Noob to Angus cattle and EPDs

[kentuckyguy]

One thing I really appreciate on angus EPD's is being able to see how many progeny have had data put in to come up with the EPD.

5-6 year old bulls with over 800 registered progeny give you a good idea of what you are going to get.

 

[Peace]

I might want to add that longevity is a strong desire eithy me. My Walt Disney upbringing gets me attached to these ladies and the longer I can keep them, they can breed back on time and raise a decent calf (not a goat) for me the better. Seems there is a snag in the herd where we either get a few good years out of the critter then either she skips settling with a calf, she suddenly loses body score and dies or needs to be culled. I've had that happen too many times I care to count with 4-8 year old cows.

Or we have a handful of rockstars that are 12+ years old (oldest still retained in herd is 15) and still marching on strong. These ladies are of course obvious cows to keep their heifers IF they have them.

Occasionally I get bad feet or bags, they go bye bye.

I'll go back to my original post and ask again what is most important to you? If I'm reading this right it's to get productive cows that raise you a good big calf every year, on time that you can sell or take replacements from. Maybe make a list in order of importance to you and then go on a bull search that fills those things in your order.

The thing I do like to do with the EPDs is read those $ scores they have as they can be a good overview of what a bull has to offer for the overall areas that one is trying to improve and the EPDs that are used in each. $M for maternal traits, $W for weaning and calf traits, $F for feedlot value after weaning, $G for grid value of carcass, $B for Beef value and finally $C for combining all the $ EPDs as a combined score.

I read in another post that your cows are in the 1400 to 1600lb range, or maybe you used that as an example, but if they are I believe your cows are more than big enough. Maybe that's the norm in your area, but to many on here, that's probably an elephant that would eat them out of house and home. You also mentioned culling when things go south on them, and that's a good thing, in my opinion, to move on from. Nobody wants things to go south on their cattle, but when they do it's better to cull and replace than hope something better happens. Hope is not a strategy, ever.

You also mentioned cows up and dying on you? It scared the crap out of me and I hope this is a 1 time thing, or extremely rare...not sure what to think about that as I don't have context. Maybe I read way too much into that statement.

One thing that I've noticed while watching some of these bull sales is there are several bulls, probably about 8, that show up as sires in just about every Angus sale I've checked out. Off the top of my head, Jindra Acclaim, Renown, Resource, Payweight, Hoover Dam and I'm sure I'm missing a couple. While they're great Sires and obvious choices to get sires from, it's a little scary when almost all of the seedstock operations are using them. Is it possible that all of this leads to some type of inbreeding or one of the major Sires being found to be a carrier of something that is awful and ends up in large percentage of the Angus herds. I bring this up as an ex-dairy guy where some 90% of the US holsteins trace back to ABS Chief or SS Elevation and Chief was found to be a carrier of some genetic defect. (below is the link) So maybe it's time to look at bulls that aren't from those main bulls mentioned by all the Sire sales and find the less used Sires and Grandsires that probably cost less and have just as good traits you're looking for.

From Two Bulls, Nine Million Dairy Cows

Just two Y chromosomes exist in a huge population of U.S. Holsteins; researchers want to know what traits have been lost

www.scientificamerican.com

You might also consider adding some High Bread Vinegar (hybred vigor) to your herd. Heterosis is something that I fully believe in. I'm a fan of the F1 Baldys....I'll include a youtube video about it and why Hereford/Angus...but.. so damn ugly they're beautiful and they generally won't cost you much if anything at sale time, provided you're still bringing nice beef shaped calves to sell. Here is the video and why those 2 to me is at the 11:30 mark.


Good luck

Barefooted, sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of all the processes already, well done, you sound like a very intelligent lady that should make a difference to your herd. It will be interesting to see if this shows up in your record keeping as you put more of your mark on the herd. Going by your market for your calves I would think that you would want a reasonable frame size for your calves. Angus cattle/cows are a wonderfull versatile breed in my opinion and you have a lot to select from. Someone posted a link to some 2015 statistics several days ago that listed the breeds and all the average data and Angus were in the top spots for everything. Angus do suffer from the Tall Poppy Syndrome and a lot of people like to talk them down but we don't care, it's good that the cattle get noticed. I do feel that you can have good maternal cows and good growth with Angus cattle. I wouldn't be afraid to let the milk EPD go a bit higher. In Australia our TACE figures (used to be EBV's), I like to use bulls that are greater than 20 for milk which would be equivalent to about 35 in your EPD's, our conditions can be a bit tough, never get it good all the way through summer and my cows hold up very well with great calves weaned. I do get the occaisional poor doing young cow but as long as she goes back in calf holds up better in subsequent lactations but I will usually find it has more to do with her feed efficiency than her milk figure.
Welcome to CT, I look forward to seeing how your herd progresses. We have picked up some interesting new members of late.

