Hereford question

[giftedcowboy]

You all should recall the latest round with Ankony Herefords????? They disappeared real fast. Supposedly one of the herd bulls came out of a feedlot of unknown origin????

 

[Herefords.US]

You all should recall the latest round with Ankony Herefords????? They disappeared real fast. Supposedly one of the herd bulls came out of a feedlot of unknown origin????

They certainly did me a huge favor by outbidding me on several lots in a couple of dispersions I went to in 2002, when I was first starting my herd. The cattle I was bidding on would have made the IE situation a lot more worrisome for me, as most were related to 9012Y.

Probably the bull you are referring to is Ankonian Midas 72. I saw him in Denver in 2003 where an interest sold in the sale. He could only be used by his owners for registered calves, and not through AI sales, as his dam had died and she couldn't be DNA typed - so they couldn't sell the certificates from him. So the rumors concerning his mother were already flying there! I don't know if there was any basis to them or not. The fact that Star Lake owns a part of him and has hardly used him says a lot about what they thought of his usefulness as a herd sire. I think they only registered one calf by him.

It was easy to tell he was a Pure Gold son just by looking at him. I was surprised he didn't win the horned show in Denver. Other than Online, he was the most impressive bull there, in my opinion. He's gone on to sire some show winners, including a Denver Champion for Sladek.

The mention of the name of Ankony always seems to raise some eyebrows.

George

 

[Brandonm22]

So let me see ,some of you say it is O.K. to lie about you cattle ....not being pure breed , ....

Nobody ever said lying was OK. What we are saying is that the American Hereford Association determines what is or is not "purebred" and if they are fine with a pedigree I think it is dishonest and unethical bordering on slander for someone else to toss out unsubstantiated allegations that they can not prove.

Also how about legal recorse against the people that sale these cattle? Should there be a fraud charge there, or is ignorance a good excuse..????

To have an actionable event in court you have to be able to prove that YOU suffered a quantifiable loss. I can't see how a black baldie sired by a son of Titan is worth any less than a black baldie sired by a son of 9012Y and I can think of a few reasons of that choice why I would rather have the Titan. Second you would have to be able to prove that fraud occurred in the first place. Proving that Titan's registry paper involved fraud would require a lot of DNA work that was not required at the time. Titan is a 1972 bull!!! Does the AHA have Titan's sire's DNA sample on file? BRITISH MISCH JN 33A, a 1969 bull!!! I guess since both are still active someone has the semen so if some judge would give you a subpoena for this you could use the semen to DNA test the sire son relationship. The dam on the other hand, AQUADALE S LASS 23A (a 1969 cow sired by Silver Masterpiece (1964)), most likely has no DNA sample on file anywhere and unless she died and was buried in a marked grave on the farm I don't see how you find her remains. If you lucked out and somebody did have such samples how would you prove whether a 1969 Hereford was a 1969 Hereford or NOT??? A lot of DNA from pre-1970 is completely lost to us. Proving that either parent has DNA not found in today's Hereford herd proves nothing. Third, for there to be fraud you would have to prove that the person who sold you said animals knew about the fraud. I was two years old when British Misch JN 33A bred Aquadale Lass and I can prove that I was not there that day and I know absolutely NOTHING about what went on that day and like I told Knersie you can't guarantee an animal's pedigree 15 generations back, but the AHA tells me that British Misch bred Aquadale Lass and I see no reasonable reason to ever doubt that fact. You can't sue the person who was there even if you could prove that a fraud occurred and they did it intentionally because the statute of limitations would apply and they are probably all DEAD anyway.

I think it sucks, and I would not want them not to be reg.or at least **************************
And as a (novice) commerical cattle, if it and pure I do not want it, It does make a difference to me....

I am sorry, but we are in an industry where a LOT of the cattle marketed out there as "Purebred" Simmental, Limousin, Gelbvieh, Salers, etc are 5-22% Angus depending largely on who is doing the DNA testing and intentionally don't even LOOK like the breed whose name is at the top of the registration paper. "Purity" is not a commodity that this industry seems really worried about. And most of what happened there happened in the last 25 years so most of those folks are still alive and in business.

 

[Hereford76]

i haven't the slightest who you are but you would be the definition of the modern day purebred breeder and i'm sure you are an excellent salesperson or lawyer or whatever. obviously you have no first hand experience in the matter and you never knew the man marketed 23d to right off any claim as rumor.

i didn't share any of my experience in the deal for sympathy. i've been over this with you before and you made it more than clear that integrity has no place in the business and I made the comment that the folks that weren't in the thick of it will never understand - you only prove that to me.

lff makes a good point about the rewards for the efforts put into a seedstock operation should be nothing more than gravy and it is a great point but rarely the case. i just feel like i need to adhere to a standard and show a little respect for the integrity and characteristics of the breed and those that bred them in the past and called themselves cattlemen.

