Hereford question

[Frankie]

Real question, how does linebreeding naturally eliminate genetic defects.

Linebreeding doesn't naturally eliminate genetic defects. In theory, breeding closely related cattle to each other (linebreeding) will produce calves with genetic defects quickly, as opposed to the defect being masked for generations by not breeding to other carriers. In theory again, the breeder will notify the breed association about the defect, cull all the animals, and the defect will not be spread throughout the breed.

 

[Idaman]

Hereford.US- The earliest certificates I could find were 1905 which I will post if you wish and I learn how.

 

[smnherf]

Knersie. The Anxiety 4ths are an amazing family. The current Line One cattle from Miles City were originally purchased from Fred DeBerard from Kremmling, Colorado and they were called Advance Dominos at that time. They were Domino descendants and Fred was one of the first linebreeders in this country. They linebred them back then not for any other reason than to get a predictable offspring since the original Hereford imports were pretty diverse. The rest of the Line One story is history.

The Line One legacy is another advantage that horned Herefords have over all other breeds because of the result of line and in breeding in the natural elimination of genetic defects. Look at the Angus breed today with AM and NH running rampant. The polled Herefords have their IE etc. Through dwarfism and all the other catastrophes the Line One line has proven clear and clean. I checked several years ago and at that time they were in their 64th generation without any defects. They must surely be in their 70s generations by now.


Name me one other breed with this record and I will use their bulls. The Ft. Lewis lines in Colorado a division of CSU started a line breeding program like Miles City but all of their lines failed. The Royals, I believe, lasted four generations until the fifth generation when the bulls were born with no testicles. This is what Line One is all about.

I agree, most all of todays Hereford cattle go back to Anxiety 4th cattle even most of the polled cattle do.

I am not so sure of the L1 legacy. They had their problems too during the 80s and 90s. What about IE, if that would have happened 20 years ago before DNA technology became available, it probably would have done them in too, at least set them back many many years. I am not holding it against the Line ones. Genetic problems can and will occur in any line of cattle.

I am not that familiar with the lines in CSU, but can you really say for certain that the line failed or did the breeders fail the line by not selecting for the right traits or having enough patience or deep enough pockets to keep building on the line even in times when the market was working against them. I think their was a lot of good hereford cattle that got crossbred by smaller breeders that couldn't market offspring so they quit the purebred business.

As far as the horned polled debate that rages on all I am going to say is to buy bulls from outfits that run their cows like you do or harder than you do. In other words buy bulls that are adapted to your area. So if you run a low input operation, don't go buy your bulls from an outfit that runs their cows on irrigated pasture or if your trying to moderate your cowherd, don't buy bulls out of 1800 lb cows even if they appear to be moderate framed. I know their are some polled breeders that aren't focusing on the commercial sector, but I could tell you horror stories of what some of the large horned breeders have done over the years. Airing their dirty laundry won't do them any good, me any good or the breed any good.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Knersie-

Airing their dirty laundry won't do them any good, me any good or the breed any good.

You are correct my friend! All the more jusification for new breeders just investigating the possibilities of "getting into the business" to investigate, learn, study, and ask someone more knowledgeable than themselves to give some guidance before spending a bunch of cash and TIME.

DOC HARRIS

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie- My birth 1940, fathers 1909, grandfathers prior to 1875 but don't know the year.

Well then the math might just add up, even though your grandfather was just a teenager at the time. I stand corrected and apologise.

I don't think I said that the Line Ones were a seperate breed but you may have interpreted it that way

This is what you said...

"Name me one other breed with this record and I will use their bulls"

They are a horned Hereford line through and through. I was unaware that EI was in any of them.

That is where IE was first identified. The fact that IE was found in L1s won't put me off from using IE free L1s at all, I merely pointed that out because you claimed it to be a poll problem which it certainly is not.

I don't know that the early breeders practiced linebreeding to gain uniformity because I was not there at the time.

I've read that the initial main goal with the L1 experiment was to increase WW.

But from what my early mentors told me that was the case. One of those mentors knew and learned from Fred Deberard who bred the cattle that were the foundation of the Line Ones. Miles city originally selected the Deberard Advance Dominos because they had been line bred up to that point and hadn't broken down genetically. I went back into some of our old pedigrees dating to 1906 and they have Anxiety 4th in them. There was also one share in the American Hereford Breeders Association of Kansas, City Missouri, an Arizona Corporation, share No. 4118, issued to my great grandfather. One of the cows they had at that time was Bonnie 48640 whose mother sold for $1875 and whose great grandfather sold for $18000 (Lord Wilton 5739). Another was Carla 239672 by Weston Stamp 76073 who was imported after being the Lancaster Champion in England, also in there was The Grove 3rd who sold for $7000 at ten years of age. Anxiety the 4ths sire, I believe was also in there. One cow back in the pedigree of Bonnie, Water Lily 4th shows only blanks where her ancestors would be. Tom Beau Monde 71126 was linebred to Anxiety 4th through
Wild Tom 51592 and his sire Beau Real 11055 and then to Anxiety 4th. Tom Beau Monde's mother Beau Monde also had the sire Anxiety 4th.

If your grandfather had access to this wealth of genetic material why did your family convert to L1s instead of continuing with your own lines?

Also what "breed" or actually "line" of Herefords wouldn't you use.

Jim Lents's cattle. I have no problem with the fact that they are linebred for 120+ years, nor with what they are supposed to be able to do. I love the sentimental and novelty value of them, you can fill in the rest....

Ferry Carpenter told me one time that he had fused a line of milking Herefords into his herd in the early days.

Then he adressed an issue early on in his herd that became a major marketing point for other breeds. If I knew then what I know now I would have paid much closer attention to the milking ability of my initial purchases.

 

[Idaman]

Knersie- I have no argumemt with any of your observations. My family did not and has not converted to Line 1s.
We did, however use an allful lot of the Deberard breeding through another herd that linebred the Advance Dominos for many years and is still somewhat intact, although now heavily infused with Line 1.

 

[Idaman]

Hereford.US - Since you obviously have a lot ot historical knowledge and are from central Texas I have a question for you. Did you ever hear of a Hereford breeder from Menard by the name of Carl Martin. He had a herd of heavily Anxiety 4th line bred cattle in the 70's. I am sure Carl is gone but his daughter was still on the ranch last I heard. I used a lot of his breeding in the 70's and still value those lines in my herd. We were put onto him by a CSU prof.

 

[Idaman]

Doc Harris - I hope you aren't one of my former profs at CSU.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc Harris - I hope you aren't one of my former profs at CSU.

No, I'm not. Read my CattleToday profile.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Herefords.US]

Hereford.US - Since you obviously have a lot ot historical knowledge and are from central Texas I have a question for you. Did you ever hear of a Hereford breeder from Menard by the name of Carl Martin. He had a herd of heavily Anxiety 4th line bred cattle in the 70's. I am sure Carl is gone but his daughter was still on the ranch last I heard. I used a lot of his breeding in the 70's and still value those lines in my herd. We were put onto him by a CSU prof.

Idaman, any speculation here at CT that you might be a troll can now be put to rest!

Carl Martin would be a name that very few people involved with Herefords today would recognize. In fact, I would say he was almost unknown to most folks on a national level back in the 70s! He had Anxiety 4th influenced cattle - Lamplighter, Blanchard and Mischief Return, although I'm not sure his cattle would "certify" as being total descendants from the Gudgell and Simpson herd. I don't think he was a member of the National Anxiety 4th Breeders Association. Because my father's focus and interest was in the CERTIFIED Anxiety 4th bloodline cattle at that time, I cannot recall ever actually seeing any of Carl Martin's cattle -although I probably did. I think he had been a Hereford breeder for 20-25 years by 1970 and he was using his own bulls in his herd, so he must have been doing some linebreeding.

Most of my "historical knowledge" comes from the period of 1960 to 1985, Idaman, when I was actively involved with Hereford cattle. I got out of the cattle business in 1985 and didn't personally own any Hereford cattle until 2002 when I purchased the first foundation females for my present herd. My father was still in business during much of that period between 1985 and 2002, but he had straightbred Anxiety 4th cattle, which were totally out of favor, and almost disappeared during that time. Truthfully, my Dad's hardheadedness and commitment to the Anxiety 4th bloodline was what caused me to dissolve my partnership with him and get out of the cattle business in 1985. Looking back now, I realize that I was "young and stupid". I really wanted to chase the Line 1 and increasing frame and weight fad - and I truly didn't fully appreciate the cattle we had. One thing I've discovered since returning to the business and buying into the Hereford breed's "latest and greatest" is that those old Anxiety 4th cattle we had back then were pretty darn good....and the best of them were the ones that were the most tightly linebred.

From your posts here, I'd say your "historical knowledge" of Hereford cattle is also better than what it is on the current trends of the breed! I'm very interested in your experiences, particularly interested in anything you could provide regarding Ferry Carpenter and his cattle.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

particularly interested in anything you could provide regarding Ferry Carpenter and his cattle.

I second that.

I was very sceptical after your first post, in hindsight it probably wasn't the best introduction ever, but I'll be first to admit I was wrong and I am genuinely interested in learning more about your herd.

 

[Idaman]

Gentlemen - Ferrington Carpenter was born in Chicago around 1900. His father owned a large shoe manufacturing company in Chicago. Ferry went to school and was educated to be a lawyer but his father wanted him to return home and sell shoes. Ferry refused but talked his father into buying him a ranch on the Yampa river near Hayden Colorado. That ranch is still in the family and I think Ferrys' daughters run the place probably under the management of Merlin Williams. I believe Ferry left the cattle to Williams and the ranch to his daughters. Ferry was later appointed to be the first BLM director for the entire USA. Ferry was a maverick in every sense of the word. He was viewed with disdain by the AHA and most of the Colorado purebred breeders of the time.

The Carpenter cattle were unique in their breeding. I never could figure out from his naming system just what they were. For the time they were very large framed, somewhat coarse, and not very uniform in anything but size. Their colors and hair coats were very diverse for a linebred herd. I went there several times to try to find a bull that might work for me but I just couldn't bring myself to the point of finding one that I could use. They were certainly more paddock cattle and never saw the range or a day of even the slightest bit of hunger. They became fairly popular later when their size was valued. In type they reminded me of the Ochs Bros. herd at Gunnison, Colo. that came from the Jim Hole herd from Calgary.
I had a neighbor who used nothing but Hole bulls but his cattle were anything but big. Go figure.

Ferry always wore a suit and I never saw him in anything but street shoes and that dark suit. Even around his cattle.

I will try to answer any questions about Ferry but remember this is from 40 years ago. At that time I spent several days with him and we traveled and he talked which I certainly encouraged.

 

[rocket2222]

Rocket 2222- Eliminating genetic defects by line breeding is genetics 101. Read again my earlier post about the CSU Royal line losing all their testicles in the 5th generation. I would say that that is one defect that got eliminated wouldn't you

It was a "tongue in cheek" question, line breeding identifies genetic defects if they exist. It doesn't eliminate them, that's up to the breeder, through the selection process.

 

[rocket2222]

"For the time they were very large framed, somewhat coarse, and not very uniform in anything but size. Their colors and hair coats were very diverse for a linebred herd."
" Ferry always wore a suit and I never saw him in anything but street shoes and that dark suit. Even around his cattle."


Not sure that what the linebreeders wanted to hear. :shock:

BTW :welcome:

 

[WichitaLineMan]

I would suggest that anyone wanting to learn about Ferry Carpenter start by reading his autobiography: Confessions of a Maverick.

It seemed a little different than the second hand account we are getting here.

Readily available on Amazon.

 

[Idaman]

I would suggest that anyone wanting to learn about Ferry Carpenter start by reading his autobiography: Confessions of a Maverick.

It seemed a little different than the second hand account we are getting here.

Readily available on Amazon.

You have to remember that my visits with Ferry were about 40 years ago and I have not read his autobiogyaphy. He truly was a maverick which I stated. Also my observations of the acceptance of him by his peers at the time is right on and that added to his maverickness. If you don't want to hear the observations of a friend of his and neighbor then clearly state that.

 

[Herefords.US]

I would suggest that anyone wanting to learn about Ferry Carpenter start by reading his autobiography: Confessions of a Maverick.

It seemed a little different than the second hand account we are getting here.

Readily available on Amazon.

You have to remember that my visits with Ferry were about 40 years ago and I have not read his autobiogyaphy. He truly was a maverick which I stated. Also my observations of the acceptance of him by his peers at the time is right on and that added to his maverickness. If you don't want to hear the observations of a friend of his and neighbor then clearly state that.

I have read Confessions of a Maverick - twice! And I have recommended it to others to read!

But I still would like to hear comments from someone who actually knew Ferry Carpenter.... and, most of all, someone who saw his cattle and knew something about them.

I'd bet that others, who know me, would have a different perspective than what I'd record if I wrote my own memoirs. No doubt how we see ourselves - and how others see us - will vary.

George

 

[Herefords.US]

The Carpenter cattle were unique in their breeding. I never could figure out from his naming system just what they were. For the time they were very large framed, somewhat coarse, and not very uniform in anything but size. Their colors and hair coats were very diverse for a linebred herd. I went there several times to try to find a bull that might work for me but I just couldn't bring myself to the point of finding one that I could use. They were certainly more paddock cattle and never saw the range or a day of even the slightest bit of hunger. They became fairly popular later when their size was valued. In type they reminded me of the Ochs Bros. herd at Gunnison, Colo. that came from the Jim Hole herd from Calgary.
I had a neighbor who used nothing but Hole bulls but his cattle were anything but big. Go figure.

I went to an Ochs sale in the early 90s - quite an event! Some of the most massive and impressive Herefords I've ever seen! They seemed to do really well in those high mountain valleys, but the few that I've seen taken out of that environment haven't fared so well in other places.

Idaman, Knersie started a thread asking you about your cattle, experiences, etc. You've got a decade on me in age - but that was an important decade in Hereford history - dwarfism - the comprests - etc. All that was pretty much old history by the time I got involved with Herefords in the early 60's. I hope you will share your recollections...and opinions!

George

 

[Idaman]

Hereford.US - Will do, maybe tomorrow after we feed.

 

[vontrapp1]

This thread has gone on for some time. But I am new to this forum and despite age and the fact that the conversation has moved on I would like to return to the original question and chime in.
Let me first say I think everyone has the right to raise whatever breed or type of cattle they want. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever opinion they hold so if you like what you have then great. However I think the question to which is better Horned or Polled Herefords and the age old issue of the animosity for breeders of the two breeds comes down to intelectual dishonesty. It is possible for any breed of cattle in the show ring to appear to be excellent in fit and form. Function is proven through years of trial out on the range, ranch or farm. When you are a breeder of a breed that you truely love you owe it to your breed to try and breed the best animals you have. Additionally if you believe in your breed there comes a point in time when the breed has to stand on its own and does not need to be blended with any other genetics to improve it. If the belief is that simply breeding the horns off an animal is a true improvement in beef quality then fine you have now modified the genetic makeup of the breed and you move on from there. However the Hereford breed was horned from the start and at the point of time when the polled breed came into being the breed was already 100 years old or more. Every living then on earth has a specific genetic code. And there is pretty much infinite number of ways these genes can line up sometime the genes align in a way that is beneficial and sometimes not so good. When it comes to domesticated animals it is in the interest of the breeder or farmer whatever that they breed not only true but predictably uniform for all the desirable traits that they are after. If you have been breeding true for 100 years and you suddenly on a wild whim decide to insert some new genetics into you breed or herd you are have basically taken a step back genetically. That is where the intelectual dishonesty comes in. People believe that the two breeds are the same but they are not. They are related but not the same. However, with the merger of the two associations it has allowed the free interbreeding of the two breeds and still allowing registration. This means for the pure horned breeders there is no a fly in the oinment in many of todays herds. One those genes are in you herd you will never get them out. You can slowly breed for purity but you will never get it out it will always be there. People need to be honest with themselves and understand that. The truth of the matter is there are very few true "breeders" out there that understand this. There are far fewer breeders that won't sell there breed up river for a short term gain.

Best regards to all.