Ken

PS, I think you would get on well with TC Ranch, she is a lady that is very thorough with everything she does as well.

This is the link, and Angus is at the top as it's the base breed...I guess...

http://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/phag/files/2018/01/Table-2-MARC-Mulit-breed-Perfomance.png

 

[Peace]

I really like this discussion and hope it continues...

 

[FungusProudKY31]

"I have since put together since 2012 records including the bulls who may have sired any heifer we've kept, and cows productivity on every individual cow. (I've grown to 210 head from 90)"

With that record, never think that you can buy in cattle that will do better than your own replacements"

"I realize that folks opinions are going to be partial to bulls and even the cow family they come from which I think are just as important to look at the bottom as well as the top."

Cattle and cattle associations, especially, are largely politics for many. The world is full of gurus and source herd mindsets ready to take your money.

"1.) When looking at a sire, WW and YW EPDs are best when higher?"

Look at the EPDs on cows and bulls you have that are your best fit, including longevity, marketability of calves, ... Those are the WW and YW EPDs you want."

"2.) Milk numbers around 25 are good, no higher than 30 or lower than 20, right?"

MM is a sham in that it collects both the implied milk production plus all else that is unexplainable for the calf to grow well. MM is like the national debt and keeps going up and up but the results do not show it unless you own a large feed truck. It would be best to have an "I don't know" EPD than to cram it all into the MM. Too much of real milk production will limit breed- back on your mama cows. That is your litmus test: % breed back.

"3.) Birth weight and BW EPD closest to 0 gives best chance to reflect that BW and the higher the point reflects the greater the chance of a calf weighing more at birth and conversely a negative may reflect a lower birth weight?"

Don't get hung up in the latest fads: Low BW, high CED and curve bender genetics. You ship will start taking on water in about 5 years if you get caught up in the blind leading the blind. A few years back the dividing line between heifer bulls and cow bulls was a BW EPD of around +2 or +3. Now folks think that a cow should not even be bred to a + weight bull. It's purely junk talk. The CED deal is a bit better as it likely reflects on the calf's shape at birth. If you go with low BW, high CED and it is real you will create a frail herd. The growth diminishes along with the real low birth weights. If you go with the current fad of curve benders (low BW and higher MW and MH) you will build a herd of freaks that never quit growing and your MW and MH in actual inches and pounds will make your herd inefficient. The curve benders are selected for short gestational periods. From experiences of decades ago when that first got tried, you will have easy calving, sale bulls with eye appeal and retained females with 300 to 400 more pounds of mature weight than you current herd average. They just do not quit growing early enough.

 

[Peace]

One thing I really appreciate on angus EPD's is being able to see how many progeny have had data put in to come up with the EPD.

5-6 year old bulls with over 800 registered progeny give you a good idea of what you are going to get.

Right, except when you go to the bull sale they're selling 1 and 2 year old bulls and they have, generally, exactly 0 progeny to base your selection on. Basically you have to keep in mind you're buying expected results not actual results.

 

[BayerFooted]

Thanks, @wbvs58! And welcome, @BayerFooted!

How do you currently obtain your bulls? Auction, private treaty, home grown? My commercial herd is also primarily Angus with some Angus/Hereford and a couple Angus/Simm, my bulls are registered Angus. I prefer private treaty and hit the jackpot with my current breeder. He has taken the time to review the EPD's/registrations of my previous & current bulls and will select his bulls that not only fit my operation, but improve my genetics. Docility is paramount to me, as is calving ease for my heifers. I don't want whopper calves, even for my cows, because I expect mama to raise 'em right. As a general rule, the only time I end up with a dink for a weaned calf is if mama is old and just not producing well anymore (buh-bye!) or twins (hate twins!!!!).

As previously mentioned, EPD's are a wonderful tool, but the operative word is "estimated". And absolutely agree that a good eye for both dam & sire is just as important.

