Hereford question

[Herefords.US]

This thread has gone on for some time. But I am new to this forum and despite age and the fact that the conversation has moved on I would like to return to the original question and chime in.
Let me first say I think everyone has the right to raise whatever breed or type of cattle they want. Everyone is entitled to hold whatever opinion they hold so if you like what you have then great. However I think the question to which is better Horned or Polled Herefords and the age old issue of the animosity for breeders of the two breeds comes down to intelectual dishonesty. It is possible for any breed of cattle in the show ring to appear to be excellent in fit and form. Function is proven through years of trial out on the range, ranch or farm. When you are a breeder of a breed that you truely love you owe it to your breed to try and breed the best animals you have. Additionally if you believe in your breed there comes a point in time when the breed has to stand on its own and does not need to be blended with any other genetics to improve it. If the belief is that simply breeding the horns off an animal is a true improvement in beef quality then fine you have now modified the genetic makeup of the breed and you move on from there. However the Hereford breed was horned from the start and at the point of time when the polled breed came into being the breed was already 100 years old or more. Every living then on earth has a specific genetic code. And there is pretty much infinite number of ways these genes can line up sometime the genes align in a way that is beneficial and sometimes not so good. When it comes to domesticated animals it is in the interest of the breeder or farmer whatever that they breed not only true but predictably uniform for all the desirable traits that they are after. If you have been breeding true for 100 years and you suddenly on a wild whim decide to insert some new genetics into you breed or herd you are have basically taken a step back genetically. That is where the intelectual dishonesty comes in. People believe that the two breeds are the same but they are not. They are related but not the same. However, with the merger of the two associations it has allowed the free interbreeding of the two breeds and still allowing registration. This means for the pure horned breeders there is no a fly in the oinment in many of todays herds. One those genes are in you herd you will never get them out. You can slowly breed for purity but you will never get it out it will always be there. People need to be honest with themselves and understand that. The truth of the matter is there are very few true "breeders" out there that understand this. There are far fewer breeders that won't sell there breed up river for a short term gain.

Best regards to all.

Interesting perspective - and not unlike some that I've heard from long time horned Hereford breeders. And I know a few Polled Hereford breeders who feel the exact same way about THEIR breed -and think there shouldn't be any scurs - much less horns - present. Listening to some in each camp, you wonder how they managed to get the two associations together.

The HOLE in your argument is that Polled Hereford cattle were ALWAYS eligible to be registered in the American Hereford Assn - even before the recent merger. I've got old issues of Hereford Journals from throughout the 20th century that contain ads for Polled Herefords that were registered with the AHA.

No doubt, breed purity is a BIG DEAL to a lot(most??) of Hereford breeders!

But any logical thinker should KNOW that the breed's purity has been compromised in the past - and some of those "less than pure" Hereford animals have had their genes distributed pretty widely into the registered Hereford population, both horned and polled. So there's been "a fly in the ointment" for quite a while longer than the two associations have been merged together! Perhaps it is intellectual dishonesty - if you want to deny that as "fact"!

I don't think it is intellectual dishonesty, but pragmatism, to just accept that fact - then move forward with whatever kind of breeding program you choose to pursue. I bought the foundation cattle for my present herd in 2002 - not much I can do about what happened prior to that. I can only take my cattle and "build" from there.

A respected long time horned Hereford breeder told me a few years ago that the Hereford breed is STILL the "purest" breed of all. And he's probably right!

Now, if you ABSOLUTELY demand "pure" Herefords, you probably need to go to see Jim Lents in Oklahoma - because that possibly could be the only place left where you might find some! :tiphat:

George

 

[Hereford76]

You guys talking about Carpenter/Williams cattle.... a few years ago an older fella from somewhere in washington had phoned about cattle and we got to visiting. he said that he had bought something like 60 of those cows at auction. he got a tank full of king ten semen they had too and said he got tired of paying storage and dumped it the year before i ended up talking to him. he also said that alot of those cattle died from the change in environment which surprised me.... i can't remeber now if he still has much or any of those cattle.

 

[Idaman]

The change in environment would be a valid concern. After working next door to the Carpenter herd for several years the garden of Eden would have been be a step down.

 

[farmguy]

"A neighbor here has the nicest looking straight Herefords in the county and they are polled. They are absolutely paddock cattle, fed 9 mos. per year when we cry that 1/2 of our cows have to be fed 2 mos. and the other 1/2 never. Last year they had a 50% preg rate and yet they baby those cows 365. They have to finish those cattle over 1500 miles away because the take such a beating locally pricewise.
For the above reasons you could not give me a polled Hereford if I had to use him."

As the author of this column I was surprised to see it resurface and I still don't understand this issue.
But how can anyone post such as this quote and infer that all of a breed or rather part of a breed can have such traits. If the author had not laid this on the whole polled hereford portion of the breed but stated he did not like his neighbor's cattle it would have been not so childish. It would seem that this individual for what ever reason cannot market or promote his favorite by their own merits but to demean his competition. Idaman it's time to get a life. Why this ridiculous rant? As I stated in my area, Minnesota, I have never seen a horned bull of any breed. But I have seen bulls advertised that were Horned Herefords I truly admired but I passed on account of the lack of demand for horned cattle. Farmguy

 

[JHH]

"A neighbor here has the nicest looking straight Herefords in the county and they are polled. They are absolutely paddock cattle, fed 9 mos. per year when we cry that 1/2 of our cows have to be fed 2 mos. and the other 1/2 never. Last year they had a 50% preg rate and yet they baby those cows 365. They have to finish those cattle over 1500 miles away because the take such a beating locally pricewise.
For the above reasons you could not give me a polled Hereford if I had to use him."

As the author of this column I was surprised to see it resurface and I still don't understand this issue.
But how can anyone post such as this quote and infer that all of a breed or rather part of a breed can have such traits. If the author had not laid this on the whole polled hereford portion of the breed but stated he did not like his neighbor's cattle it would have been not so childish. It would seem that this individual for what ever reason cannot market or promote his favorite by their own merits but to demean his competition. Idaman it's time to get a life. Why this ridiculous rant? As I stated in my area, Minnesota, I have never seen a horned bull of any breed. But I have seen bulls advertised that were Horned Herefords I truly admired but I passed on account of the lack of demand for horned cattle. Farmguy

Maybe you should get out more. I think there are several horned breeders in minnesota.

 

[alexfarms]

"For the time they were very large framed, somewhat coarse, and not very uniform in anything but size. Their colors and hair coats were very diverse for a linebred herd."
" Ferry always wore a suit and I never saw him in anything but street shoes and that dark suit. Even around his cattle."


Not sure that what the linebreeders wanted to hear. :shock:

BTW :welcome:

I do own a suit, but I have never worn it around my cattle. As for the phenotypic diversity in the linebred cattle, if you don't select for uniformity, then you won't get it. It may be that Mr Carpenter valued phenotypic diversity or didn't select for uniformity. I think there is an advantage to lowering inbreeding coefficients or selectingfor the least possible increase in inbreeding coefficients. I think successfull linebreeding programs have practiced keeping inbreeding to a minimum within the line they are working with in order to utilize a greater amount of the genetics within the line. This may account for some phenotypic diversity in less important traits, those traits other than funcional traits.

 

[Idaman]

farmguy - As I have also stated before that if what you are breeding works in your area and provide nearly 100% of your income then by all means continue with that breed and program. If, however, they don't provide that much of your income then they and the program haven't been tested.

We as a family do depend on our cattle for 90% of our income and have done so for 156 years. Besides the observation of one neighbor with polleds we have witnessed dozens of others. I have also purchased quite a number of horned Hereford cows that were bred to polled bulls so I know how that worked out. We have no need to promote our cattle because we are a commercial operation on the open range that produces bulls for themselves and no one else.

 

[Hereford76]

probably unecessary.... but i think you are way off the mark with your last post farmguy.

 

[Idaman]

alexfarms - what you say is absolutely correct but the larger operator that sells hundreds of calves should, and most do, really emphasize uniformity of phenotype because that is one of the biggest premiums at the sale (barn or video). So most select their bulls to be uniform in phenotype. Even look at the carload sales in Denver.

 

[alexfarms]

alexfarms - what you say is absolutely correct but the larger operator that sells hundreds of calves should, and most do, really emphasize uniformity of phenotype because that is one of the biggest premiums at the sale (barn or video). So most select their bulls to be uniform in phenotype. Even look at the carload sales in Denver.

No, unfortunately, I have not seen the Denver show. Someday, I hope.