 

[rocket2222]

As far as phenotype I have seen some Domino blood that was similar.
I agree with LFF. Let dead dogs lay.
I remember a prayer that said something about not worrying about the things I cannot change but help me change the things I can.

LFF is right. This is only an issue because Feltons Domino 774 is DISTANTLY descended from the bull and FD 774 has become one of the hottest bloodlines in the Hereford breed. I am sorry that 76 and Herefords.US have buyers who actually care about this extremely mundane ancient history and certainly if that is the case they should avoid Titan's many many descendants; but nobody else is having any difficulty marketing these genetics. FD 774 has 718 registered progeny in the AHA database including 28 sons who I can currently buy semen from and his most successful son thus far Feltons Legend 242 has 3199 birth weights that have been turned in to the AHA to date (the number registered is probably higher but the AHA would only show me the first 1500). Feltons Magnum 434 has 636 registered progeny. Ozzie has 883.

And the reason he's hot and his sons are too, is because they add marbling with calving ease for the most part, in fact his epd profile would make him a pretty good Angus bull, a whole lot of marbling at the expense of rea. I think it's just another way of turning Herefords black in some ways, without actually changing the color. There's a lot of breeders who believe we need marbling to compete with Angus, instead of promoting what Herefords do best to compliment Angus. I believe most purebred breeders really don't give a hoot, if it makes them a $.
I even been told by someone on this very board that the goal was to breed their Herefords to be more like Angus. ;-)

 

[Brandonm22]

And the reason he's hot and his sons are too, is because they add marbling with calving ease for the most part, in fact his epd profile would make him a pretty good Angus bull, a whole lot of marbling at the expense of rea. I think it's just another way of turning Herefords black in some ways, without actually changing the color. There's a lot of breeders who believe we need marbling to compete with Angus, instead of promoting what Herefords do best to compliment Angus. I believe most purebred breeders really don't give a hoot, if it makes them a $.
I even been told by someone on this very board that the goal was to breed their Herefords to be more like Angus. ;-)

I don't understand the reluctance to decrease birth weight and increase marbling. Herefords used to grade a lot better than they do now and calving ease used to be a Hereford trait. Both were lost to an extent in the 70s and 80s when chasing Simmental's frame and growth was all anybody cared about and if we had to hire somebody to pull calves out of our registered heifers or breed them to Anguses that was just part of the business. The really funny part of the last 30 years is that while Hereford was trying to be Simmental, Simmental chunked their whole identity and decided to be Angus?!?!? Now the MARC is telling us that Gelbviehs are smaller more efficient cows than Herefords. This was progress???

 

[Brandonm22]

obviously you have no first hand experience in the matter and you never knew the man marketed 23d to right off any claim as rumor.

i didn't share any of my experience in the deal for sympathy. i've been over this with you before and you made it more than clear that integrity has no place in the business and I made the comment that the folks that weren't in the thick of it will never understand - you only prove that to me.

I don't have a dawg in this fight; but one could, if they really wanted to, make the argument that repeating and digging up old rumours, ancient accusations, and flimsy stories that you can't possibly ever back up with any legally admissable evidence about other people's integrity (dead people who can't come on here and defend their good name) and their cattle's pedigrees in order to promote cattle that you yourself are selling shows a certain lack of basic business ethics and perhaps of integrity itself. Of course, we would much rather not explore that line of thought I am sure.

 

[Hereford76]

obviously you have no first hand experience in the matter and you never knew the man marketed 23d to right off any claim as rumor.

i didn't share any of my experience in the deal for sympathy. i've been over this with you before and you made it more than clear that integrity has no place in the business and I made the comment that the folks that weren't in the thick of it will never understand - you only prove that to me.

I don't have a dawg in this fight; but one could, if they really wanted to, make the argument that repeating and digging up old rumours, ancient accusations, and flimsy stories that you can't possibly ever back up with any legally admissable evidence about other people's integrity (dead people who can't come on here and defend their good name) and their cattle's pedigrees in order to promote cattle that you yourself are selling shows a certain lack of basic business ethics and perhaps of integrity itself. Of course, we would much rather not explore that line of thought I am sure.

i'm not the one deleting my posts to save my butt. the person i am referring to is not dead and will never show his face amongst a hereford crowd again. i guess we'll never be on the same page on this issue. you are sorry i sell bulls to ranchers who consider the genetics a factor... i guess i am proud to provide genetics to those that don't consider the issue mondane. you say the folks that were in the thick of it are still around today - yes they are and they are the ones that never made false claims that it had nothing to do with the hereford bull. the ones that did skipped the country or are breeding angus now or selling insurance. i can never prove it the way someone like you needs it to be proven but there was a time when that is all it took.

