kenny thomas
Well-known member
Pretty darn good background.
How do you call the cows
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Bob Kinford
Well-known member
I'll admit that occasionally I've called cattle names which would get you thrown out of church
It is evident that very few of the people commenting actually looked at your website, read the blogs, or watched the videos.
Bob Kinford
Well-known member
Before you think i'm being rude, many (if not most) of us have had a friend, family member or know someone who had a person close to commit suicide. Most of the time no one had a clue to the fact that the person was under enough stress to kill themselves. If we can't tell when a human we know and care about is stressed out enough to kill themselves, how can we honestly tell if our cows are stressed or not?
Part of my journey has been studying stress in cows. Its common belief that cows aren't stressed when we call them to feed. Just because they come in, we think they aren't stressed. I've had clients take my advice to put out the feed in three to five lines, a pickup with apart, then take the cattle to the feed. The amount of stress relieved on the cattle doing this adds an average of a half a pound a day to their gain. Nearly everyone is handling their cattle in ways which is costing them money in the form of extra shrink they aren't aware of. I've measured the shrink of leaving cattle in a pen (with water) then weighed them again four days later when they were shipped to discover they had only gained back half of the extra shrink.
Travlr
Well-known member
Whew boy... That just impresses me so much. I've never been so smart that I can't take a lesson from the dimmest bulb in any room, but now I think I may have met the one guy that could give me a sunburn just by basking in his brilliance.
Makes me wonder why you've never caught on to the brilliance involved in calling cows though. I mean... it's almost like in your many decades of cowmanship you might have just done the same year's experiences over and over and over so that you really only have a single year of cowboying... just done 30 times.
I mean... otherwise you would have experienced the brightness in calling cattle instead of chasing them around on your pony.
I don't t
I've got you by 2 years, I've seen a lot of cattle and handled a lot as well, started about the same age. Probably haven't worked as many as you but a pretty fair amount.
With that being said, there is a difference in a feedlot and a family ranch.
There's a lot of ways to handle cattle as well.
And whatever it takes to get it done safely for the rancher, that's easy on the cattle and keeps them quiet and done in a reasonable amount of time is good cattle handling even though everyone may not see it that way
I don't think anyone on here disparaged you, nor did they disagree with your ways or disbelieve in your experience. They didn't agree with your statement disparaging them. There's a difference in the 2.
I've got you by 2 years, I've seen a lot of cattle and handled a lot as well, started about the same age. Probably haven't worked as many as you but a pretty fair amount.
With that being said, there is a difference in a feedlot and a family ranch.
There's a lot of ways to handle cattle as well.
And whatever it takes to get it done safely for the rancher, that's easy on the cattle and keeps them quiet and done in a reasonable amount of time is good cattle handling even though everyone may not see it that way
Well, I could drop some names too but no need, my neighbors know what I can accomplish and they are all that count.
A good stockman should be able to handle a herd of 1 or hundreds on a quad, horseback or given time, on foot.
Have you ever owned you own operation Bob? Not gone broke or bankrupt?
wbvs58
Well-known member
My dry paddock would be a challenge for any one on horseback, thick scrub that is difficult to walk through, rocky outcrops, gullies and creeks that can be bogs. Only two ways, calling them or a good team of dogs that know the country there well.
Mine are not pets I don't think I have one that I could put my hands on but they are quiet and acustomned to me as they get to run through the yards a lot being synchronised and AI. I curse them and often wish that they were not so used to me when working them and move away from me a bit easier and go through the yards a bit easier.
Ken
Mine are not pets I don't think I have one that I could put my hands on but they are quiet and acustomned to me as they get to run through the yards a lot being synchronised and AI. I curse them and often wish that they were not so used to me when working them and move away from me a bit easier and go through the yards a bit easier.
Ken
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Well, Bob, you came on here like gang busters. We welcome you to the boards. Always nice to have new, fresh thoughts.
One thing you need to remember, there is a vast difference between posters on here. Some with probably more expertise on certain aspects of the beef industry than you, and a lot with very little expertise and are learning. Lets not chase away anyone.
We all live in different LOCATIONS and ENVIRONMENTS. Lots of ways to handle, raise, feed, calve, and care for lots of different kinds of cattle.
I am a 76 year "old lady" been raising Simmental for over 50 years, living in Upstate NY with 50 momma cows (which BTW is a LARGE beef operation in NY)
We have recently acquired a new member @Mark Reynolds who is an expert on grazing/grasses and he has GREAT knowledge and has been a polite teacher - which we all greatly appreciate.
We have old members on here that are quite rude. We can learn to ignore them and sometimes learn from them.
I started a thread in "Everything Else Board", "How did you get into the cattle business?"
You might visit that thread and read about some of us and then post your story.
Thanks
One thing you need to remember, there is a vast difference between posters on here. Some with probably more expertise on certain aspects of the beef industry than you, and a lot with very little expertise and are learning. Lets not chase away anyone.
We all live in different LOCATIONS and ENVIRONMENTS. Lots of ways to handle, raise, feed, calve, and care for lots of different kinds of cattle.
I am a 76 year "old lady" been raising Simmental for over 50 years, living in Upstate NY with 50 momma cows (which BTW is a LARGE beef operation in NY)
We have recently acquired a new member @Mark Reynolds who is an expert on grazing/grasses and he has GREAT knowledge and has been a polite teacher - which we all greatly appreciate.
We have old members on here that are quite rude. We can learn to ignore them and sometimes learn from them.
I started a thread in "Everything Else Board", "How did you get into the cattle business?"
You might visit that thread and read about some of us and then post your story.
Thanks
Silver
Well-known member
If you are looking to improve your stockmanship I'm sure most of us on here would be willing to help you out if you just ask some questions.Calling cows to feed, or using feed to gentle cattle is a poor substitute for good stockmanship. Having cattle that eat out of your hand makes for cool pictures, but in reality you have created an animal with no respect for you. Improve your stockmanship and it makes things flow smoother and actually adds money to your bottom line that you don't realize you're currently throwing away.
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Regenerate pastures utilizing natural herd and migratory instincts of cattle.rather than fences and daily moves. Grazing schools and consulting available to help manage infrastructure costs and development. Work smarter, not harder!migratorygrazing.com
Glad you started that thread, Jeanne. One of my favorite current ones. @Bob Kinford joined the forums in 2005. After 18 years he probably knows about the rude ones.
Travlr
Well-known member
@Bob Kinford
I've been thinking about my reply to your reply to me, (which I found pretty condescending), and although I don't believe I owe you an apology I do think it was a poor way to generate understanding on my part. So to that end, let me give you a more polite explanation of why your long and varied experience and methods may not fully encompass the experiences of several of the people on this forum.
So you are 69 and began working livestock at 5, and I'm 70 and began at 3. I'm not inclined to name-drop like you did, but I'll say that my own list is less famous but probably more financially successful than those you listed. But really, it isn't the people you know, but what you've learned, isn't it? And how you apply what you've learned?
So I got a little crusty with you. Sarcasm can be hurtful, but only if you allow it. You could also read it as humor, but few people are inclined to do that on the faceless internet like they would do over a beer.
Look, to the point, calling cattle doesn't create pets. Some people that call their cattle DO make their animals into pets and I am myself suspicious of what that does in the relationship I want with my animals. I didn't make pets... but I did call my cows. I found it much more efficient than saddling a horse (or keeping a horse) or putting gas in a machine.
Many of the people here feed their animals treats to the point that it becomes an expense. In terms of good ranch management and business success I see it as questionable just like any other unnecessary expense, but if it's their thing then all I can do is give them another point of view and that's it. I never fed my stock amounts of cubes or other supplements to call them in, or when I did call them in I never fed enough for it to be considered an expense. All anyone needs to do is train the leaders in the herd to come and they will lead the rest wherever you want them. A single coffee can full of sweet grain, only used enough to train that lead cow, will lead a thousand animals from one pasture into another or into a corral.
Back in the days of trail drives the big cattle companies would often have a lead steer that they would return to the ranch with after selling the herd. That steer was called a "Judas" by many, and it might have made several trips to the railheads before it didn't make a return trip.
