Lot 1 GAR Sale

[Ebenezer]

I am not knocking the GAR bull for his purpose. His purpose is for the terminal market. We need those type. I saw a lot of these bulls in later years in Louisiana breeding ear cattle. The breeders had tried the gamete of breeds, performance tested and such. The GAR and GAR derivative bulls, in that environment were stick figure type bulls that you would never purchase on looks. But the calves were desired by buyers. Not a knock but just what was - disposition was an issue on many.

I have not kept up with Coleman but SAV seems to be a selection for cattle that eat concentrates and gain a lot of weight. What I need in the pastures are moderate, highly fertile females that are trouble free and eat grass. So I have no interest in record setting stuff. And when I say grass, I mean grass. Another no hay winter for the cows in the book. Hay is used as a tool to wean calves but not to sustain the cow herd. All about the bottom line.

 

[angus9259]

I am not knocking the GAR bull for his purpose. His purpose is for the terminal market. We need those type. I saw a lot of these bulls in later years in Louisiana breeding ear cattle. The breeders had tried the gamete of breeds, performance tested and such. The GAR and GAR derivative bulls, in that environment were stick figure type bulls that you would never purchase on looks. But the calves were desired by buyers. Not a knock but just what was - disposition was an issue on many.

I have not kept up with Coleman but SAV seems to be a selection for cattle that eat concentrates and gain a lot of weight. What I need in the pastures are moderate, highly fertile females that are trouble free and eat grass. So I have no interest in record setting stuff. And when I say grass, I mean grass. Another no hay winter for the cows in the book. Hay is used as a tool to wean calves but not to sustain the cow herd. All about the bottom line.

Problem here is that the one trait that GAR stinks at is $EN which is the one trait Coleman excels at. So if this is the case, numerically, you need to be with Coleman. So, based on the EPDs, your assertion that Coleman is producing cattle to survive on concentrates is not accurate. That, according to EPDs, is what GAR cattle are bred for.

 

[Ebenezer]

Problem here is that the one trait that GAR stinks at is $EN which is the one trait Coleman excels at. So if this is the case, numerically, you need to be with Coleman. So, based on the EPDs, your assertion that Coleman is producing cattle to survive on concentrates is not accurate. That, according to EPDs, is what GAR cattle are bred for.

Not what I said. I said that I have not kept up with Coleman. Just a name to me. SAV is an image of a fleet of feed trucks to me.

 

[greybeard]

The consumer wants a product that makes them feel good - taste, tenderness, size of cut, consistency, appearance of the retail product, even labeling and presentation of packaging.

And more often than not, costs that are closer to chicken and pork.

 

[angus9259]

Not what I said. I said that I have not kept up with Coleman. Just a name to me. SAV is an image of a fleet of feed trucks to me.

So a skinny lot 1 bull with a $EN in the bottom 40% doesn't create an image of a fleet of feed trucks?

 

[wbvs58]

I have kept a few cows by GAR Prophet and I really like them, they can be a little harder doing after their 1st calf but are very fertile and go back in calf easily and raise a good calf. I have had success in putting them back to a SAV bull. My first Ashlands will calve in a couple of months at 2 yrs of age, they have grown well and were easy to get in calf so we will see how they go. Ashland's EBV's suggest he is only a moderate milker so we will see what they do. From his numbers his feet seem to be an issue however I have not noticed problems with his progeny as yet but am watching closely.

Ken

 

[Ebenezer]

So a skinny lot 1 bull with a $EN in the bottom 40% doesn't create an image of a fleet of feed trucks?

Just saw the picture and never worried about the numbers. I do not keep up with a lot of the "leaders". If they send a catalog I will look and wonder. But with fescue and a grazing system, I don't look for cattle from the 4 corners of the universe to worry about. It takes a different cow to deal with fescue and heat.

 

[Farm Family]

I have kept a few cows by GAR Prophet and I really like them, they can be a little harder doing after their 1st calf but are very fertile and go back in calf easily and raise a good calf. I have had success in putting them back to a SAV bull. My first Ashlands will calve in a couple of months at 2 yrs of age, they have grown well and were easy to get in calf so we will see how they go. Ashland's EBV's suggest he is only a moderate milker so we will see what they do. From his numbers his feet seem to be an issue however I have not noticed problems with his progeny as yet but am watching closely.

Ken

Good to know those feet numbers have always made me reconsider Ashland. You will have to keep me posted on what you think as time goes on.

 

[Peace]

I have kept a few cows by GAR Prophet and I really like them, they can be a little harder doing after their 1st calf but are very fertile and go back in calf easily and raise a good calf. I have had success in putting them back to a SAV bull. My first Ashlands will calve in a couple of months at 2 yrs of age, they have grown well and were easy to get in calf so we will see how they go. Ashland's EBV's suggest he is only a moderate milker so we will see what they do. From his numbers his feet seem to be an issue however I have not noticed problems with his progeny as yet but am watching closely.

Ken

I know you don't need info from me, just pointing out that in that sale were 179 GAR Home Town bull. calves. ..that was almost 1/2 of them. Not sure what that means...but...it's on page 10 here

https://latv-media.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/uploads/auctions/2616/assets/Gardiner_Angus_Ranch-SB-S23.pdf

 

[GoWyo]

I know you don't need info from me, just pointing out that in that sale were 179 GAR Home Town bull. calves. ..that was almost 1/2 of them. Not sure what that means...but...it's on page 10 here

https://latv-media.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/uploads/auctions/2616/assets/Gardiner_Angus_Ranch-SB-S23.pdf

I bought a cow carrying a Hometown calf a couple years ago. The calf grew good, but was slab sided.a.d a wreck on feet by the time he was a yearling. I wound up just pounding him out and wishing I had cut him as a calf. Could have just been his dam. She came from 60 miles a way in Nebraska but couldn't keep up here. She left right behind him after calving a month late with her second calf.

 

[wbvs58]

I know you don't need info from me, just pointing out that in that sale were 179 GAR Home Town bull. calves. ..that was almost 1/2 of them. Not sure what that means...but...it's on page 10 here

https://latv-media.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/uploads/auctions/2616/assets/Gardiner_Angus_Ranch-SB-S23.pdf

I'm not sure what your message is there Peace, other than Hometown is by Ashland or that Gardiners have a high opinion of Hometown or both.

Ken

 

[Peace]

I'm not sure what your message is there Peace, other than Hometown is by Ashland or that Gardiners have a high opinion of Hometown or both.

Ken

Pretty much nothing other than they're really pounding out the calves by Hometown. So I'm guessing their opinion of him is very high and from what I noticed, they draw lots of money for those calves.

 

[elkwc]

I'm late to the game but will add my 2 cents. I knew the GAR cattle for over 30 years. The cattle today aren't what Henry and his sister had then. Back then they were what most commercial cattle men and women wanted. Deep, soggy, efficient, good feet and legs, easy fleshing cows. Since the boys took over they have changed drastically. The town I lived in west of them 100 miles was on a main highway from the OK Panhandle and NM. On the morning of their sale it would be a steady stream of trucks and trailers headed to their sale. When I left 5 years ago you might see 3-5. As they moved towards carcass and low BW others issues came in. Bad feet and legs, docility, ect. They became tied to the big 4 packers and moved away from the needs of the commercial breeder. Then Mark's testimony in Washington finished my interest and that of many breeders I know in their cattle. I know of vets that stayed busy trimming feet in their genetics.
About 3-4 years ago I bought 2 registered cows bred to a top ET son of Sunrise. Liked the cows so bought them. Got one bull calf and one heifer calf. The heifer is an average cow at best. Too refined for me. Used the bull as a heifer bull. Never pulled a calf. Got tired of looking at him and the low quality and lack of growth of his calves. Sold him last week. I know those who have fed their genetics. They say the cost of gain is higher on them. I know what we had and those I've seen is they wean lighter. They have less growth. I know breeders who feed efficiency test all their bulls. They have sampled GAR genetics. They don't top the tests I've seen for growth or efficiency.
We have never used any Coleman genetics so can't comment on them. We are trying some SAV genetics. So far they seem to do well in our low input system. Easy fleshing, efficient cattle with growth. Our issue is finding enough frame. In our rough terrain belly staggers don't work. We want them deep but with enough air they can maneuver around and over boulders. The Hoover Dams have been our most consistent bloodline that produces growth and also sound maternal females. We AIed on a small scale the last few years trying to find 1-2 new bloodlines that will work for us. So far satisfied with the Growth Funds. We bought a son that was 2nd high indexing bull on test. His first calves look great. He is out of a 12 y/o Bismarck daughter. In 22 we AIed too 5-6 new sires in a limited basis. We have a real good Brown's Double Decker bull calf. Finding what works best for a breeder in his environment and market never ends. In closing will say the GAR bred commercial calves I've seen bring less and have less growth. I'm sure there are exceptions. What I've seen and the 2 we had looked like Black Wagyu's.