 

[Hereford76]

make the arguement then

 

[Brandonm22]

I absolutely assure that I am not a mod, don't have mod powers, don't want mod powers, and the only time I have ever asked a mod to intervene people were threatening real world violence (not against me).

 

[Brandonm22]

i can never prove it the way someone like you needs it to be proven but there was a time when that is all it took.

And the truth is, if you COULD prove it (and you can't) I really would not care even the slightest bit. Breeders in their quest to breed "better" (whatever that means to them at the time) animals "cheat'. They always have, plus there are breeding and record keeping "errors" that naturally creep into the record keeping process. That is why we spend goo gobs of money on DNA testing now and I think every year we still find some parentage errors. How many people were "cheating" in the Hereford and Angus breeds then is open to speculation. It is quite possible that both breeds may have even benefited from such efforts and survives to this day as strong as they are because of it. I am not comfortable with tossing stones at the character of the men who went before me or questioning their actions or their motives. The purpose of any cattle breed is to improve the product on the table of our consumers and in the pastures of commercial cattlemen and I don't see how chasing the ghosts of 1972 accomplishes either objective.

 

[smnherf]

I dont think one can ignore the ghosts of the past either. Even if they are from 1972. I grew up with horned herefords and we went through the diluter thing and the hairless calf thing too although in a commercial setting. We just bred the cows black and lived with the gray calves as we finished everything out anyway. They are genetic defects that need to be purged from the breed. Just like IE is today. Only thing is we have a better tool box to get rid of them today than we did back in the 80s and 90s. I have no respect for those that hid the diluter gene nor do I have any respect for those that hid the IE from becoming public.

The diluter thing isn't something to just ignore either. The main storm has blown over, but they are still out there. If it is ignored, it could come back again. I saw one the other day from a customer who uses some horned bulls. A former breed rep had told the commercial breeder to just sell the bull and go back and buy another one at this years sale. That was after he had arranged for the purchase of all the bwf steers. He left the gray one on the place though. The gray calves won't qualify for the CAB program nor the CHB program. If they go through the sale barn, they will be discounted.

Brian

 

[Northern Rancher]

I just assumed the grey calves i got from a ABS hereford bull was just their simmy F1 project.

 

[Herefords.US]

I even been told by someone on this very board that the goal was to breed their Herefords to be more like Angus. ;-)

Dang, rocket, I'm going to have to be much more selective in what I say to you! :lol2:

George

 

[Brandonm22]

The ironic thing is that IE came from likely the purest line of Herefords that we know of and Nick the Butler was a pretty noncontroversial Polled Hereford (I am sure someone has a story somebody told them, but I missed it) until the HY thing surfaced. Then for years I had understood that that defect likely began with him (as 15G doesn't have it) so if you had no Nick the Butler in the pedigree you didn't have to worry about HY. Then we started this discussion and I looked back at the carrier list and found out that FHR Genetic Giant (1967) (that finally explains Feltons 468) and RWJ VICTOR J3 212 (1971) were both confirmed carriers. There is no telling how far back some of these things go which makes one really wonder. The diluter gene (and around here smokes sell pretty good) is the only KNOWN Hereford defect that likely came from outside the breed.....and even that is not a given.

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... B8CEC5F98C

 

[Hereford76]

i would like to appologize to the boards for not being more selective in my comments also.

 

[Northern Rancher]

????????

 

[alftn]

I wonder how much money was made on seman sales and offsprings????

I wonder how much would have been made if it was known this bull was a crossbreed???

I thought , unlike simms, limms, shorthorns,etc. , HERDFORDS have a close herd book, no non-full bloods reg. allowed ???

 

[Brandonm22]

I wonder how much money was made on seman sales and offsprings????

Free market capitalism at it's finest.

I thought , unlike simms, limms, shorthorns,etc. , HERDFORDS have a close herd book, no non-full bloods reg. allowed ???

IF Hereford had an open herd book they could have just imported the entire Simmental breed and given them Hereford registration papers (sort of like Shorthorn did with the Maine Anjous) and then registered a bunch of moderate framed long haired solid black cattle (like Simmental did) and blamed it all on the breeding up process. Hereford has a closed herd book which is why we CAN argue at length about trivialities like a popular sire's great great great great grandsire.

 

[rocket2222]

I even been told by someone on this very board that the goal was to breed their Herefords to be more like Angus. ;-)

Dang, rocket, I'm going to have to be much more selective in what I say to you! :lol2:

George

:lol: Wasn't sure you would remember that, seems like it was a good while back. I remember thinking, "why is he telling me that, I'll blow it off with some dumb answer, and save that little snippet for future use." :lol: