled in.

My apologies Warren, I should have included that I'm in North Dakota in my initial message.

 

[wbvs58]

Barefooted, sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of all the processes already, well done, you sound like a very intelligent lady that should make a difference to your herd. It will be interesting to see if this shows up in your record keeping as you put more of your mark on the herd. Going by your market for your calves I would think that you would want a reasonable frame size for your calves. Angus cattle/cows are a wonderfull versatile breed in my opinion and you have a lot to select from. Someone posted a link to some 2015 statistics several days ago that listed the breeds and all the average data and Angus were in the top spots for everything. Angus do suffer from the Tall Poppy Syndrome and a lot of people like to talk them down but we don't care, it's good that the cattle get noticed. I do feel that you can have good maternal cows and good growth with Angus cattle. I wouldn't be afraid to let the milk EPD go a bit higher. In Australia our TACE figures (used to be EBV's), I like to use bulls that are greater than 20 for milk which would be equivalent to about 35 in your EPD's, our conditions can be a bit tough, never get it good all the way through summer and my cows hold up very well with great calves weaned. I do get the occaisional poor doing young cow but as long as she goes back in calf holds up better in subsequent lactations but I will usually find it has more to do with her feed efficiency than her milk figure.
Welcome to CT, I look forward to seeing how your herd progresses. We have picked up some interesting new members of late.

Ken

PS, I think you would get on well with TC Ranch, she is a lady that is very thorough with everything she does as well.

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks, @wbvs58! And welcome, @BayerFooted!

How do you currently obtain your bulls? Auction, private treaty, home grown? My commercial herd is also primarily Angus with some Angus/Hereford and a couple Angus/Simm, my bulls are registered Angus. I prefer private treaty and hit the jackpot with my current breeder. He has taken the time to review the EPD's/registrations of my previous & current bulls and will select his bulls that not only fit my operation, but improve my genetics. Docility is paramount to me, as is calving ease for my heifers. I don't want whopper calves, even for my cows, because I expect mama to raise 'em right. As a general rule, the only time I end up with a dink for a weaned calf is if mama is old and just not producing well anymore (buh-bye!) or twins (hate twins!!!!).

As previously mentioned, EPD's are a wonderful tool, but the operative word is "estimated". And absolutely agree that a good eye for both dam & sire is just as important.