Thank you for your reply, TC!! The 7 bulls I have were mainly purchased from folks that raise and sell at production sales (auction style). Two were private treaty and one was home raised (he's got an interesting story I may share someday; emergency cesarian). I need to pick up 2-3 more this spring which is greatly why I'm here for an education. Most of these bulls were chosen by me in the past.

I'm with you on docility! Also, I hate messing with heifers and so the CED is something I've started looking for, however, I've noticed some things in my very short time at this. Because we start calving when it's about 20-30 degrees Fahrenheit the calves have to be at least 75 pounds, anything smaller and they get chilled or die. 2018 we had a disaster, the spring never showed up and hubby and I were calving in -40 wind chill with actual temps below zero. The bull that was used on heifers was an anomaly. The bull calves he threw were in range of what his BW EPD said (82#) but the heifer calves we're about 50# and all but one died of hypothermia. We were checking cows every half hour to an hour around the clock the entire month of April. It was a nightmare. Needless to say, the bull was sold. He was by Connealy Courage 25L out of the Rachel cow family.

Twins are also obnoxious, nice if you have a momma that suddenly needs a baby though. Haha!

 

[BayerFooted]

"I have since put together since 2012 records including the bulls who may have sired any heifer we've kept, and cows productivity on every individual cow. (I've grown to 210 head from 90)"

With that record, never think that you can buy in cattle that will do better than your own replacements"

"I realize that folks opinions are going to be partial to bulls and even the cow family they come from which I think are just as important to look at the bottom as well as the top."

Cattle and cattle associations, especially, are largely politics for many. The world is full of gurus and source herd mindsets ready to take your money.

"1.) When looking at a sire, WW and YW EPDs are best when higher?"

Look at the EPDs on cows and bulls you have that are your best fit, including longevity, marketability of calves, ... Those are the WW and YW EPDs you want."

"2.) Milk numbers around 25 are good, no higher than 30 or lower than 20, right?"

MM is a sham in that it collects both the implied milk production plus all else that is unexplainable for the calf to grow well. MM is like the national debt and keeps going up and up but the results do not show it unless you own a large feed truck. It would be best to have an "I don't know" EPD than to cram it all into the MM. Too much of real milk production will limit breed- back on your mama cows. That is your litmus test: % breed back.

"3.) Birth weight and BW EPD closest to 0 gives best chance to reflect that BW and the higher the point reflects the greater the chance of a calf weighing more at birth and conversely a negative may reflect a lower birth weight?"

Don't get hung up in the latest fads: Low BW, high CED and curve bender genetics. You ship will start taking on water in about 5 years if you get caught up in the blind leading the blind. A few years back the dividing line between heifer bulls and cow bulls was a BW EPD of around +2 or +3. Now folks think that a cow should not even be bred to a + weight bull. It's purely junk talk. The CED deal is a bit better as it likely reflects on the calf's shape at birth. If you go with low BW, high CED and it is real you will create a frail herd. The growth diminishes along with the real low birth weights. If you go with the current fad of curve benders (low BW and higher MW and MH) you will build a herd of freaks that never quit growing and your MW and MH in actual inches and pounds will make your herd inefficient. The curve benders are selected for short gestational periods. From experiences of decades ago when that first got tried, you will have easy calving, sale bulls with eye appeal and retained females with 300 to 400 more pounds of mature weight than you current herd average. They just do not quit growing early enough.

Wow, thank you! This is very helpful

One thing my FIL had said that milk past 25 will mean that the cow will have a blown out bag. I'm not sure if there is a relationship there or not as we have had cows in our herd with bottle teats. My gut says it's more of a genetic trait for udder structure than reflection of a milk EPD, Novice curiosity.

 

[76 Bar]

I have since put together since 2012 records including the bulls who may have sired any heifer we've kept, and cows productivity on every individual cow.

Kudos to you! IMO extensive cattle records are a crucial component to the success of a long term production system.
You've received a lot of good advise & food for thought thus far. As to your disappointment for not finding a mentor nearby I suggest you join a local cattlemen's association. You might be pleasantly surprised by how many would be willing to help you.