The point being that your way is common to large ranches and people that don't know how many cattle they have, much less check on them every day. If you are turning out a thousand or more cows on a BLM or forest service lease every year you probably need and can afford the horses (or even helicopters) to round them up, and once you own them it's easy to use them in working the cattle. But small places with only a few hundred cows or less often have ways to work their cattle that makes things easier for a single person. And the big ranches really don't need to think they know it all just because they are bigger. Certainly they do know things smaller operators don't, and small operators are inclined to listen.
I can call a thousand cows in once the leaders are accustomed to coming to a can of grain... even if I don't have any grain. It's not a trick, or anything fancy. It's just good stockmanship.
I've been thinking about my reply to your reply to me, (which I found pretty condescending), and although I don't believe I owe you an apology I do think it was a poor way to generate understanding on my part. So to that end, let me give you a more polite explanation of why your long and varied experience and methods may not fully encompass the experiences of several of the people on this forum.
So you are 69 and began working livestock at 5, and I'm 70 and began at 3. I'm not inclined to name-drop like you did, but I'll say that my own list is less famous but probably more financially successful than those you listed. But really, it isn't the people you know, but what you've learned, isn't it? And how you apply what you've learned?
So I got a little crusty with you. Sarcasm can be hurtful, but only if you allow it. You could also read it as humor, but few people are inclined to do that on the faceless internet like they would do over a beer.
Look, to the point, calling cattle doesn't create pets. Some people that call their cattle DO make their animals into pets and I am myself suspicious of what that does in the relationship I want with my animals. I didn't make pets... but I did call my cows. I found it much more efficient than saddling a horse (or keeping a horse) or putting gas in a machine.
Many of the people here feed their animals treats to the point that it becomes an expense. In terms of good ranch management and business success I see it as questionable just like any other unnecessary expense, but if it's their thing then all I can do is give them another point of view and that's it. I never fed my stock amounts of cubes or other supplements to call them in, or when I did call them in I never fed enough for it to be considered an expense. All anyone needs to do is train the leaders in the herd to come and they will lead the rest wherever you want them. A single coffee can full of sweet grain, only used enough to train that lead cow, will lead a thousand animals from one pasture into another or into a corral.
Back in the days of trail drives the big cattle companies would often have a lead steer that they would return to the ranch with after selling the herd. That steer was called a "Judas" by many, and it might have made several trips to the railheads before it didn't make a return trip.
The point being that your way is common to large ranches and people that don't know how many cattle they have, much less check on them every day. If you are turning out a thousand or more cows on a BLM or forest service lease every year you probably need and can afford the horses (or even helicopters) to round them up, and once you own them it's easy to use them in working the cattle. But small places with only a few hundred cows or less often have ways to work their cattle that makes things easier for a single person. And the big ranches really don't need to think they know it all just because they are bigger. Certainly they do know things smaller operators don't, and small operators are inclined to listen.
I can call a thousand cows in once the leaders are accustomed to coming to a can of grain... even if I don't have any grain. It's not a trick, or anything fancy. It's just good stockmanship.
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simme
Old Dumb Guy
A lot of very capable experienced people here that have spent many years or even a lifetime perfecting their methods and skills working and raising cattle based on their situations, environment, tools and resources available to them and personal preferences that they have perfected.
I enjoy the variety of methods and locations posted here. There is a lot of diversity and things that you might try on your operation. But some do seem to believe that their way/experience is the only way and seem to get their feelings hurt if anyone operates differently. Plenty of need and room for diversity in this world. Just remember that some of the knowledge here might still have regional limits. I suspect that it is a lot more difficult to be a universal expert than a local expert. No need to convert everyone to your methods, just share as information. Some items can be judged "right" and "wrong", but some are just "different".
"Caveat emptor" is a Latin term that means "let the buyer beware." That probably holds true for buying cattle or following advice from others. Take information for what it might be worth to you, but no reason to attack a person's methods simply because you do it another way.
Before anyone responds "I was not attacking anyone", I never said you were.
My story - I was trail driving thousands of cattle when I was 2 years old. But did not get any pictures - battery dead and off the grid most of the trail. If you trust me on that, please don't vote in the next election.
