kenny thomas
Well-known member
Pretty darn good background.
I don't think any technique that causes your cattle to come up easily and quietly so you can work them is bad stockmanship. I understand about not turning them into pets, none of ours are but if for some reason I need to move the cattle here I can get them all to come to a call and go damn near anywhere I want them to go and it all started by influencing them with feed and for the biggest part they understand that a little feed will be at the end of their journey wherever that might be
I'll admit that occasionally I've called cattle names which would get you thrown out of churchMostly I call cows you #@*&!^%. If they are being good I don't call them anything.
Last Saturday B and I were working some cows. One of these fine eastern Oregon range cows turned back on him. From where I was I could see she missed him with her head but as she went by him her shoulder and them her belly rolled him vertically along the lodge pole corral. I asked if he was OK. He replied that he was fine but some adult language had been used.
It is evident that very few of the people commenting actually looked at your website, read the blogs, or watched the videos.As a bit of background, I'm 69 years old and started helping with livestock at the age of 5. Other than two years in the USAF, the majority of my life has been spent looking at cattle from between the ears of a horse, in every climate/ geographical area (other than swamp) and under more kinds of management systems than most people have heard about (not to mention working cattle in herds of over 2,000 head.) Last feedlot I worked in was 98,000 head capacity. During the fall rush it wasn't uncommon for me to pull 3,000+ sick calves a month, pulse sort back 9,000 head from the sick pen back to their home pens. I can't say I've been exposed to every stockmanship method under the sun, but I've had exposure to more methods, with more breeds and individuals, in more environments the average person in the business. My methods were approved of by Bud Williams, and Temple Grandin mentioned my work in her book on livestock care.
In addition, I'm referred to by people in the regenerative grazing world such as Allan Savory's son Rodger, Alejandro Carrillos, and Fernando Falomir (Understanding Ag's grazing specialist.)
In essence, when I make a comment or give a suggestion it is from an experience base far beyond the average person in the business.
Before you think i'm being rude, many (if not most) of us have had a friend, family member or know someone who had a person close to commit suicide. Most of the time no one had a clue to the fact that the person was under enough stress to kill themselves. If we can't tell when a human we know and care about is stressed out enough to kill themselves, how can we honestly tell if our cows are stressed or not?I don't think any technique that causes your cattle to come up easily and quietly so you can work them is bad stockmanship. I understand about not turning them into pets, none of ours are but if for some reason I need to move the cattle here I can get them all to come to a call and go damn near anywhere I want them to go and it all started by influencing them with feed and for the biggest part they understand that a little feed will be at the end of their journey wherever that might be
As a bit of background, I'm 69 years old and started helping with livestock at the age of 5. Other than two years in the USAF, the majority of my life has been spent looking at cattle from between the ears of a horse, in every climate/ geographical area (other than swamp) and under more kinds of management systems than most people have heard about (not to mention working cattle in herds of over 2,000 head.) Last feedlot I worked in was 98,000 head capacity. During the fall rush it wasn't uncommon for me to pull 3,000+ sick calves a month, pulse sort back 9,000 head from the sick pen back to their home pens. I can't say I've been exposed to every stockmanship method under the sun, but I've had exposure to more methods, with more breeds and individuals, in more environments the average person in the business. My methods were approved of by Bud Williams, and Temple Grandin mentioned my work in her book on livestock care.
In addition, I'm referred to by people in the regenerative grazing world such as Allan Savory's son Rodger, Alejandro Carrillos, and Fernando Falomir (Understanding Ag's grazing specialist.)
In essence, when I make a comment or give a suggestion it is from an experience base far beyond the average person in the business.
I don't think anyone on here disparaged you, nor did they disagree with your ways or disbelieve in your experience. They didn't agree with your statement disparaging them. There's a difference in the 2.As a bit of background, I'm 69 years old and started helping with livestock at the age of 5. Other than two years in the USAF, the majority of my life has been spent looking at cattle from between the ears of a horse, in every climate/ geographical area (other than swamp) and under more kinds of management systems than most people have heard about (not to mention working cattle in herds of over 2,000 head.) Last feedlot I worked in was 98,000 head capacity. During the fall rush it wasn't uncommon for me to pull 3,000+ sick calves a month, pulse sort back 9,000 head from the sick pen back to their home pens. I can't say I've been exposed to every stockmanship method under the sun, but I've had exposure to more methods, with more breeds and individuals, in more environments the average person in the business. My methods were approved of by Bud Williams, and Temple Grandin mentioned my work in her book on livestock care.
In addition, I'm referred to by people in the regenerative grazing world such as Allan Savory's son Rodger, Alejandro Carrillos, and Fernando Falomir (Understanding Ag's grazing specialist.)
In essence, when I make a comment or give a suggestion it is from an experience base far beyond the average person in the business.
Well, I could drop some names too but no need, my neighbors know what I can accomplish and they are all that count.As a bit of background, I'm 69 years old and started helping with livestock at the age of 5. Other than two years in the USAF, the majority of my life has been spent looking at cattle from between the ears of a horse, in every climate/ geographical area (other than swamp) and under more kinds of management systems than most people have heard about (not to mention working cattle in herds of over 2,000 head.) Last feedlot I worked in was 98,000 head capacity. During the fall rush it wasn't uncommon for me to pull 3,000+ sick calves a month, pulse sort back 9,000 head from the sick pen back to their home pens. I can't say I've been exposed to every stockmanship method under the sun, but I've had exposure to more methods, with more breeds and individuals, in more environments the average person in the business. My methods were approved of by Bud Williams, and Temple Grandin mentioned my work in her book on livestock care.
In addition, I'm referred to by people in the regenerative grazing world such as Allan Savory's son Rodger, Alejandro Carrillos, and Fernando Falomir (Understanding Ag's grazing specialist.)
In essence, when I make a comment or give a suggestion it is from an experience base far beyond the average person in the business.
If you are looking to improve your stockmanship I'm sure most of us on here would be willing to help you out if you just ask some questions.Calling cows to feed, or using feed to gentle cattle is a poor substitute for good stockmanship. Having cattle that eat out of your hand makes for cool pictures, but in reality you have created an animal with no respect for you. Improve your stockmanship and it makes things flow smoother and actually adds money to your bottom line that you don't realize you're currently throwing away.
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Regenerate pastures utilizing natural herd and migratory instincts of cattle.rather than fences and daily moves. Grazing schools and consulting available to help manage infrastructure costs and development. Work smarter, not harder!migratorygrazing.com
Glad you started that thread, Jeanne. One of my favorite current ones. @Bob Kinford joined the forums in 2005. After 18 years he probably knows about the rude ones.Well, Bob, you came on here like gang busters. We welcome you to the boards. Always nice to have new, fresh thoughts.
One thing you need to remember, there is a vast difference between posters on here. Some with probably more expertise on certain aspects of the beef industry than you, and a lot with very little expertise and are learning. Lets not chase away anyone.
We all live in different LOCATIONS and ENVIRONMENTS. Lots of ways to handle, raise, feed, calve, and care for lots of different kinds of cattle.
I am a 76 year "old lady" been raising Simmental for over 50 years, living in Upstate NY with 50 momma cows (which BTW is a LARGE beef operation in NY)
We have recently acquired a new member @Mark Reynolds who is an expert on grazing/grasses and he has GREAT knowledge and has been a polite teacher - which we all greatly appreciate.
We have old members on here that are quite rude. We can learn to ignore them and sometimes learn from them.
I started a thread in "Everything Else Board", "How did you get into the cattle business?"
You might visit that thread and read about some of us and then post your story.
Thanks
As a bit of background, I'm 69 years old and started helping with livestock at the age of 5. Other than two years in the USAF, the majority of my life has been spent looking at cattle from between the ears of a horse, in every climate/ geographical area (other than swamp) and under more kinds of management systems than most people have heard about (not to mention working cattle in herds of over 2,000 head.) Last feedlot I worked in was 98,000 head capacity. During the fall rush it wasn't uncommon for me to pull 3,000+ sick calves a month, pulse sort back 9,000 head from the sick pen back to their home pens. I can't say I've been exposed to every stockmanship method under the sun, but I've had exposure to more methods, with more breeds and individuals, in more environments the average person in the business. My methods were approved of by Bud Williams, and Temple Grandin mentioned my work in her book on livestock care.
In addition, I'm referred to by people in the regenerative grazing world such as Allan Savory's son Rodger, Alejandro Carrillos, and Fernando Falomir (Understanding Ag's grazing specialist.)
In essence, when I make a comment or give a suggestion it is from an experience base far beyond the average person in the business.
Whew boy... That just impresses me so much. I've never been so smart that I can't take a lesson from the dimmest bulb in any room, but now I think I may have met the one guy that could give me a sunburn just by basking in his brilliance.
Makes me wonder why you've never caught on to the brilliance involved in calling cows though. I mean... it's almost like in your many decades of cowmanship you might have just done the same year's experiences over and over and over so that you really only have a single year of cowboying... just done 30 times.
I mean... otherwise you would have experienced the brightness in calling cattle instead of chasing them around on your pony.
I don't have much brilliance, just a checkered past. What was totally missed in translation is how much money you are throwing away using "good stockmanship" in calling cattle. I can have 1,000 head of cattle (any classification) acting as a herd for months. As soon as you pull out with a feed wagon for them to crowd around, they scatter around the pasture like marbles from the stress of competing for food. By comparing methods I've discovered that calling them to feed, verses placing the feed out in several lines a pickup's width apart adds a half pound a day to your adg, in addition to nearly doubling heifer conception rates. Oh, and you don't have to have a horse, you can do it on foot@Bob Kinford
I've been thinking about my reply to your reply to me, (which I found pretty condescending), and although I don't believe I owe you an apology I do think it was a poor way to generate understanding on my part. So to that end, let me give you a more polite explanation of why your long and varied experience and methods may not fully encompass the experiences of several of the people on this forum.
So you are 69 and began working livestock at 5, and I'm 70 and began at 3. I'm not inclined to name-drop like you did, but I'll say that my own list is less famous but probably more financially successful than those you listed. But really, it isn't the people you know, but what you've learned, isn't it? And how you apply what you've learned?
So I got a little crusty with you. Sarcasm can be hurtful, but only if you allow it. You could also read it as humor, but few people are inclined to do that on the faceless internet like they would do over a beer.
Look, to the point, calling cattle doesn't create pets. Some people that call their cattle DO make their animals into pets and I am myself suspicious of what that does in the relationship I want with my animals. I didn't make pets... but I did call my cows. I found it much more efficient than saddling a horse (or keeping a horse) or putting gas in a machine.
Many of the people here feed their animals treats to the point that it becomes an expense. In terms of good ranch management and business success I see it as questionable just like any other unnecessary expense, but if it's their thing then all I can do is give them another point of view and that's it. I never fed my stock amounts of cubes or other supplements to call them in, or when I did call them in I never fed enough for it to be considered an expense. All anyone needs to do is train the leaders in the herd to come and they will lead the rest wherever you want them. A single coffee can full of sweet grain, only used enough to train that lead cow, will lead a thousand animals from one pasture into another or into a corral.
Back in the days of trail drives the big cattle companies would often have a lead steer that they would return to the ranch with after selling the herd. That steer was called a "Judas" by many, and it might have made several trips to the railheads before it didn't make a return trip.
The point being that your way is common to large ranches and people that don't know how many cattle they have, much less check on them every day. If you are turning out a thousand or more cows on a BLM or forest service lease every year you probably need and can afford the horses (or even helicopters) to round them up, and once you own them it's easy to use them in working the cattle. But small places with only a few hundred cows or less often have ways to work their cattle that makes things easier for a single person. And the big ranches really don't need to think they know it all just because they are bigger. Certainly they do know things smaller operators don't, and small operators are inclined to listen.
I can call a thousand cows in once the leaders are accustomed to coming to a can of grain... even if I don't have any grain. It's not a trick, or anything fancy. It's just good stockmanship.
Well again... I would use a single fifty pound bag of feed to train my cows and it would last two or three months. And once trained I could call them in without any grain at all if I needed to.I don't have much brilliance, just a checkered past. What was totally missed in translation is how much money you are throwing away using "good stockmanship" in calling cattle. I can have 1,000 head of cattle (any classification) acting as a herd for months. As soon as you pull out with a feed wagon for them to crowd around, they scatter around the pasture like marbles from the stress of competing for food. By comparing methods I've discovered that calling them to feed, verses placing the feed out in several lines a pickup's width apart adds a half pound a day to your adg, in addition to nearly doubling heifer conception rates. Oh, and you don't have to have a horse, you can do it on foot
Glad you started that thread, Jeanne. One of my favorite current ones. @Bob Kinford joined the forums in 2005. After 18 years he probably knows about the rude ones.
