How do you call the cows

[Brute 23]

Before you think i'm being rude, many (if not most) of us have had a friend, family member or know someone who had a person close to commit suicide. Most of the time no one had a clue to the fact that the person was under enough stress to kill themselves. If we can't tell when a human we know and care about is stressed out enough to kill themselves, how can we honestly tell if our cows are stressed or not?

Part of my journey has been studying stress in cows. Its common belief that cows aren't stressed when we call them to feed. Just because they come in, we think they aren't stressed. I've had clients take my advice to put out the feed in three to five lines, a pickup with apart, then take the cattle to the feed. The amount of stress relieved on the cattle doing this adds an average of a half a pound a day to their gain. Nearly everyone is handling their cattle in ways which is costing them money in the form of extra shrink they aren't aware of. I've measured the shrink of leaving cattle in a pen (with water) then weighed them again four days later when they were shipped to discover they had only gained back half of the extra shrink.

That sounds pretty on a poster or a website but as an operator I have to use realistic math. I have to evaluate the cost to go gather cattle and bring them to feed vs the cost to call them. There are a lot of good stockman and very smart people who can't make it in the cattle business because if you cant put actual costs to your business... the rest means nothing.

 

[Brute 23]

Well, Bob, you came on here like gang busters. We welcome you to the boards. Always nice to have new, fresh thoughts.
One thing you need to remember, there is a vast difference between posters on here. Some with probably more expertise on certain aspects of the beef industry than you, and a lot with very little expertise and are learning. Lets not chase away anyone.
We all live in different LOCATIONS and ENVIRONMENTS. Lots of ways to handle, raise, feed, calve, and care for lots of different kinds of cattle.
I am a 76 year "old lady" been raising Simmental for over 50 years, living in Upstate NY with 50 momma cows (which BTW is a LARGE beef operation in NY)
We have recently acquired a new member @Mark Reynolds who is an expert on grazing/grasses and he has GREAT knowledge and has been a polite teacher - which we all greatly appreciate.
We have old members on here that are quite rude. We can learn to ignore them and sometimes learn from them.
I started a thread in "Everything Else Board", "How did you get into the cattle business?"
You might visit that thread and read about some of us and then post your story.
Thanks

He is far from new. He shows up every so often to pitch his wares. New Year I guess he needs to market to any new comers.

He has good info but will not say or agree to any thing that contradicts his sales pitch. If you out enough pressure on him he will go away for 6 months or so, again.

He talks about this stuff like we are all stupid and he invented cattle handling. We just just don't harp on it because it's not our "brand", it's every day stuff to us.

 

[Travlr]

We had a milk cow time that wouldn't back down from the dog, good working dog but she completely had that dog's number. When the wolves came through one night she was obviously the the one that made a stand. Just a few shiny bones was all that was left in the morning.

I had a sale barn Angus heifer like that. She would chase the dog around the pasture with blood in her eye unless the dog was on the ATV with me, and even then I could tell she was on the prod. If I'd walked away from the ATV she might have gone after the dog. She HATED dogs. We didn't have problems with wolves or farm packs so I got rid of her in a hurry.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

The only way Bob's theory of calling/feeding cattle would be stressful on the cattle would be IF you did not feed enough and IF you did not have enough SPACE for them all to get a mouthful. Other than that, he is way off base and like I said, selling snake oil to newbies.
ALL THE C/C producers that have responded about calling their cattle, are NOT stressing their cattle. We use it as a calm TOOL. Cattle stay calm. Like I said, my COWS never get grain, just a new pasture. I don't care which way their heads are pointed when they are out grazing. They get turned into a paddock large enough to feed them for 2-5 days. They can go any direction they want. They are not stressed or being inefficient. They are grazing happily and affectively - until I call them again!
Quit trying to TEACH us something that is non-beneficial to us. If someone is interested in your foo foo dust, they can buy your book or hire you to come to their place. This is not the place for you to keep driving YOUR ideas of how WE should be running our cattle.

LOL. @Jeanne - Simme Valley, don't get your feathers too ruffled. Anyone that stops and thinks about it can tell that the cattle are NOT stressed when they come TO you at a leisurely walk/trot and aren't high-tailing it in the other direction. You do add another important point here about stress. The animals will be stressed if the resource is limiting. That being not enough food/gain or whatever you are calling them to. This includes not having enough pasture. Something that so called farmers (so called because a real farmer thinks about it) don't think about or they think it doesn't matter.

