How do you call the cows

[TCRanch]

Just now getting caught up on this thread. It's been educational, enlightening, and entertaining.

Bob, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the US, the average family-owned cattle operation is 50 head or less. And 97% of all US operations are family owned. You'd lose your shyt if you came to my ranch. But is how I manage my cattle wrong? It's all subjective. And I have a pretty good thing going on with my operation.

 

[1982vett]

Just now getting caught up on this thread. It's been educational, enlightening, and entertaining.

Bob, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the US, the average family-owned cattle operation is 50 head or less. And 97% of all US operations are family owned. You'd lose your shyt if you came to my ranch. But is how I manage my cattle wrong? It's all subjective. And I have a pretty good thing going on with my operation.

Same here....but it is kinda tuff to follow with seeing only half the conversation.

 

[Ky hills]

The whole concept of calling cattle brings about a true life story of mine.
My parents worked public jobs and didn't run cows and calves they bought in 75-100 feeder steers at around 400 pounds and kept them to about 700 pounds. Most of these calves were bought a few a time at stockyards around the area. In those days those calves were all unweaned, unvaccinated, until they brought them in.
When turned out they scattered all over the place literally. The way my father did things was to drive them up to the barn to feed them. As a young boy around 7-8 years old I was dropped off at the farthest calves to bunch them up and drive them to the barn sometimes nearly a mile away on foot. I learned a lot about driving and heading cattle. My mother was on foot in another area bringing more cattle and daddy was flying around in the truck directing traffic ie us and heading cattle honking the horn ( which was usually not helpful)
When he was no longer able to have cattle they leased the farm to my mothers brother.
I was out in the yard one morning and saw him out in field making the funniest racket I'd ever heard. I asked my mother what in the world he was doing. She calmly said he's calling his cattle.
I had every emotion possible within a few seconds and a light bulb went on in my head. I was through driving cattle unnecessarily and was going to call mine from then on. Over 30 years later still calling cattle.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Well, Bob, you came on here like gang busters. We welcome you to the boards. Always nice to have new, fresh thoughts.
One thing you need to remember, there is a vast difference between posters on here. Some with probably more expertise on certain aspects of the beef industry than you, and a lot with very little expertise and are learning. Lets not chase away anyone.
We all live in different LOCATIONS and ENVIRONMENTS. Lots of ways to handle, raise, feed, calve, and care for lots of different kinds of cattle.
I am a 76 year "old lady" been raising Simmental for over 50 years, living in Upstate NY with 50 momma cows (which BTW is a LARGE beef operation in NY)
We have recently acquired a new member @Mark Reynolds who is an expert on grazing/grasses and he has GREAT knowledge and has been a polite teacher - which we all greatly appreciate.
We have old members on here that are quite rude. We can learn to ignore them and sometimes learn from them.
I started a thread in "Everything Else Board", "How did you get into the cattle business?"
You might visit that thread and read about some of us and then post your story.
Thanks

Thank you @Jeanne - Simme Valley for your kind words. @Bob Kinford, we appreciate who you are and welcome your knowledge. Please take time to realize that EVERY cattle producer has a different approach to their operation and EVERY cattle producer has a different knowledge level. I find that when approaching a new situation it is usually best to observe and learn what is going on before imparting my knowledge on the issue, and to not advertise who I am as it is likely most, if not everyone involved, don't have any idea who I am. I come at the situation in a manner of being "quietly competent". @bob, you will have to ask @Jeanne - Simme Valley about "The 4 Never Fail Rules of Grazing" that I quoted and it was probably the first post she saw from me. She recognized them immediately from an article she had read years before and went and looked the article up. She was a bit surprised I think to see who the author of that article is. My intent was to share knowledge, not advertise who I am.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I've been off and on. I don't usually throw out names, but at least it gives people an idea of my background. You'd be amazed at how many times I've been asked if I ever worked cattle on some of these forums.