@Bob Kinford
I've been thinking about my reply to your reply to me, (which I found pretty condescending), and although I don't believe I owe you an apology I do think it was a poor way to generate understanding on my part. So to that end, let me give you a more polite explanation of why your long and varied experience and methods may not fully encompass the experiences of several of the people on this forum.
So you are 69 and began working livestock at 5, and I'm 70 and began at 3. I'm not inclined to name-drop like you did, but I'll say that my own list is less famous but probably more financially successful than those you listed. But really, it isn't the people you know, but what you've learned, isn't it? And how you apply what you've learned?
So I got a little crusty with you. Sarcasm can be hurtful, but only if you allow it. You could also read it as humor, but few people are inclined to do that on the faceless internet like they would do over a beer.
Look, to the point, calling cattle doesn't create pets. Some people that call their cattle DO make their animals into pets and I am myself suspicious of what that does in the relationship I want with my animals. I didn't make pets... but I did call my cows. I found it much more efficient than saddling a horse (or keeping a horse) or putting gas in a machine.
Many of the people here feed their animals treats to the point that it becomes an expense. In terms of good ranch management and business success I see it as questionable just like any other unnecessary expense, but if it's their thing then all I can do is give them another point of view and that's it. I never fed my stock amounts of cubes or other supplements to call them in, or when I did call them in I never fed enough for it to be considered an expense. All anyone needs to do is train the leaders in the herd to come and they will lead the rest wherever you want them. A single coffee can full of sweet grain, only used enough to train that lead cow, will lead a thousand animals from one pasture into another or into a corral.
Back in the days of trail drives the big cattle companies would often have a lead steer that they would return to the ranch with after selling the herd. That steer was called a "Judas" by many, and it might have made several trips to the railheads before it didn't make a return trip.
The point being that your way is common to large ranches and people that don't know how many cattle they have, much less check on them every day. If you are turning out a thousand or more cows on a BLM or forest service lease every year you probably need and can afford the horses (or even helicopters) to round them up, and once you own them it's easy to use them in working the cattle. But small places with only a few hundred cows or less often have ways to work their cattle that makes things easier for a single person. And the big ranches really don't need to think they know it all just because they are bigger. Certainly they do know things smaller operators don't, and small operators are inclined to listen.
I can call a thousand cows in once the leaders are accustomed to coming to a can of grain... even if I don't have any grain. It's not a trick, or anything fancy. It's just good stockmanship.
I've been off and on. I don't usually throw out names, but at least it gives people an idea of my background. You'd be amazed at how many times I've been asked if I ever worked cattle on some of these forums.Glad you started that thread, Jeanne. One of my favorite current ones. @Bob Kinford joined the forums in 2005. After 18 years he probably knows about the rude ones.
Bob --- you still don't get it - you are not listening. We are not in a situation that NEEDS or WANTS your way of making them a HERD. My cattle move just fine from field to field as A HERD.I don't have much brilliance, just a checkered past. What was totally missed in translation is how much money you are throwing away using "good stockmanship" in calling cattle. I can have 1,000 head of cattle (any classification) acting as a herd for months. As soon as you pull out with a feed wagon for them to crowd around, they scatter around the pasture like marbles from the stress of competing for food. By comparing methods I've discovered that calling them to feed, verses placing the feed out in several lines a pickup's width apart adds a half pound a day to your adg, in addition to nearly doubling heifer conception rates. Oh, and you don't have to have a horse, you can do it on foot
Its all context. How many heifers, hand raised all of their life, is a big difference from 500 heifers on 30,000 acres of desert. Jumping from 0.75 pounds a day and a 43% conception rate in 120 days to 1.25 pounds a day and a 84% conception rate in 60 days is a big jump.Bob, so if I can call my cow and heifers by rattling a feed bucket occasionally and they bred back 100% the last few years, can you your methods double my conception rate? Can they now calve twice a year with your method? Haha