 

[Bob Kinford]

That sounds pretty on a poster or a website but as an operator I have to use realistic math. I have to evaluate the cost to go gather cattle and bring them to feed vs the cost to call them. There are a lot of good stockman and very smart people who can't make it in the cattle business because if you cant put actual costs to your business... the rest means nothing.

Clients who have started doing this on their fresh weaned calves are reporting an increase of a half pound a day in their adg. When their calves are running together they generally know right where their calves are, it seldom results in over an extra hour. Do the math for your sized herd, but they are averaging under an hour a day for herds of 1,500. If you're running 100 head, with gain worth $1.25 per pound you're looking at that hour putting an extra $75 in your pocket per day.

 

[Bob Kinford]

This guys only purpose here is to pitch his website. No matter what he says, he is a salesman first and stockman second... or some where after that.

If I were a salesman

 

[Travlr]

another important point here about stress. The animals will be stressed if the resource is limiting. That being not enough food/gain or whatever you are calling them to.

That may apply to pasture... but not to a corral. When you train a leader to come to a can of grain the rest follow naturally and if they don't get any grain it doesn't "stress" them other than to know they should have been quicker than the lead cow. Cattle in any natural setting jostle each other for the good stuff and compete to get it first. It's something they are used to and comfortable with. Natural, normal cow behavior. This isn't elementary school where everyone has to get a participation award or they have low self esteem.

 

[Brute 23]

Clients who have started doing this on their fresh weaned calves are reporting an increase of a half pound a day in their adg. When their calves are running together they generally know right where their calves are, it seldom results in over an extra hour. Do the math for your sized herd, but they are averaging under an hour a day for herds of 1,500. If you're running 100 head, with gain worth $1.25 per pound you're looking at that hour putting an extra $75 in your pocket per day.

How were they calling them before that they were losing so much weight?

Again, you are only telling me on side of the equation. How much is it costing them to do this? I'm not putting $75 a day in my pocket if your method is cost me $100 a day to do.

Being serious here... no sales pitch BS... do you honestly think those guys could gather 1500 weaned calves out of our brush or @gcreekrch mountains or else where... in that amount of time? Be honest.

 

[Brute 23]

LOL. @Jeanne - Simme Valley, don't get your feathers too ruffled. Anyone that stops and thinks about it can tell that the cattle are NOT stressed when they come TO you at a leisurely walk/trot and aren't high-tailing it in the other direction. You do add another important point here about stress. The animals will be stressed if the resource is limiting. That being not enough food/gain or whatever you are calling them to. This includes not having enough pasture. Something that so called farmers (so called because a real farmer thinks about it) don't think about or they think it doesn't matter.

You are talking about people calling them up for treats or what ever just cause?

 

[Mark Reynolds]

How were they calling them before that they were losing so much weight?

Again, you are only telling me on side of the equation. How much is it costing them to do this? I'm not putting $75 a day in my pocket if your method is cost me $100 a day to do.

Being serious here... no sales pitch BS... do you honestly think those guys could gather 1500 weaned calves out of our brush or @gcreekrch mountains or else where... in that amount of time? Be honest.

60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes per hour / 1500 calves.....2.4 seconds per animal.

 

[Brute 23]

60 seconds per minute x 60 minutes per hour / 1500 calves.....2.4 seconds per animal.

The time frame was very vague. I was hoping for some clarification.

 

[Warren Allison]

What is funny to me, is all of these people that are saying "How many cows do you own, Bob?" ROFLMAO. He has probably handled more cattle, than all of the "experts" on here have ever seen, much less owned! But that is immaterial....ownership. Never met a cattleman yet that knows more than the long-time manager of the Salacoa Valley Brangus ranch here it north Ga for forty plus years. Nor my friend that is the breeding manager and AI tech for the huge Charolais operation . I don't know of either of them personally owning these cattle. Lot of pioneering, ground-breaking Ag professors at the best agriculture colleges in the country don't either. We even have someone on here, that states it has been decades since he owned cattle, calling this man out! This is just clutching at straws.... throwing cheap shots at some offering ideas that they don't understand, Or even try to understand. @Bob Kinford , you might as well let it go, buddy. Those who got it, did about 9 pages ago. Those who don't, either don't want to , or are too "ignernt" to. So,. unless you just get a kick out of goading them into looking like fools and a$$holes, I would just let it go. YOu have already reached the ones you are going to on here.

 

[Silver]

@Warren Allison So the assumption is that Bob knows more about handling cows than anyone on this board because we assume he's spent more time working cattle and is a better student of the cow's behaviour than everyone else? Is that just because you assume he's smarter, or because he made a nice video? How does one actually determine without evidence that someone is actually a master of his craft and everyone has learned less in their time with cattle?

 

[Ky hills]

I listened to part of the videos, and read some articles.
I'm sure there's some good tips and points in there. As for handling cattle stress free, I'm not seeing the examples as being such.
If I understood the narrative example a large herd of cattle on an expansive acreage that had not been seen in a year.
If I understood that right that is certainly not what most people would consider good management.
Don't care how good you are at handling , working, moving cattle, if they aren't used to your presence it is going to be stressful for them and dangerous for the people.
The assertion that sheep, goats and cattle all have the same herding habits is something I don't quite understand.
Cattle, sheep and goats have different grazing habits and are going to be in different formations and locations especially with goats being more of browsers than grazers.
Sheep have a scent gland at the top of their hoof, that is said to be an aid to keep them in a close flock. I've seen those glands stopped up and had to press a thick waxy substance out of them to unclog the glands.
Some breeds of sheep I've read have less of a herding instinct as well, so nature and animal husbandry/selective breeding throws some curves instead of a one size fits all approach.
When forage is plentiful cattle naturally stay closer together. If it gets dry and grass is scarce they are going to spread out.
If they spread out during the day, they generally come back and group up at night.
I can't speak for vast acreages but in our small pastures, cattle may facing the same way grazing but when they come to a fence they turn around. Every animal behind them doesn't necessarily turn around at that point so yes they are turned different ways.
I don't believe that our cattle are necessarily stressed while out in pasture, or even when they come for grain. Real Stress begins when trying to handle or isolate them. Heat stress is a factor, lots of things to consider when working with cattle.
Our cows come up of a morning in their own in winter to get fed. As grass starts growing in spring they come fewer and less until none come at all. They have to be coaxed up during the summer, which is very rare. If it turn dry then they tend to come more readily when called.
We move them from field to field they readily follow and go through the open gates. We have one field across a blacktop drive, one cow refuses to step on that and won't go across. She gets put with something else. The others move pretty easy again going to that little bite of feed. Then they see the fresh grass and commence to grazing.
May not be perfect but that's how we move our cattle.

 

[Brute 23]

Insult every one, then try to impress people with a resume instead of logic, then blame them for being rude and ignorant. Where have we seen that before?

I asked two legitimate questions.

What was their cost per the additional gain?

Would that work in all environments?

 

[Warren Allison]

@Warren Allison So the assumption is that Bob knows more about handling cows than anyone on this board because we assume he's spent more time working cattle and is a better student of the cow's behaviour than everyone else? Is that just because you assume he's smarter, or because he made a nice video? How does one actually determine without evidence that someone is actually a master of his craft and everyone has learned less in their time with cattle?

Didn't say everyone, Silver. It was directed at those that assume he is wrong. Specifically to the ones who asked "How many do you own?!!" That tells a lot about how much they actually know. To those who do understand ungulate behaviour, all the evidence you would need to understand what he is tying to say, is contained in his video. Doing something for 50, 6o, 70 years....a whole lifetime.... doesn't mean a person is doing it the best. Or even doing it right. I can remember the old cotton farmers when I was growing up, that called those who tried to tell them about rotating crops "idiots". "I been doing this for 50 year, the same way my daddy did, the same way his daddy did " etc.

 

[gcreekrch]

@Warren Allison So the assumption is that Bob knows more about handling cows than anyone on this board because we assume he's spent more time working cattle and is a better student of the cow's behaviour than everyone else? Is that just because you assume he's smarter, or because he made a nice video? How does one actually determine without evidence that someone is actually a master of his craft and everyone has learned less in their time with cattle?

Ol Bob managed t0 hook one deciple……

 

[mwj]

Maybe he will give some horse handling tips and gain more followers.

 

[Named'em Tamed'em]

Maybe he will give some horse handling tips and gain more followers.

Girls with "sparkle butt" jeans spend $$ on horses.

 

[wbvs58]

Somewhat. North and east sides are bordered by an old burn and some steep hill country. Not a fence to stop them in 50 or 60 miles if they were determined to go. New cattle stay in fenced range the first year.

No fences would save a lot of work checking and repairing.

Ken