I enjoy the variety of methods and locations posted here. There is a lot of diversity and things that you might try on your operation. But some do seem to believe that their way/experience is the only way and seem to get their feelings hurt if anyone operates differently. Plenty of need and room for diversity in this world. Just remember that some of the knowledge here might still have regional limits. I suspect that it is a lot more difficult to be a universal expert than a local expert. No need to convert everyone to your methods, just share as information. Some items can be judged "right" and "wrong", but some are just "different".
"Caveat emptor" is a Latin term that means "let the buyer beware." That probably holds true for buying cattle or following advice from others. Take information for what it might be worth to you, but no reason to attack a person's methods simply because you do it another way.
Before anyone responds "I was not attacking anyone", I never said you were.
My story - I was trail driving thousands of cattle when I was 2 years old. But did not get any pictures - battery dead and off the grid most of the trail. If you trust me on that, please don't vote in the next election.
Bob Kinford
Well-known member
I don't have much brilliance, just a checkered past. What was totally missed in translation is how much money you are throwing away using "good stockmanship" in calling cattle. I can have 1,000 head of cattle (any classification) acting as a herd for months. As soon as you pull out with a feed wagon for them to crowd around, they scatter around the pasture like marbles from the stress of competing for food. By comparing methods I've discovered that calling them to feed, verses placing the feed out in several lines a pickup's width apart adds a half pound a day to your adg, in addition to nearly doubling heifer conception rates. Oh, and you don't have to have a horse, you can do it on foot
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Bob, so if I can call my cow and heifers by rattling a feed bucket occasionally and they bred back 100% the last few years, can you your methods double my conception rate? Can they now calve twice a year with your method? Haha
Travlr
Well-known member
Well again... I would use a single fifty pound bag of feed to train my cows and it would last two or three months. And once trained I could call them in without any grain at all if I needed to.
I'm cheap, but if a single bag of grain is too expensive to use as a tool to get your cattle to come in for them to be worked then you must be even more tight with a dollar than I am.
And I don't see how that all translates to adg since we aren't really talking about feeding them other than as a tool for training as part of our handling management.
Bob Kinford
Well-known member
Glad you started that thread, Jeanne. One of my favorite current ones. @Bob Kinford joined the forums in 2005. After 18 years he probably knows about the rude ones.
I've been off and on. I don't usually throw out names, but at least it gives people an idea of my background. You'd be amazed at how many times I've been asked if I ever worked cattle on some of these forums.Glad you started that thread, Jeanne. One of my favorite current ones. @Bob Kinford joined the forums in 2005. After 18 years he probably knows about the rude ones.
As I stated, I've worked in every conceivable kind of geography and climate other than swamps, as well as more breeds than most. If I have learned ONE thing, its that cattle are cattle. The only real difference in stockmanship between working gentle cattle on ten acres to feral cattle in a 10,000 acre pasture is the area of influence and speed of reaction. Everything else is the same.
I've led this life because I love horses and cattle. Given the choice between being on a crew running 3,000 head or taking a salary cut to be running 1-2,000 head alone, I've always taken the latter, even if it was for half the money. Only reason I'm on here is the possibility of helping a few people.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Bob --- you still don't get it - you are not listening. We are not in a situation that NEEDS or WANTS your way of making them a HERD. My cattle move just fine from field to field as A HERD.
I read some of your site - we are not training cattle to run on thousands of acres. My herd has great herd instincts. No improvement needed. Thank you.
Maybe that's why I don't recognize your name. A one week wonder??? Let's not let this go there. We want your input. You just have to back off and realize there may only be 1 person on here with the acreage you deal with.
Bob Kinford
Well-known member
Its all context. How many heifers, hand raised all of their life, is a big difference from 500 heifers on 30,000 acres of desert. Jumping from 0.75 pounds a day and a 43% conception rate in 120 days to 1.25 pounds a day and a 84% conception rate in 60 days is a big jump.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
That is very impressive - but, again, NONE of us have 500 heifers on 30,000 acres of desert. It is extremely logical if you improve their gain from 0.75# to 1.25#/day, you are going to increase conception rate - no matter what method you used to achieve that gain - or what method you use to CALL/feed the heifers.
@chevytaHOE5674 point is that he "calls" his cattle and gets perfect conception rates. How does that relate to the context of your comment?
@chevytaHOE5674 point is that he "calls" his cattle and gets perfect conception rates. How does that relate to the context of your comment?
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