Here's a black bull for ya.

[RD-Sam]

Unless I was looking for a heifer bull, I wouldn't use him, with the combination of not caring for him in his photo and now having a birth epd that low, I would bet his is a bit to fine boned for me and doesn't have the performance or mucle that I like. If I was breeding a bunch of heifers, maybe.

http://www.angusjournal.com/provensires ... _8212.html

 

[RD-Sam]

Get your butt out from behind the computer sometime and go look at some 323 cattle and tell me (on average) if you like what you see. Carcass he does, but he can't get it done elsewhere. I understand what 036 brought to the breed, but 323 is not one of his better sons. To me, the bull you posted would be a terminal only bull.

Better yet, at the next production sale you go to, checkout the Tiffany's and see how good they are.

krenwic

So is this add for 323 a lie? Why is the semen $500 a straw on a junk bull? I'm really missing something here, not sure what it is? http://www.rishelangus.com/herdsires/br ... gn323.html

 

[krenwic]

I did not say he was a junk bull. I said I would not use him. Why? Because he is a bull that was used because of his exceptional ultrasound (at the onset of using ultrasound) and can transmit carcass quality to his progeny. Personally I prefer a bull that will produce the type of females I want first. If he adds a little carcass quality, then great.

Once agian, I have said it before. There is no perfect bull. Use the ones that do ALOT of things right, not just a few.

By the way, the Rishel website has not been updated in over 5 years. The semen used to be rare an valuable. Now, it's just rare. Probaly could pick some up for under $150.

I am not trying to prove you right or wrong...

krenwic

 

[krenwic]

RD-Sam,

I just read a post of yours I missed. I was trying to give 036 a little more credit than I guess he deserves. Didn't mean to confuse your there. Based on my other comment I guess you understand that I would not suggest linbreeding to him.

krenwic

 

[Meadowoaksfarm]

Express enough muscle where?

Beautiful Before you launch your breeding career, you might want to learn to SEE the difference between fat and muscle.

I don't understand who you think that your customers will be, are you producing cattle for the feedlot, ?because that type of cattle benefits no one but the packer, or feeders that sell grade and yield.

If your customers are cow-calf producers that sell feeder calves and depend on good moderate cows that last, with the only true economic traits (for them) of $ EN and $ W and Birth you will have a tough row to hoe.

 

[RD-Sam]

Express enough muscle where?

Beautiful Before you launch your breeding career, you might want to learn to SEE the difference between fat and muscle.

I don't understand who you think that your customers will be, are you producing cattle for the feedlot, ?because that type of cattle benefits no one but the packer, or feeders that sell grade and yield.

If your customers are cow-calf producers that sell feeder calves and depend on good moderate cows that last, with the only true economic traits (for them) of $ EN and $ W and Birth you will have a tough row to hoe.

I must have missed your introduction. What ranch is it that you own and sell 250k bulls and 100k cows from? How about all those thousands of straws of semen you are selling, I missed that too? Please do share with us all the money you have made in the cattle business and all the fine breedings you have produced that brought top dollar? :tiphat: Care to share photos of your top breeding stock? How about show prospects, got any pics of those? :tiphat:

 

[EAT BEEF]

Does a great bull cost 250,000 or 2,500? Would you or I know it before his daughters were 5 or 6,lots of 2,500 bulls sire great feeder cattle.Plenty of bulls to be had that will sire nice females for that price as well.

What is the goal of your linebreeding project? The way I see it if you get the frame size down with linebreeding the first outcross your customer makes will get the frame back.

How many people have you screwed out of 250k for an unproven bull?

 

[RD-Sam]

The goal with any linebreeding should be consistancy. Haven't screwed anybody out of anything.

 

[redluv]

I understand what Doc is getting at, but if they had several different pedigrees on the cows and few of the calves were kept, that sounds like something is up. All that genetic diversity should have produced something. But without going to someone's place, you can't determine what that specific producer is looking for, maybe they wanted something the bull wasn't giving them. And if those big breeders are using this bull, or genetic similar, you cannot determine how many they have kept either, unless you look them up on the AAA website (like I have time to do that). And of course, like with club calves, when you have several thousand cows being bred to one bull, you're going to get good ones and sch!tty ones. Look at Who Made Who, some great steers and heifers came from him, but there were far more who never made it to the show ring.

For some clarification, we have 100 angus cows and 25 angus heifers, give or take 10 depending on the year. We bred only 30 of them to Anchor. Of those 30, if my records are correct, there was four different sires in the pedigrees of the cows. So hodge podge, bad choice of words. My mistake. Around here, many people breed all their cows to the same bull for 2 years and then switch to a new one, regardless of results. We differ in that way. Better or not? I'll let the buyers decide and they haven't quit coming yet.

 

[BARNSCOOP]

I would like to say something here from a gal who has only had cattle for two years now, who's calves are all terminal but still looks for a bull to fit my program , and keeps a motley crue of 8 crossbred cows. I went out on a limb and bought a Three Trees bull last May. When I received his papers in the mail his EPD's were horrible for my program. The owner had shown me his sire's EPD's not his expected EPD's when I went to look him over .This Three Trees Bull had low BW,WW,YW,and okay Milk. I ate him after he bred my cows. I also posted his picture and you guys tore him to pieces and rightly so. The point is that even Three Trees bull calves can be a pile of Poo. Sometimes the big breeders are selling there popluar name and not there product. Surely it has to be a great bull if it comes from.........
How can you not look at EPD's for advise? Our very own Tennessee Department of Ag. will not allow any bull that is not in the top 60% of his breed average in EPD's to qualify for Ag. cattle genetics cost share programs. It's the standard they go by.
It seems to me that names and even #'s can fool you. Some people have the EYE for picking a great bull after they have seen him and his get and some of us are lost to it.

This year I picked a young Shorthorn bull that has great EPD's and phenotype. I got to see his sire and dam and many siblings, they were handsome, well bred cattle in a much thought out breeding program. My 15 month old bull has failed his first BSE, tried to ride the newborn calves, and now wears a nose ring because he steals milk! Sometimes you wonder if just buying a no named, no numbered ,good looking bull at a no name cattle auction wouldn't bring you better luck for less money? Just a thought.

 

[KNERSIE]

I would like to say something here from a gal who has only had cattle for two years now, who's calves are all terminal but still looks for a bull to fit my program , and keeps a motley crue of 8 crossbred cows. I went out on a limb and bought a Three Trees bull last May. When I received his papers in the mail his EPD's were horrible for my program. The owner had shown me his sire's EPD's not his expected EPD's when I went to look him over .This Three Trees Bull had low BW,WW,YW,and okay Milk. I ate him after he bred my cows. I also posted his picture and you guys tore him to pieces and rightly so. The point is that even Three Trees bull calves can be a pile of Poo. Sometimes the big breeders are selling there popluar name and not there product. Surely it has to be a great bull if it comes from.........
How can you not look at EPD's for advise? Our very own Tennessee Department of Ag. will not allow any bull that is not in the top 60% of his breed average in EPD's to qualify for Ag. cattle genetics cost share programs. It's the standard they go by.
It seems to me that names and even #'s can fool you. Some people have the EYE for picking a great bull after they have seen him and his get and some of us are lost to it.

This year I picked a young Shorthorn bull that has great EPD's and phenotype. I got to see his sire and dam and many siblings, they were handsome, well bred cattle in a much thought out breeding program. My 15 month old bull has failed his first BSE, tried to ride the newborn calves, and now wears a nose ring because he steals milk! Sometimes you wonder if just buying a no named, no numbered ,good looking bull at a no name cattle auction wouldn't bring you better luck for less money? Just a thought.

To set minimum standards like the Tennessee Dept of agriculture is doing is just plain silly, it isn't a one size fits all scenario when it comes to bulls. If the breed has gone down the wrong path you are forced to go along?!

It seems that you have done your homework with the second bull and although mistakes can still happen, a reputable breeder will do his utmost to rectify the problem, if and only IF he knows about the problem. Tell the breeder about the problem and not your neighbour, your neighbour (or the local coffee shop) can't do anything to help. If this breeder isn't willing to rectify the problem if it was his mistake to start with, by all means tell all your neighbours and the local coffee shop.

A few things to consider when looking at the sire, dam, sibs, etc. Always ask to see the steers, that is likely what you can expect to sell out of your new bull and it will also tell you alot about how deep the quality runs in the breeding program. Also look at the entire cowherd, that will quickly tell you whether they are in the breeding game for the long haul or whether they are following a fashion whim or playing with old money.

EPDs was never designed to replace stockmanship, it was designed to aid stockmanship, use it correctly and it can be a valuable tool, use it incorrectly and it will make you look like a fool.

 

[Frankie]

I would like to say something here from a gal who has only had cattle for two years now, who's calves are all terminal but still looks for a bull to fit my program , and keeps a motley crue of 8 crossbred cows. I went out on a limb and bought a Three Trees bull last May. When I received his papers in the mail his EPD's were horrible for my program. The owner had shown me his sire's EPD's not his expected EPD's when I went to look him over .This Three Trees Bull had low BW,WW,YW,and okay Milk. I ate him after he bred my cows. I also posted his picture and you guys tore him to pieces and rightly so. The point is that even Three Trees bull calves can be a pile of Poo. Sometimes the big breeders are selling there popluar name and not there product. Surely it has to be a great bull if it comes from.........
How can you not look at EPD's for advise? Our very own Tennessee Department of Ag. will not allow any bull that is not in the top 60% of his breed average in EPD's to qualify for Ag. cattle genetics cost share programs. It's the standard they go by.
It seems to me that names and even #'s can fool you. Some people have the EYE for picking a great bull after they have seen him and his get and some of us are lost to it.

This year I picked a young Shorthorn bull that has great EPD's and phenotype. I got to see his sire and dam and many siblings, they were handsome, well bred cattle in a much thought out breeding program. My 15 month old bull has failed his first BSE, tried to ride the newborn calves, and now wears a nose ring because he steals milk! Sometimes you wonder if just buying a no named, no numbered ,good looking bull at a no name cattle auction wouldn't bring you better luck for less money? Just a thought.

This is so bad. I'm sorry you've had such a problem. You should have taken that first bull back when his papers came in. That's dishonest and you should have called him on it.

IMO, the TN Dept of Ag is doing the right thing. Virtually every researcher, breed association, university, cattle specialist in the US will tell you that EPDs are the best indicator of an animal's breeding potential. BUT they're only part of the picutre. Pedigree and performance are also valuable, as well as a visual appraisal and vet check.

Also understand that some breeds take EPDs more seriously than others. Learn about accuracies.

In the Angus breed, many small breeders are using the same genetics as the "big guys". You can often attend smaller consignment sales, talk to the breeders, ask about their gurantee, and get a bull sired by top of the breed AI sires for less than you'll pay at a fancy sale. But if you're not satisfied with a bull, of any breed, speak up to the breeder. I think you'll find most of them willing to work with you. Don't give up.....

 

[Doug Thorson]

EPDs was never designed to replace stockmanship, it was designed to aid stockmanship, use it correctly and it can be a valuable tool, use it incorrectly and it will make you look like a fool.

Perfectly said. The worst bull ever on this place was the first one I bought instead of Dad. Only number Dad ever looked at was BW and then one quick stroll down the pens to get an idea of condition and then he would go sit in the second row and judge them on the way in. I thought I could do better by using "all the tools" but I forgot to use my eyes! :roll:

 

[TSR]

RD-Sam: what exactly are you looking for EPDs wise and phenotypically?

I look for the calving ease to be reasonable, which means the BW is going to usually be under 4. I like the milk to be around 20, but give or take 5 either way works for me. I prefer to see $EN in the positive range, but I will fudge a little if a bull has alot to offer in other areas. Scrotal needs to be breed average or better, but I might fudge a little if the bull has alot to offer in other areas and I have a cow with a good scotal EPD. Frame score on the cows between 5 and 6, bulls usually 6 to 6.5. The carcass data is what interests me the most, I like to see all of that above average in a bull, that is going to pretty much mean a high $B. Genestar data is important too. Basically if I am going to spend money on semen, the bull better be above average in a half dozen areas and a trait leader in several areas or why bother using him? There are plenty of bulls out there with great phenotype and better than average EPD's, and to me it's about breeding for improvement over breed average.

RD Sam I believe you have stated my breeding philosphy almost to the letter. You and I think alike. I can't say I wouldn't use Anchor on a specific set of cows but if I did they would have to have better carcass qualities than Anchor with probably a little more frame. When I first decided to go into the Angus business about 14 yrs ago I picked out three bloodlines to try. They were EXT, 6807, and Ambush. The only problem was finding a 6807 with a marbling score that suited me. Generally I have never been disappointed in these bloodlines on my cows most of which were of New Design blood. I just sold my highest priced bull last yr. a result of crossing an EXT daughter with a 6807 son. Now the problem becomes finding those good outcross genetics. Breeding cattle is challenging but also rewarding. Everyone have a good day!

 

[Meadowoaksfarm]

Express enough muscle where?

Beautiful Before you launch your breeding career, you might want to learn to SEE the difference between fat and muscle.

I don't understand who you think that your customers will be, are you producing cattle for the feedlot, ?because that type of cattle benefits no one but the packer, or feeders that sell grade and yield.

If your customers are cow-calf producers that sell feeder calves and depend on good moderate cows that last, with the only true economic traits (for them) of $ EN and $ W and Birth you will have a tough row to hoe.

I must have missed your introduction. What ranch is it that you own and sell 250k bulls and 100k cows from? How about all those thousands of straws of semen you are selling, I missed that too? Please do share with us all the money you have made in the cattle business and all the fine breedings you have produced that brought top dollar? :tiphat: Care to share photos of your top breeding stock? How about show prospects, got any pics of those? :tiphat:

How much money do you have in your bank account? I have more than 1 head and have for the past 30 years. I know a thing or two about cattle as well. Have a nice day.