As I stated, I've worked in every conceivable kind of geography and climate other than swamps, as well as more breeds than most. If I have learned ONE thing, its that cattle are cattle. The only real difference in stockmanship between working gentle cattle on ten acres to feral cattle in a 10,000 acre pasture is the area of influence and speed of reaction. Everything else is the same.

I've led this life because I love horses and cattle. Given the choice between being on a crew running 3,000 head or taking a salary cut to be running 1-2,000 head alone, I've always taken the latter, even if it was for half the money. Only reason I'm on here is the possibility of helping a few people.

@Bob Kinford, we don't readily need, don't really want, and don't appreciate an excessive amount of input on who you are, what you have done, why your methods work (and stated or implied that other methods don't work). Just read and follow the boards and offer your knowledge if you have something to add. If someone wants to or needs to know more they will ask. Information forced on someone is never well received, even if it is correct. I like you saying that the only reason you are on here is the possibility of helping a few people, but that should only be half the reason. The other half of the reason is to learn something and broaden your knowledge. I already told you don't advertise who you are, so I won't say who I am. But I will say this, I am NOT a cattle producer and have only worked "directly" with actual cattle on a few occasions. I will tell you who I am if you want to know. You can ask pretty much anyone on here that I've interacted with. I know my craft and I think I'm appreciated.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Just now getting caught up on this thread. It's been educational, enlightening, and entertaining.

Bob, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the US, the average family-owned cattle operation is 50 head or less. And 97% of all US operations are family owned. You'd lose your shyt if you came to my ranch. But is how I manage my cattle wrong? It's all subjective. And I have a pretty good thing going on with my operation.

Maybe not 'apples to oranges'. That would be like comparing cattle to sheep. It might be more like comparing a "Granny Smith" to a "Red Delicious". You are right though, @TCRanch, they are not the same.

@TCRanch, you are managing your cattle PERFECTLY for your operation, until YOU decide otherwise.

 

[kenny thomas]

@Bob Kinford, we don't readily need, don't really want, and don't appreciate an excessive amount of input on who you are, what you have done, why your methods work (and stated or implied that other methods don't work). Just read and follow the boards and offer your knowledge if you have something to add. If someone wants to or needs to know more they will ask. Information forced on someone is never well received, even if it is correct. I like you saying that the only reason you are on here is the possibility of helping a few people, but that should only be half the reason. The other half of the reason is to learn something and broaden your knowledge. I already told you don't advertise who you are, so I won't say who I am. But I will say this, I am NOT a cattle producer and have only worked "directly" with actual cattle on a few occasions. I will tell you who I am if you want to know. You can ask pretty much anyone on here that I've interacted with. I know my craft and I think I'm appreciated.

If you look Bob has been on this board almost since the beginning. 2005 if i remember correctly. He has brought up some good points that i probably wont follow but im glad he brought it up. Anyone that has really dealt with cattle for years will have something to say that will help someone.
My cattle's only stress it seems is that i am old, crippled up some and dont move fast enough. Whether rotating or feeding calves it seems im not as fast as i once was.

 

[Bob Kinford]

Just now getting caught up on this thread. It's been educational, enlightening, and entertaining.

Bob, you're comparing apples to oranges. In the US, the average family-owned cattle operation is 50 head or less. And 97% of all US operations are family owned

Simple question. Do you learn more about cattle behavior and how stress affects them staying in one place or region, basically working with the same kind of cattle, or working with as many breeds, in as many environments and styles of facilities as possible?

Other than the speed they react, and size of their "bubble" there is no real difference in how cattle (or any grazing species) react to pressure. It makes no difference if it's 10 head of Charolais in Kentucky or 500 head of bison in Montana, or 2,000 head in Australia. How they respond to differences in how they are handled affects everything from what they eat, to where they bite on grass during the growing season, to their individual performance. It also affects their cohesiveness as a herd, where they are all grazing in the same direction with density matching feed density and nutritional value.

 

[gcreekrch]

Simple question. Do you learn more about cattle behavior and how stress affects them staying in one place or region, basically working with the same kind of cattle, or working with as many breeds, in as many environments and styles of facilities as possible?

Other than the speed they react, and size of their "bubble" there is no real difference in how cattle (or any grazing species) react to pressure. It makes no difference if it's 10 head of Charolais in Kentucky or 500 head of bison in Montana, or 2,000 head in Australia. How they respond to differences in how they are handled affects everything from what they eat, to where they bite on grass during the growing season, to their individual performance. It also affects their cohesiveness as a herd, where they are all grazing in the same direction with density matching feed density and nutritional value.

One learns the most by working alone. Livestock are better teachers than humans are. I started at 3 herding the chickens.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Simple question. Do you learn more about cattle behavior and how stress affects them staying in one place or region, basically working with the same kind of cattle, or working with as many breeds, in as many environments and styles of facilities as possible?

Other than the speed they react, and size of their "bubble" there is no real difference in how cattle (or any grazing species) react to pressure. It makes no difference if it's 10 head of Charolais in Kentucky or 500 head of bison in Montana, or 2,000 head in Australia. How they respond to differences in how they are handled affects everything from what they eat, to where they bite on grass during the growing season, to their individual performance. It also affects their cohesiveness as a herd, where they are all grazing in the same direction with density matching feed density and nutritional value.

Two separate answers to the question. Every cow (and herd) is different and will have an individual (or herd) reaction. If you are talking about learning and responding to a specific animal or herd, then staying in one place will result in much better knowledge and being able to address the stress in the animal/herd. If you are talking industry wide, then working in as many and diverse locations as possible. You have to first know the overall response and treatment. After that, you have to be able to take the treatment or treatments, choose between them, and then taylor the treatment to the local needs. Simple question, not so simple of an answer.

 

[Bob Kinford]

The whole concept of calling cattle brings about a true life story of mine.
My parents worked public jobs and didn't run cows and calves they bought in 75-100 feeder steers at around 400 pounds and kept them to about 700 pounds. Most of these calves were bought a few a time at stockyards around the area. In those days those calves were all unweaned, unvaccinated, until they brought them in.
When turned out they scattered all over the place literally. The way my father did things was to drive them up to the barn to feed them. As a young boy around 7-8 years old I was dropped off at the farthest calves to bunch them up and drive them to the barn sometimes nearly a mile away on foot. I learned a lot about driving and heading cattle. My mother was on foot in another area bringing more cattle and daddy was flying around in the truck directing traffic ie us and heading cattle honking the horn ( which was usually not helpful)
When he was no longer able to have cattle they leased the farm to my mothers brother.
I was out in the yard one morning and saw him out in field making the funniest racket I'd ever heard. I asked my mother what in the world he was doing. She calmly said he's calling his cattle.
I had every emotion possible within a few seconds and a light bulb went on in my head. I was through driving cattle unnecessarily and was going to call mine from then on. Over 30 years later still calling cattle.

Interesting how cows are to sounds. One neighbor has a '95 Ford with a 7.3 diesel. When I "upgraded" to my '93, I could go into my adjoining field and his would start to bawl and look at the truck. Not because they weren't fed or out of mineral, I can promise you. They were looking for that pelleted feed he would bring them when he checked them.

I have friends in Kansas who have me go up every couple of years. All you have to do is park along any road in th

Two separate answers to the question. Every cow (and herd) is different and will have an individual (or herd) reaction. If you are talking about learning and responding to a specific animal or herd, then staying in one place will result in much better knowledge and being able to address the stress in the animal/herd. If you are talking industry wide, then working in as many and diverse locations as possible. You have to first know the overall response and treatment. After that, you have to be able to take the treatment or treatments, choose between them, and then taylor the treatment to the local needs. Simple question, not so simple of an answer

 

[Bob Kinford]

Two separate answers to the question. Every cow (and herd) is different and will have an individual (or herd) reaction. If you are talking about learning and responding to a specific animal or herd, then staying in one place will result in much better knowledge and being able to address the stress in the animal/herd. If you are talking industry wide, then working in as many and diverse locations as possible. You have to first know the overall response and treatment. After that, you have to be able to take the treatment or treatments, choose between them, and then taylor the treatment to the local needs. Simple question, not so simple of an answer.