 

[Dsth]

this may be a question that has been answered in previous post but I did not see it as I read or skimmed through them. Are you planning on natural breeding or considering AI on some? If you are looking to make the most improvement in the shortest amount of time, I would suggest looking into AI breeding your best cows. Doing AI gives you a very lengthy option of some of the best bulls in the breed. You can also select semen that gives you about a 95% chance of getting the sex of the calf you desire out of your best cows. Since you already have a great record keeping system that works well for you, you already have a good head start on building an excellent herd. Doing AI also gives you the option of using AI bulls that have very reliable EPDs versus natural service bulls that are generally younger bulls that can drastically change their EPDs after calves start hitting the ground. Not sure what AI availability is in your area, but most AI studs offer AI training to teach you to breed your own cows/heifers. Don't mean to step on toes of any bull sellers since I know there are very good herds out there selling bulls. Welcome to the CT family and hope we can help you on your journey and also hope you will share your knowledge with the rest of us.

 

[BayerFooted]

I'll go back to my original post and ask again what is most important to you? If I'm reading this right it's to get productive cows that raise you a good big calf every year, on time that you can sell or take replacements from. Maybe make a list in order of importance to you and then go on a bull search that fills those things in your order.

The thing I do like to do with the EPDs is read those $ scores they have as they can be a good overview of what a bull has to offer for the overall areas that one is trying to improve and the EPDs that are used in each. $M for maternal traits, $W for weaning and calf traits, $F for feedlot value after weaning, $G for grid value of carcass, $B for Beef value and finally $C for combining all the $ EPDs as a combined score.

I read in another post that your cows are in the 1400 to 1600lb range, or maybe you used that as an example, but if they are I believe your cows are more than big enough. Maybe that's the norm in your area, but to many on here, that's probably an elephant that would eat them out of house and home. You also mentioned culling when things go south on them, and that's a good thing, in my opinion, to move on from. Nobody wants things to go south on their cattle, but when they do it's better to cull and replace than hope something better happens. Hope is not a strategy, ever.

You also mentioned cows up and dying on you? It scared the crap out of me and I hope this is a 1 time thing, or extremely rare...not sure what to think about that as I don't have context. Maybe I read way too much into that statement.

One thing that I've noticed while watching some of these bull sales is there are several bulls, probably about 8, that show up as sires in just about every Angus sale I've checked out. Off the top of my head, Jindra Acclaim, Renown, Resource, Payweight, Hoover Dam and I'm sure I'm missing a couple. While they're great Sires and obvious choices to get sires from, it's a little scary when almost all of the seedstock operations are using them. Is it possible that all of this leads to some type of inbreeding or one of the major Sires being found to be a carrier of something that is awful and ends up in large percentage of the Angus herds. I bring this up as an ex-dairy guy where some 90% of the US holsteins trace back to ABS Chief or SS Elevation and Chief was found to be a carrier of some genetic defect. (below is the link) So maybe it's time to look at bulls that aren't from those main bulls mentioned by all the Sire sales and find the less used Sires and Grandsires that probably cost less and have just as good traits you're looking for.

From Two Bulls, Nine Million Dairy Cows

Just two Y chromosomes exist in a huge population of U.S. Holsteins; researchers want to know what traits have been lost

www.scientificamerican.com

You might also consider adding some High Bread Vinegar (hybred vigor) to your herd. Heterosis is something that I fully believe in. I'm a fan of the F1 Baldys....I'll include a youtube video about it and why Hereford/Angus...but.. so damn ugly they're beautiful and they generally won't cost you much if anything at sale time, provided you're still bringing nice beef shaped calves to sell. Here is the video and why those 2 to me is at the 11:30 mark.


Good luck


This is the link, and Angus is at the top as it's the base breed...I guess...

http://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/phag/files/2018/01/Table-2-MARC-Mulit-breed-Perfomance.png

You're right, I want to have cows that raise a decent calf every year, breeds back on time and can be productive for years. Those $$$ EPD values are over my head, I've only began to understand BW EPD, Milk, WW and YW ratios... And even then, I may not grasp it well.

The average weight of our cows is probably 1400, but I have some in the 1200 range and others about 1600. The top end of the weight scale were exposed to bulls with BW in the mid 90's. I think I poorly conveyed that. The rest of the herd exposed to bulls 80-85# BW.

Random death (that isn't a cow committing suicide by fatal supine positioning) has occurred. This winter we have lost two coming 5 year olds and a coming 4 year old. They've been dewormed, magnets but lost weight and that's it. Looking at these threes history, everyone of them had a rough start. Two were chilled and hot boxed, one was actually revived in the bathtub (see, I record every dumb stupid detail LOL). Sharp learning curve to understand the importance of immediate colostrum me thinks. However, we have lost other cows this same way that didn't have a rough start. This is probably an issue to bring up on a different forum topic.