 

[BFE]

I'm late to the game but will add my 2 cents. I knew the GAR cattle for over 30 years. The cattle today aren't what Henry and his sister had then. Back then they were what most commercial cattle men and women wanted. Deep, soggy, efficient, good feet and legs, easy fleshing cows. Since the boys took over they have changed drastically. The town I lived in west of them 100 miles was on a main highway from the OK Panhandle and NM. On the morning of their sale it would be a steady stream of trucks and trailers headed to their sale. When I left 5 years ago you might see 3-5. As they moved towards carcass and low BW others issues came in. Bad feet and legs, docility, ect. They became tied to the big 4 packers and moved away from the needs of the commercial breeder. Then Mark's testimony in Washington finished my interest and that of many breeders I know in their cattle. I know of vets that stayed busy trimming feet in their genetics.
About 3-4 years ago I bought 2 registered cows bred to a top ET son of Sunrise. Liked the cows so bought them. Got one bull calf and one heifer calf. The heifer is an average cow at best. Too refined for me. Used the bull as a heifer bull. Never pulled a calf. Got tired of looking at him and the low quality and lack of growth of his calves. Sold him last week. I know those who have fed their genetics. They say the cost of gain is higher on them. I know what we had and those I've seen is they wean lighter. They have less growth. I know breeders who feed efficiency test all their bulls. They have sampled GAR genetics. They don't top the tests I've seen for growth or efficiency.
We have never used any Coleman genetics so can't comment on them. We are trying some SAV genetics. So far they seem to do well in our low input system. Easy fleshing, efficient cattle with growth. Our issue is finding enough frame. In our rough terrain belly staggers don't work. We want them deep but with enough air they can maneuver around and over boulders. The Hoover Dams have been our most consistent bloodline that produces growth and also sound maternal females. We AIed on a small scale the last few years trying to find 1-2 new bloodlines that will work for us. So far satisfied with the Growth Funds. We bought a son that was 2nd high indexing bull on test. His first calves look great. He is out of a 12 y/o Bismarck daughter. In 22 we AIed to 5-6 new sires in a limited basis. We have a real good Brown's Double Decker bull calf. Finding what works best for a breeder in his environment and market never ends. In closing will say the GAR bred commercial calves I've seen bring less and have less growth. I'm sure there are exceptions. What I've seen and the 2 we had looked like Black Wagyu's.

Thank you for this well thought out and informative post. Posts like this help all of to make good informed decisions. We need more input like this across the boards.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Gardiners are focused on breeding carcass on the rail. To accomplish that goal, compromises have to be made. Productive life doesn't matter because they churn generations so quickly to always have the best carcass cattle. By the time a first calf heifer has a calf, she is already outdated in their breeding program.
It is important to remember that a calf only has half of his sires and dams DNA. Combine that with having a new generation every two years and pretty soon the ability for those genetics to adapt is gone. I question after so many generations of rapid genetic turnover, how different one GAR animal is different than another.

 

[clovlanfarms]

this is exactly my point. according to the numbers, this bull should be for the rail AND scale compared to almost anything produced at SAV or Coleman. And maybe it is. According to the numbers, there's almost no reason anyone would use SAV or Coleman (or others) except for looks. And maybe that's the case.

i have SAV cows found out if u want fast growing calves u have to use SAV top and bottom they do not cross as well on other cow family to get 966 adv 205 and 1450 at 365 u have tto use both top and bottom in my eyes gar cattle cant walk.

 

[jscunn]

nothing is perfect, not gar, sav, etc.
personally never raised any sav or coleman not enough marbling in our predominately freezer beef operation.

have played with some single cross gar stuff(not gar on both sides of the pedigree but one side only). havent noticed any feet trouble or lack of growth. i certainly dont have the experience of elkwc, but no train wrecks yet. i think they can offer sone good in a deal like mine. i doubt i will ever use them very heavy however.

about the lot 1 bull. look at his stats in the catalog, first thing that jumps out to me is low fat on ultrasounds compared to other programs, also low yw (actual). looks to me like there isnt a whole lot of feed going into those bulls. they would look a ton better with more feed. of course their feet might not be able to take that test.. wouldnt surprise me..

 

[gcreekrch]

Not for me

 

[clovlanfarms]

I am not knocking the GAR bull for his purpose. His purpose is for the terminal market. We need those type. I saw a lot of these bulls in later years in Louisiana breeding ear cattle. The breeders had tried the gamete of breeds, performance tested and such. The GAR and GAR derivative bulls, in that environment were stick figure type bulls that you would never purchase on looks. But the calves were desired by buyers. Not a knock but just what was - disposition was an issue on many.

I have not kept up with Coleman but SAV seems to be a selection for cattle that eat concentrates and gain a lot of weight. What I need in the pastures are moderate, highly fertile females that are trouble free and eat grass. So I have no interest in record setting stuff. And when I say grass, I mean grass. Another no hay winter for the cows in the book. Hay is used as a tool to wean calves but not to sustain the cow herd. All about the bottomY

 

[clovlanfarms]

Your leaving a lot of money in the pasture like that your selling 500 -600 hundred lbs. and then the buyer takes them and runs them to 8 and 9 hundred and makes money off them .; ur throwing money away.