Actually by staying in one place you never realize how much stress you are putting on your cattle without knowing it. You make the assumption that, because "it works" that it is the best way of doing things, mainly because you have never tried anything different.

I've been giving free advice to a guy with a 30 head grass fed dairy in Minnesota for the past few months. He's seen an increase in milk production as well as positive changes in how cattle are utilizing their pasture by the changes in stockmanship. The changes he's made in stockmanship are to the same as the ones used by the man who manages bison for the Fort Belknap and American Prairie Reserve bison herds (who is one of my students.) Situations may differ, but the basic stockmanship methods remain a constant no matter where you are.

 

[Bob Kinford]

Maybe not 'apples to oranges'. That would be like comparing cattle to sheep. It might be more like comparing a "Granny Smith" to a "Red Delicious". You are right though, @TCRanch, they are not the same.

@TCRanch, you are managing your cattle PERFECTLY for your operation, until YOU decide otherwise.

Actually I got started down this road BECAUSE of the difference of grazing behavior between cattle and sheep or goats. Now that I've figured out how to get cattle to graze like sheep or goats, the sheep and goats are scattered out like cattle, all because of stockmanship methods and calling to feed.

Best quote from a student was from a guy in Mexico who had herded goats as a kid. When the light went on he said "Like goats."

 

[Bob Kinford]

One learns the most by working alone. Livestock are better teachers than humans are. I started at 3 herding the chickens.

Working alone while riding hammer headed broncs is almost as good as chickens

 

[TCRanch]

Simple question. Do you learn more about cattle behavior and how stress affects them staying in one place or region, basically working with the same kind of cattle, or working with as many breeds, in as many environments and styles of facilities as possible?

Other than the speed they react, and size of their "bubble" there is no real difference in how cattle (or any grazing species) react to pressure. It makes no difference if it's 10 head of Charolais in Kentucky or 500 head of bison in Montana, or 2,000 head in Australia. How they respond to differences in how they are handled affects everything from what they eat, to where they bite on grass during the growing season, to their individual performance. It also affects their cohesiveness as a herd, where they are all grazing in the same direction with density matching feed density and nutritional value.

Well, Bob, I learn about MY cattle behavior because I'm with them every day. And that segues into how I act/react when I help friends with their cattle. So, one place/region, similar breeds of cattle, similar facilities. Except some of my friends' cattle are bat shyt crazy and could possibly benefit from your expertise. The majority of time, it's just me. And I know everything about every one of my cows, calves, bulls & retained heifers. I do have a crew on horseback when I work the herd & wean the calves. But they're phenomenal: quiet, round 'em up & move slowly, no flapping of arms, very uniform, etc. There are no hot shots in the corral, alley or chute. There is no yelling. But there is a lot of laughter because working cattle is FUN, and my crew has been with me forever.

Gonna share a little video with you. The majority of filming was at our ranch (when it was 90 degrees and rotten hot). Do my cattle look stressed? They're used to ranch tours and selfies with world renowned chefs & distributors. And yup, I'm carrying around a bucket. That's what works in my world. And I have no intention of ever rounding up 500 head of bison (they still have them in KS).

 

[Travlr]

Well, Bob, I learn about MY cattle behavior because I'm with them every day. And that segues into how I act/react when I help friends with their cattle. So, one place/region, similar breeds of cattle, similar facilities. Except some of my friends' cattle are bat shyt crazy and could possibly benefit from your expertise. The majority of time, it's just me. And I know everything about every one of my cows, calves, bulls & retained heifers. I do have a crew on horseback when I work the herd & wean the calves. But they're phenomenal: quiet, round 'em up & move slowly, no flapping of arms, very uniform, etc. There are no hot shots in the corral, alley or chute. There is no yelling. But there is a lot of laughter because working cattle is FUN, and my crew has been with me forever.