 

[KNERSIE]

probably unecessary.... but i think you are way off the mark with your last post farmguy.

Ace, although I agree, there were some very valid points made, I'll quote them...

But how can anyone post such as this quote and infer that all of a breed or rather part of a breed can have such traits. If the author had not laid this on the whole polled hereford portion of the breed but stated he did not like his neighbor's cattle it would have been not so childish. It would seem that this individual for what ever reason cannot market or promote his favorite by their own merits but to demean his competition

Forget about how our friendship started or even Idaman's introduction, but when looking at the bigger picture, this is exactly how I feel as a poll breeder when this debate resurfaces. What adds fuel to the fire is when someone who continually post photos of obviously inferior horned animals start making these claims.

While horned herefords might very well be superior in you neck of the woods, it certainly isn't the case universally. Maybe it would be better if you say that in your neck of the woods the breeders of horned herefords are of a better quality than the breeders of poll herefords.

BTW I have experience with both, but I chose to breed what I can sell, because I have to make money in the meantime. There are horned herds that will fill my needs very nicely if there was a demand for horned bulls here, but then I've been known to swim upstream anyway, unfortunately there are many more horned breeders here that use bulls from the herds I've mentioned who claims superiority because of horns, whose bulls I wouldn't use if they were free. In the end it all comes down to what the breeder makes with the genetics at his disposal.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

I was not Mr. Carpenter's neighbor, but I believe he linebred and his selection criteria was mostly WDA.

 

[Idaman]

He did both. As you say. My only two complaints with them were their lack of uniformity in phenotype and the production abilities of the ranch they were raised on. No more productive any where.

 

[Herefords.US]

He did both. As you say. My only two complaints with them were their lack of uniformity in phenotype and the production abilities of the ranch they were raised on. No more productive any where.

Sounds like Ferry Carpenter must have been a great judge of land! Or fortunate!

Probably both.

George

 

[Hereford76]

probably unecessary.... but i think you are way off the mark with your last post farmguy.

Ace, although I agree, there were some very valid points made, I'll quote them...

But how can anyone post such as this quote and infer that all of a breed or rather part of a breed can have such traits. If the author had not laid this on the whole polled hereford portion of the breed but stated he did not like his neighbor's cattle it would have been not so childish. It would seem that this individual for what ever reason cannot market or promote his favorite by their own merits but to demean his competition

I wasn't talking about these valid points.... farmguy asks a question he "says" he can't understand. well, idaman gave his opinions and reasons and assumes he is childish and for some reason is putting down polled cattle to demean his competition???? Idaman gave valid reasons too. If you ask me farmguy understands the debate completely and he is the one stirring up the pot. Farmguy.... maybe farmer cattle too.

when you first responded to idaman's post with OFFS here we go again - i laughed and wanted to say give him a chance Knersie as you never know where it might go or lead to. i just hope no one chases idaman away!

 

[Northern Rancher]

Running cattle in tough country imposes a whole new set of rules-a few people can't seem to grasp this lol.

 

[3waycross]

Running cattle in tough country imposes a whole new set of rules-a few people can't seem to grasp this lol.

I don't have much of a dog in this fight but I will sure second this statement.

In the mid 60's we bought Registered Horned Herefords from a ranch that was running them in belly deep grass at 7500ft and trucked them down to the shortgrass prarie in SE Colorado. When we unloaded them they waddled off those trucks. 2yrs later, when viewed from the front the looked like a fence post with a set of horns nailed to it.

As with some other things it turned out they were mostly water and not capable or willing to walk a few miles a day for their supper.

 

[Herefords.US]

Running cattle in tough country imposes a whole new set of rules-a few people can't seem to grasp this lol.

Conversely, just because cattle have had it easy doesn't necessarily mean that they possess absolutely no qualities that are useful in tough country ...or that they will fail in that environment. They may just need to be tested.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

Why do Montana and Canada have the exclusive right to bragg about a tough environment?

I wish mine were easy... :nod:

 

[Northern Rancher]

One word WINTER!!!! From your pics I don't think I've seen anything matches up with -50 and a wind. Your droughts are more severe than ours but we still have them. For guys running in tough country your better off running bulls raised in similar country. Cattle raised in kinder gentler conditions can be used in those same ones. Watching genetics melt down isn't my favorite spectator sport.