How do you call the cows

[Brute 23]

If you're cattle are rebooted, yes. In reality calves are gaining weight, they just gain more when you change up how you deliver feed. All cattle behavior is a natural reaction to what we do with them. I never thought about stress during feeding until I started taking feed to a group of calve which had been grazing as a tight unit for three months. The stress of competing for feed for one day had them scattered across the pasture. That got me curious and (as I had three herds of 4-600) s

Sorry its taken so long to get back to answering it. Been trying to figure out how to answer it in a way which doesn't sound condescending. Short answer is yes, with the caveat IF you've done your prep right in conjunction with the change in stockmanship. Do that and the calves will be in the same place so your not running around trying to gather them. If the pasture is remote, put your feed on the pickup and pull your horse in a bumper pull pickup. put out your feed then pull your trailer somewhere away from the feed so they don't associate it with being fed. Then all you have to do is start the calves towards the feed (from the side of the cattle closest to the feed), and as soon as you are confident the lead is going to hit the feed you're done. If you stay and watch them, by the second or third day, as soon as the lead hits the feed, the rest come in bucking and playing and spread out to eat with no competing for feed.

I know it's hard to wrap your mind around, especially as a lot of it is contradictory to our instincts, but it does work. The following link is a Working Cows podcast interview of a student who has implemented it out of Lusk, Wyoming that might help wrap your mind around it.

Ep. 107 – Riki Kremers – Getting Started with Migratory Grazing

Riki Kremers is a rancher from East Central Wyoming. She is an excellent business woman who has seen great improvements in her land base as she and her family have implemented Instinctive Migratory…

workingcows.net

It's not foreign at all. Does the stress of being called to feed come from the calling or the way the feed is set up, meaning, not enough feed, trough space, etc?

I am big on cattle handling and reading animals. If you learn to communicate with them its far more productive.

 

[Bob Kinford]

You spout a lot if words that are nonsense.
How many cattle do YOU OWN?

Possibly a more relevant question would be "How many management strategies (in both cattle and grass) have you been exposed to?" Or how many research projects have you been involved in concerning cattle?
I've taken jobs where the owner was in a self induced wreck, that no one else wanted, just to see if I could straighten it out. I've made decisions on which job to take, not on salary, but on which job I would learn the most from. What I didn't do is stay in one place and base my abilities on the fact I owned cows.

 

[Bob Kinford]

It's not foreign at all. Does the stress of being called to feed come from the calling or the way the feed is set up, meaning, not enough feed, trough space, etc?

I am big on cattle handling and reading animals. If you learn to communicate with them its far more productive.

 

[Travlr]

You can use the stockmanship methods on foot at you do on a horse. As long as you draw them, or utilize fade turns instead of trying to get around them or put direct pressure on the head to turn them it only takes a couple of days to get them acclimated to a horse.

Okay... so I have a question if you are willing to answer IT and only IT and not go off on a tangent of long and involved explanation as defense of your own point of view.

Have you ever stood next to someone calling their cattle in and watched with an open mind instead of being critical?

 

[Bob Kinford]

It's not foreign at all. Does the stress of being called to feed come from the calling or the way the feed is set up, meaning, not enough feed, trough space, etc?

I am big on cattle handling and reading animals. If you learn to communicate with them its far more productive

True, but there are different ways of communicating. Bud Williams didn't mention things I was doing in his schools. When I asked them about them his response was "They work good, but are too advanced to teach." Unless you asked him about them directly he wouldn't even mention them. It took me over twenty years to figure out that everything in stockmanship is basic. Try going against cattle in three different ways to speed them up and see what happens. Do it normally, with your horse moving parallel to the cattle. Do it again, moving parallel to the cattle, but with your horse doing a shoulder in so that it's focus is on the cattle. Do it a third time with your horse doing a shoulder out so that it's focus is completely off the cows. You will get three completely different responses.

 

[Bob Kinford]

Okay... so I have a question if you are willing to answer IT and only IT and not go off on a tangent of long and involved explanation as defense of your own point of view.

Have you ever stood next to someone calling their cattle in and watched with an open mind instead of being critical

Considering I used to call them myself, yes.

 

[Brute 23]

True, but there are different ways of communicating. Bud Williams didn't mention things I was doing in his schools. When I asked them about them his response was "They work good, but are too advanced to teach." Unless you asked him about them directly he wouldn't even mention them. It took me over twenty years to figure out that everything in stockmanship is basic. Try going against cattle in three different ways to speed them up and see what happens. Do it normally, with your horse moving parallel to the cattle. Do it again, moving parallel to the cattle, but with your horse doing a shoulder in so that it's focus is on the cattle. Do it a third time with your horse doing a shoulder out so that it's focus is completely off the cows. You will get three completely different responses.

You didn't answer the question.

Name dropping does not impress me, either.

 

[Brute 23]

@Bob Kinford I'm capable of some pretty high level discussion as long as it's not one way. I'm being as patient and open as I can possibly be here.

 

[Travlr]

Considering I used to call them myself, yes.

Okay... so try to answer this in a way everyone can understand.

Why is calling them, allowing them to walk in at their own pace with no pressure from the rear, not as good as pushing them from the rear?

 

[gcreekrch]

Okay... so try to answer this in a way everyone can understand.

Why is calling them, allowing them to walk in at their own pace with no pressure from the rear, not as good as pushing them from the rear?

Just try pushing your wife into doing something or asking her to do it and find out the difference of pressure!

 

[Bob Kinford]

You didn't answer the question.

Name dropping does not impress me, either.

My apologies, I was responding to the bottom half of your question. In response to the top half it is a combination thereof. I didn't think anything about it until I saw negative changes in yearlings I was taking care of. Rather than ignoring the changes, I started experimenting with feeding methods to see what the changes would be in changes of behavior and gains.

I gave you an example to the fact there are different ways of communicating, plus something to experiment with and you took it as "name dropping."

 

[Bob Kinford]

Okay... so try to answer this in a way everyone can understand.

Why is calling them, allowing them to walk in at their own pace with no pressure from the rear, not as good as pushing them from the rear?

Great question. First, I don't push. I mainly use approaches which first draws their attention to me, then take advantage of their instinct to go around me, or by me in the direction I want them to go. If I want to get more motion, I do it by riding against their movement.

 

[mwj]

So are you talking about feeding methods? That is not the topic we were discussing.

 

[gcreekrch]

Great question. First, I don't push. I mainly use approaches which first draws their attention to me, then take advantage of their instinct to go around me, or by me in the direction I want them to go. If I want to get more motion, I do it by riding against their movement.

Regardless how you word it Bob, you are creating pressure.

We feed our calves grain every day all winter, cows are also supplemented with pellets. They are lined up at the gate or feed bunk every day bawling like shoppers at a Walmart Black Friday sale.

It is also better to feed on open fields in a circle large enough that everyone fits shoulder to shoulder. A long line creates an opportunity for the pigs to take a bite and run through the herd. A few days of circles and everyone drops their head and eats.

 

[Silver]

I like the circle, but also think feeding in parallel strips works well too. I do the strips these days because I'm not just feeding, I'm also fertilizing a hay field and I want to fertilize it evenly from corner to corner.

 

[Brute 23]

I give up. I know when some one is trying not to answer questions. Plus, any one who critiicizes every one else before they even talk to then to see what they are doing has no intentions having an honest discussion. He wants the traffic and the clicks on his site.

 

[Warren Allison]

You do know how to do that cell phone block thing right? Hahaha, just kidding.

Actually she ended up calling me. Very, very pleasant conversation, with a lady who definitely knows cattle! I learned something from her today during our chat. I have said this before: From just reading the things she posts. But after talking with her today for ..what @Jeanne - Simme Valley .. maybe 30 minutes?.... I will say without a shadow of a doubt, I would buy or reccommend someone to buy...any cattle she had for sale ...sight unseen.

I tried to explain what I think you, @Bob Kinford , meant by saying that calling the cattle with a bucket causes stress, but don't think I did a good job. I do know, that you aren't talking about the same level of stress you get from de-horning one with no anesthesia, or weaning a calf, or crowding them in a trailer for a 500 mile trip, or worst of all, some idiot using a hotshot on them in a confined space like I used to see in sale barns. I think, as does Jeanne, that maybe you should explain on here, what kind of stress, what level , and why or how this stresses them. Lay it out in simple language, so anyone who wants to can understand it, and let them chew on that info, and see if they can use any of it.
I have the same fault. I met my ole lady 15 years ago, and she had never been on a horse, or rode a motorcycle in her then 47 years of life. I bought her a motorcycle and taught her to ride. We nearly split up several times over that. Taught her to ride a horse too, but with the same results. I got my first horse at 4 yrs old, and first motorcycle at 10, and I can not remember not knowing how to ride, or being afraid of a horse or a bike. So she says I am the worst beginner's teacher EVER.

Jeanne and I both agree with your way of handling cattle horseback. You do what I have been doing for 50 + years, so THAT got my attention right off, She gets it too. Heck, she raised trained and raced QHs for years! Quite a few others on here know it, too. The trolls that say you are driving, pushing or chasing these cattle with a horse, are clueless idiots as far as horses go, anyhow) that will never get it.

So @Bob Kinford will you try to explain just one more time, how feeding/calling cows causes stress, how much stress, and why it does? How would this knowledge apply to someone with 3 gentle pair in a five acre pasture?

 

[Travlr]

Great question. First, I don't push. I mainly use approaches which first draws their attention to me, then take advantage of their instinct to go around me, or by me in the direction I want them to go. If I want to get more motion, I do it by riding against their movement.

Okay, so you are conscious of their comfort zone. But the above sounds like you are standing in the way of where they want to be and just moving out of their way. As far as you getting them to go in a direction, you are placing yourself in a spot that uses their comfort zone to avoid getting close to you.

Pretty standard stuff so far.

Whether you are calling it pressure or something else it amounts to the same thing.

Why is calling cattle more stressful than a guy (on foot or on a horse) using a cow's comfort zone to get them moving, and to force them to change direction?

 

[mwj]

Actually she ended up calling me. Very, very pleasant conversation, with a lady who definitely knows cattle! I learned something from her today during our chat. I have said this before: From just reading the things she posts. But after talking with her today for ..what @Jeanne - Simme Valley .. maybe 30 minutes?.... I will say without a shadow of a doubt, I would buy or reccommend someone to buy...any cattle she had for sale ...sight unseen.

I tried to explain what I think you, @Bob Kinford , meant by saying that calling the cattle with a bucket causes stress, but don't think I did a good job. I do know, that you aren't talking about the same level of stress you get from de-horning one with no anesthesia, or weaning a calf, or crowding them in a trailer for a 500 mile trip, or worst of all, some idiot using a hotshot on them in a confined space like I used to see in sale barns. I think, as does Jeanne, that maybe you should explain on here, what kind of stress, what level , and why or how this stresses them. Lay it out in simple language, so anyone who wants to can understand it, and let them chew on that info, and see if they can use any of it.
I have the same fault. I met my ole lady 15 years ago, and she had never been on a horse, or rode a motorcycle in her then 47 years of life. I bought her a motorcycle and taught her to ride. We nearly split up several times over that. Taught her to ride a horse too, but with the same results. I got my first horse at 4 yrs old, and first motorcycle at 10, and I can not remember not knowing how to ride, or being afraid of a horse or a bike. So she says I am the worst beginner's teacher EVER.

Jeanne and I both agree with your way of handling cattle horseback. You do what I have been doing for 50 + years, so THAT got my attention right off, She gets it too. Heck, she raised trained and raced QHs for years! Quite a few others on here know it, too. The trolls that say you are driving, pushing or chasing these cattle with a horse, are clueless idiots as far as horses go, anyhow) that will never get it.

So @Bob Kinford will you try to explain just one more time, how feeding/calling cows causes stress, how much stress, and why it does? How would this knowledge apply to someone with 3 gentle pair in a five acre pasture?

Your last sentence explains why things go sideways in these threads.

 

[Warren Allison]

seems like to me if a cow will come to a rattling gate chain that would be no different than calling out or shaking a bucket as far as stress goes, it's reaction to a learned and liked stimulus. One is no different than the other. I will agree that most cattle will remain quieter when moved on horse back, but only if they have been around a horse and most cattle if they're used to a horse will remain as quiet with a horse as a single human in a pen and often quieter if they've been moved horseback a lot

Again, you nailed it. Anytime I go look at cattle, I tell the owner I am bringing a horse to ride to look at them. Many say " Oh no! They will jump every fence for miles around if you get after them with a horses" I tell them no they won't and ask if they wanna bet on some of the asking price on that? Even if they have had wanna be cowboys running them with a horse, or idiots chasing them with motor vehicles, or siccing damned dogs on the, they won't run from me. I tell them if they know how to ride, I will bring them one too, but they have to listen to me and do exactly as I say. If someone calls me to catch cows for them, and they say others have tried but couldn't, I tell them to let them alone for a month. No one in the pasture with them on a 4 wheeler, truck etc., or on foot, and for sure..no dogs in the pasture. They are surprised when I go into the pasture, and just sit my horse quietly for 30 minutes to an hour, once we see the cows.