Funny you mentioned those 5 bulls. I have 3 of the 5 in the bull pen. I have an own son of Jindra Acclaim, a Hoover Dam grandson (he's been a really good bull for us for 5 years), and a grandson of Basin Payweight 1682 whom we've had for 3 years. Probably a line up that will make some cringe

Thank you for that link, I'm going to bookmark that and certainly use that!

I love black baldies. I have a token hereford cow, and two f1 in the herd. Have some whiteface sim-angus too. Unfortunately, sometimes the buyers at the sales barn will ding you on the calves for having a few "odd balls".

 

[BayerFooted]

this may be a question that has been answered in previous post but I did not see it as I read or skimmed through them. Are you planning on natural breeding or considering AI on some? If you are looking to make the most improvement in the shortest amount of time, I would suggest looking into AI breeding your best cows. Doing AI gives you a very lengthy option of some of the best bulls in the breed. You can also select semen that gives you about a 95% chance of getting the sex of the calf you desire out of your best cows. Since you already have a great record keeping system that works well for you, you already have a good head start on building an excellent herd. Doing AI also gives you the option of using AI bulls that have very reliable EPDs versus natural service bulls that are generally younger bulls that can drastically change their EPDs after calves start hitting the ground. Not sure what AI availability is in your area, but most AI studs offer AI training to teach you to breed your own cows/heifers. Don't mean to step on toes of any bull sellers since I know there are very good herds out there selling bulls. Welcome to the CT family and hope we can help you on your journey and also hope you will share your knowledge with the rest of us.

Very good question, I hadn't addressed this detail. We live cover with bulls in pasture. I don't think we have the facility to AI, well, maybe we do but I don't know split beans from coffee about the process so my ignorance will surely show.

It would be lovely to do that, I would love it but have no idea how complicated it is.

Thank you for welcoming me, I wish I joined sooner

 

[Peace]

Just out of curiosity, if you went to one of the purebred Angus bull sales, what would you expect to spend for a bull? Is $3000 enough, too much or???

 

[BayerFooted]

Just out of curiosity, if you went to one of the purebred Angus bull sales, what would you expect to spend for a bull? Is $3000 enough, too much or???

Where I am it sure seems to be high competition for PB Angus bulls. Average price is going to vary but often the opening bid is $3,000. Sometimes as low as $2500. Seems the bulls I always want are the top sellers in the sale and my wallet cannot touch them.

 

[Nkline]

greetings everyone! I am not only new to this forum, but I'd say I'm really fresh to the scene of the ranching industry. I grew up in a city, married into this and my husband and I have taken over the 100+ year family farm in 2012. I've been given the cows, so with that comes the daunting and overwhelming task of trying to get a grasp on what the heck all those EPDs mean and the lineage of the best bulls for a commercial cow/calf operation. I think I have the jist of it but I do not have anyone to help me really. My husband is a small grains guy (hence why I get the cows) and my FIL just threw a bull out with the cows to get a calf with no intention of getting anything other than a calf the next spring. I started with a herd with NO records.

I have since put together since 2012 records including the bulls who may have sired any heifer we've kept, and cows productivity on every individual cow. (I've grown to 210 head from 90)

I realize that folks opinions are going to be partial to bulls and even the cow family they come from which I think are just as important to look at the bottom as well as the top.

1.) When looking at a sire, WW and YW EPDs are best when higher?

2.) Milk numbers around 25 are good, no higher than 30 or lower than 20, right?

3.) Birth weight and BW EPD closest to 0 gives best chance to reflect that BW and the higher the point reflects the greater the chance of a calf weighing more at birth and conversely a negative may reflect a lower birth weight?

I have tons more questions, but I will try to keep it to this for now as I am naturally long winded.

I am sorry if this is a set of such ignorant questions, I have no one to ask to understand and have learned quickly in my area no one has the time of day to take someone like me under their wing to coach on these things. I'm somehow supposed to just know and understand all of this. Appreciate any help. Thank you

If you chase WW and YW epds you will end up with large cows that eat a lot. I would suggest looking at the DMI epd ( still getting more accurate as it is largely genomic based) you can use it along with the growth epds to add performance with feed efficiency. That being said most of the big WW YW sires are being blindly selected for growth without attention being paid to efficiency, resulting in super high input cattle. You may ask, "what about RADG?" ; it's calculation is inherently flawed. Also, figure out what frame score each bull is that you are going to use, mature frame score is highly heritable, and no one wants an uneven set of cattle. If you are aiming for 1500-1600lb mature weights, about a 6.7 is probably the frame size you're going for.

2. Milk number kind of sucks, it is usually better to ask someone how well a bulls daughters milk, plus you can ask about udders at that point.

3. Positive birthweight heavier calf, on average. It is in pounds so a +3 bulls calves will average 3 lbs heavier than a 0 bulls calves, but the variance in a specific bulls calves weights will often matter more than that, as 3 lbs difference in calf weight isn't much.

 

[Jafruech]

Where I am it sure seems to be high competition for PB Angus bulls. Average price is going to vary but often the opening bid is $3,000. Sometimes as low as $2500. Seems the bulls I always want are the top sellers in the sale and my wallet cannot touch them.

I spent $7k for my last Angus bull and would pay more than that to buy him again. I chose my bulls to fit what I need them to. I'd rather pay 15k for a bull that takes my herd in the direction I want. If you're not retaining replacements it doesn't matter as much. Sounds like you are though. Don't skimp money in the bull department. Reduce your inputs elsewhere.

I will write more tomorrow when I'm not half asleep...but I'll say this for now: I think you are headed in a very wrong direction for your environment, and it doesn't seem like you have a very good understanding of what you need, why, and are quite frankly making things harder on yourself and you're fighting against nature. The fact that your cows are only lasting that long shows that. My 17 year old Angus X cow sounds like she could run circles around your 4 year olds and on a lot less feed with similar weaning weights.

You seem to have a decent understanding of EPDs...and no understanding of your environment. If you were in the southeast you could get away with the kind of cattle and goals you are talking about. Quite frankly I would get rid of every cow you have and get cows that fit your environment and select bulls based off of your goals...

Which brings me to....I hear no defined goals for your herd. I hear no defined goals for how you gan reduce inputs while increasing profitability. You seem to have completely skipped over the earlier post where he mentioned milk production having to fit your environment...which is absolutely correct. A cow with "great" EPDs who can't meet her energy requirements in your environment is one that falls apart in 8 years...sounds like your herd has been taken in the wrong direction since 2012 and should have probably culled most of what you have now.

Cows...first and foremost have to fit the environment...they have to calve unassisted. Their job is to be cows....sounds like many of your cows can't do their jobs and need to be fired. Any cow I have to stay up all night for would be culled no matter how much I like her otherwise. Cows don't get second chances to do their job. I sleep all night and peacefully through calving season with zero losses or helping the cows. I've calved I. Colder temps than you with 65# calves that weaned at 580# and had a lot of vigor...but those were "kids left gate open and bull got in for an hour out side of breeding season" mistakes. I stopped fighting nature when calving and will never regret it.

I'll be more helpful and specific when I have had more sleep.

 

[TCRanch]

Thank you for your reply, TC!! The 7 bulls I have were mainly purchased from folks that raise and sell at production sales (auction style). Two were private treaty and one was home raised (he's got an interesting story I may share someday; emergency cesarian). I need to pick up 2-3 more this spring which is greatly why I'm here for an education. Most of these bulls were chosen by me in the past.

I'm with you on docility! Also, I hate messing with heifers and so the CED is something I've started looking for, however, I've noticed some things in my very short time at this. Because we start calving when it's about 20-30 degrees Fahrenheit the calves have to be at least 75 pounds, anything smaller and they get chilled or die. 2018 we had a disaster, the spring never showed up and hubby and I were calving in -40 wind chill with actual temps below zero. The bull that was used on heifers was an anomaly. The bull calves he threw were in range of what his BW EPD said (82#) but the heifer calves we're about 50# and all but one died of hypothermia. We were checking cows every half hour to an hour around the clock the entire month of April. It was a nightmare. Needless to say, the bull was sold. He was by Connealy Courage 25L out of the Rachel cow family.

Twins are also obnoxious, nice if you have a momma that suddenly needs a baby though. Haha!

The calves from my heifers last year averaged 70-75 lbs and their bull was a CED +11, BW +4, WW +46. You may want to consider having your heifers pelvic measured. I have mine measured at 11 months (instead of "standard" 12) when they get their BANGS. My minimum goal is 150, so they should theoretically be able to have a 73+ lb calf unassisted. As a general rule, the only time I have to pull a calf is mal presentation - or the unfortunate "oops" baby. It happens. Good BCS & nutrition are a must.
The following like is a good explanation of pelvic measurements & dyscotia.

Pelvic Measurements and Calving Difficulty | MU Extension

Although researchers agree that birth weight is the most important measurable trait affecting calving difficulty, there is evidence that the size and shape of the pelvis also affect a heifer’s ability to calve. | Reviewed by Jordan Thomas Assistant Professor, Animal Sciences David J. Patterson...

extension.missouri.edu

 

[Peace]

If we're being honest, how many people do you think chase the CED,WW and YW at the expense of just about everything else. That doesn't make too much sense to me when you're in a cow calf operation. What does make sense to me is to get good maternal traits, obviously that fit your environment, so you're herd is as productive as possible. That would mean on time, unassisted and raising a nice big healthy calf every year on the feeds available. You should be able to find those bulls for that $3k, mostly because everyone else is chasing a dream and not reality.

 

[WFfarm]

Absolutely! Our local vet once teased me that I take too much information for a commercial herd and that I do the work of a registered herd. I have a few cows who once had papers (I know who they are, but do not have their paperwork) and my FIL scoffed at me for recording "every silly detail". I like information, maybe it is moot.

Challenge any cattleman to pick out which cows have papers.

 

[BayerFooted]

The calves from my heifers last year averaged 70-75 lbs and their bull was a CED +11, BW +4, WW +46. You may want to consider having your heifers pelvic measured. I have mine measured at 11 months (instead of "standard" 12) when they get their BANGS. My minimum goal is 150, so they should theoretically be able to have a 73+ lb calf unassisted. As a general rule, the only time I have to pull a calf is mal presentation - or the unfortunate "oops" baby. It happens. Good BCS & nutrition are a must.
The following like is a good explanation of pelvic measurements & dyscotia.

Pelvic Measurements and Calving Difficulty | MU Extension

Although researchers agree that birth weight is the most important measurable trait affecting calving difficulty, there is evidence that the size and shape of the pelvis also affect a heifer’s ability to calve. | Reviewed by Jordan Thomas Assistant Professor, Animal Sciences David J. Patterson...

extension.missouri.edu

I have discussed doing this. We have only had them checked breedable at BANGs time.

The birth weight for heifers is something I certainly have experienced some oddities. Besides the story I told earlier of our "Russian Roulette" bull that threw 80pound bull calves with heifer calves weighing 30 pounds lighter when we took over the heifer bull we inherited was mid 70's BW but we pulled easily 3/4 of them. I have used an 82 BW bull (different than the roulette bull) and didn't touch a single one. Someone said previously "a cow can birth a 200 pound snake but cannot push out a 30 pound bowling ball."

This year I do need to select a new heifer bull, along with one or two more herd bulls.

To reiterate, this is why I'm here to better understand what EPDs I really should be looking for and how to understand them.

TC, I really appreciate the insight and links you have offered.

 

[BayerFooted]

If we're being honest, how many people do you think chase the CED,WW and YW at the expense of just about everything else. That doesn't make too much sense to me when you're in a cow calf operation. What does make sense to me is to get good maternal traits, obviously that fit your environment, so you're herd is as productive as possible. That would mean on time, unassisted and raising a nice big healthy calf every year on the feeds available. You should be able to find those bulls for that $3k, mostly because everyone else is chasing a dream and not reality.

Those $3-4k bulls are the ones I get. They're lower milk numbers, and have unbraggable YW and WW ratios. Have been wondering if I should have been looking to increase those numbers. I have bull records of everything I have purchased if anyone is curious. Probably moot.

I've been to several cattleman's seminars put on by our local vet, or the university and I always seem to end up more confused because everyone seems to explain something a little different. Especially when trying to discern those pesky EPD numbers and I'm sort of seeing that here.

To simplify what I have stated before:

Is it possible to maintain maternal traits (and specifically what ones should I be emphasizing on) and bulking up the calves I wean and background without becoming terminal?

I used to use an analogy with cows that the ones that seem to grow fast like a pine tree seem to be the ones that Peter out and nose dive the fastest, and the cows that grow slow like an oak tree seem to last better but takes them longer to start bringing a top end calf to the scale. I'm not sure if I'm correct on that thinking.

Maybe I'm over thinking all of this too much.