Gonna share a little video with you. The majority of filming was at our ranch (when it was 90 degrees and rotten hot). Do my cattle look stressed? They're used to ranch tours and selfies with world renowned chefs & distributors. And yup, I'm carrying around a bucket. That's what works in my world. And I have no intention of ever rounding up 500 head of bison (they still have them in KS).

Very nicely done video...

I wish I knew enough to do one like it.

And the cattle look great. too...

 

[gcreekrch]

Working alone while riding hammer headed broncs is almost as good as chickens

I wanted to be a cowboy until I was about 18, then I wanted to be a cowman. I pick up a rope occasionally still. 2022, I hadn't been on a horse for three years or picked up a rope. A good friend who heads a lot looked after me and we split $2400 at our local Stampede with an 8.9 run. I have nothing to prove.

Ridden the horses in my younger years too, have the aches to remember them by.

 

[Travlr]

I wanted to be a cowboy until I was about 18, then I wanted to be a cowman. I pick up a rope occasionally still. 2022, I hadn't been on a horse for three years or picked up a rope. A good friend who heads a lot looked after me and we split $2400 at our local Stampede with an 8.9 run. I have nothing to prove.

Ridden the horses in my younger years too, have the aches to remember them by.

Got a nice scar from being thrown through a barb wire fence. Had the same horse fall on me and I stuck with it when it got up and I was fine.

 

[Katpau]

I started this thread. I am 70 years old and learned to call in the cows to the dairy barn when I was a small child growing up in Minnesota. I also had a call I used to call in the horses when I wanted to go for a ride. I was curious if others did the same. I wasn't expecting it to be particularly controversial.

When we moved to our ranch in Oregon, it just seemed natural to call the cows to us, but it did take some time before they recognized my call as a good thing. When we first moved here over 30 years ago, we would use horses to find and gather the cows. It would have been easier at the time, if I'd had a good cow dog or two. The cattle could easily avoid us by circling back into the timber. We run the cattle on a ranch that is about 1000 acres and over the years we have divided it into 10 pastures with lots of places in most pastures for cattle to hide. About half is forest and there are very few flat spots. When winter came, we had to feed hay and I would do my call whenever we put out hay. Pretty soon they learned to come to that call, and from then on the call works whether they get a flake of hay or not. These cows have never seen grain and most of the year the call is used in order to call the cows out of the woods or a hidden draw, so they can be moved to another pasture. Each generation of cows learns the call from the past generation. I seldom need to give them a reward because they are usually rewarded with access to a new pasture. It even works to call them into the corrals when we need to work them. The corrals are in the middle of the ranch and the cattle often move through them when changing pastures, so they come in willingly without a reward. Calling the cows may not work for everyone, but on this ranch an ATV is not an option because of the terrain and calling them in sure saves time compared to catching and saddling up a horse. Besides that, a good horse these days can cost more than an ATV and that doesn't even include feed, hoof maintenance and the labor involved in their upkeep.

 

[Logan52]

Calling cows is a relict of the old ways that stretch back in history to the earliest interactions between men and cows. It may, or may not, be efficient in today's modern world where efficiency is the measure of all production practices. Yet, it is a real thing that has been around long before any of us.

The generation before me, here where I live, were part of a world much different than the one today. Tobacco, corn and hogs ruled the day. Small herds of beef cattle were more of a sideline, mainly for the larger and more prosperous farmers. Every family had a milk cow. The typical farmer might have two or three milk cows and sold cream. These cows ranged along the old road right of ways and creeks, often in a sort of commons or open range sort of situation. A distinctive call and shepherd dog brought them in at milking time.
The owner of a few beef cows would go out with a bucket of loose salt from time to time to call in the cows and scatter the salt for the cows. He used this as an opportunity to count them and check their condition.

As time goes on, I call the cattle less and bang the feed bucket more. There are probably better ways that I am unfamiliar with.