New Hereford Calves

[Ky hills]

Ken - @wbvs58 - we are not talking the same ANGUS cattle. You have good Angus cattle from all your pictures I have seen. There are a few Angus herds out here that have GOOD Angus cattle. But, the majority of Angus breeders are chasing MARBLING & $$ indexes. I have never seen so many poorly muscled, deer footed, pencil thin legs as I have seen this past few years. I can pretty much guarantee anyone that YOU LOOK at your cattle when you make breeding decisions.
I look at the numbers, but only after the phenotype fits what I need for my cows. And I never look at marbling. My main numbers are CE, WW, YW, MCE, REA.

Agree 100%, I've tried to explain that difference on here before.
He along with several other contributors on here have sone fine herds of Angus cattle. I really like the look of Ken's and Jscunns Angus especially, both herds look like the type and kind I would love to have.
I've been saying for a long time that a lot of Angus breeders are more like multipliers in that they breed to a the highly promoted bulls, which generally have the numbers and or prefix that's hot at the time.
The cattle are assumed to be good and superior because of the prefix and numbers and people don't always select for feet/legs, fertility, disposition etc.
I'm speaking from experience when I say a lot of those cattle have not held up for us, and in conversations with other breeders I've been told of similar frustrations with the breed.
I know and believe that other folks have done well with Angus, my thinking is that they probably started out with a stronger base cowherd than I was able to put together. My small herd of registered Angus from several different breeders had the pedigrees, but not always the quality that is promoted.
I believe a lot of the problem with Angus has been the emphasis on carcass and other terminal traits.
I have t kept up with the breed for several years but the new thing back then was the $B index, which is from my understanding growth/ terminal focused grouping of several traits.
Logic would say that selection for that is not going to favor the needed cow traits, that cow/calf producers need.
I literally stopped registering calves from a certain cow because of her feet. Hers were not terrible but seemed like whatever bull her calf would be by would have worse feet than her. I finally bred her to a Hereford bull and that calf was a great improvement. I did not expect that outcome to be that much of a difference.
I will be culling out my last 2 registered Angus cows soon as 10 year olds. They were the 2 best at having a calf every year on time. I've always considered them commercial quality cows because of their feet and it's finally gotten to where it's a problem for them. One should have went down the road before last winter.

 

[Dave]

I do find the idea of a breeder being multiplier rather than a breeder interesting. There are two well know breeders near here. They are practically next door neighbors. I don't think the Angus man ever castrates a bull calf. He has multiple bull sales. Not just here several times a year but in other states too. He is AIing to the latest bull. He has a good reputation and I see a fair number of bulls around with his brand on them. The Hereford raising neighbor has a good size bull sale but much smaller than the Angus man. But he also has a fairly large commercial herd where he is testing the genetics he is selling at his bull sale. He is testing in real world conditions on real ranch cows. To me the Hereford man is a breeder. His bulls have been out sell the other guy. The Angus man is a multiplier. One has to wonder how long his reputation will hold.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

I searched for what the CAB premium was worth. January of 2023 it was $5.02 /cwt. So on a 800 pound carcass it is $40.12. If you put that back on 500 pound steers it is a touch over 8 cents a pound. So if an Angus steer is worth $2.00 a pound, a non CAB steer should be worth $1.92. Reality is the spread is much bigger. So why are the buyers not paying more? Other premiums on the grid? Rate of gain and feed conversion in the feedlot? Cab is a factor but certainly not the entire picture.

The red hide discount does exist, when we would take 3/4 Hereford 1/4 Angus calves to the sale barn and they would sell the calves by hide color. The half that were black hided sold for more than the same calves that were red hided. The worst part of the deal is that the discount for having small groups was worse than the red hide discount. I am a contrarian so I decided to go all red. It is nice now because if there is a cow on the road, I can ask what color it is and if it is black I can go back to sleep.
From what I have heard the discount for Hereford calves is greatest at weaning time and goes away as the calves put size on. I believe the ultimate issue is the contraction in the feedlots and packers. There aren't enough buyers to keep things honest.

 

[Dave]

The red hide discount does exist, when we would take 3/4 Hereford 1/4 Angus calves to the sale barn and they would sell the calves by hide color. The half that were black hided sold for more than the same calves that were red hided. The worst part of the deal is that the discount for having small groups was worse than the red hide discount. I am a contrarian so I decided to go all red. It is nice now because if there is a cow on the road, I can ask what color it is and if it is black I can go back to sleep.
From what I have heard the discount for Hereford calves is greatest at weaning time and goes away as the calves put size on. I believe the ultimate issue is the contraction in the feedlots and packers. There aren't enough buyers to keep things honest.

As I have said previously there is a regional difference. They will run in a group of multi colored calves here and they will sell right with all black calves. They will cut out straight Herefords, rat tail Charolais, speckled calves, Longhorn or Correneite crosses, and any dairy cross calves. But even as singles red neck, red, and Char calves sell as good as anything.

 

[Travlr]

They will cut out straight Herefords, rat tail Charolais, speckled calves, Longhorn or Correneite crosses, and any dairy cross calves.

It's always puzzled me how a "rat-tailed" Charolais is cut out and sold separately, bringing less and destined for the feedlot just like all the rest, and gets less money... and once it's on the rail it's the same value as everything else. The same thing with frozen ears and tails. There is no functional difference in the way they will finish and sell as retail meat, but they all take a hit in the sale barn.

Here again, if I was buying for a feedlot they are the kind of calves I would be buying simply because the differential between the price I pay and the value of the calves are greater and I'd be making more money. The quality of the final product being indistinguishable from calves with perfect ears and tails.

And it pretty much goes without saying that an automatic dock due to Hereford or speckled hides without looking at the quality of the animal inside the hide is the same thing.

 

[Dave]

It's always puzzled me how a "rat-tailed" Charolais is cut out and sold separately, bringing less and destined for the feedlot just like all the rest, and gets less money... and once it's on the rail it's the same value as everything else. The same thing with frozen ears and tails. There is no functional difference in the way they will finish and sell as retail meat, but they all take a hit in the sale barn.

Here again, if I was buying for a feedlot they are the kind of calves I would be buying simply because the differential between the price I pay and the value of the calves are greater and I'd be making more money. The quality of the final product being indistinguishable from calves with perfect ears and tails.

And it pretty much goes without saying that an automatic dock due to Hereford or speckled hides without looking at the quality of the animal inside the hide is the same thing.

The rat tails is a genetic thing that comes with some negative genetic issues. Not sure what they are. The frozen ears and tails come along with increased potential health issues from other body functions caused by the freezing early in life. Any possible health issues can and will cause problems in the feedlot. And health problems are probably the number one money loser in the feedlot. Out in a low stress pasture situation they probably do just fine.

 

[Ky hills]

As I have said previously there is a regional difference. They will run in a group of multi colored calves here and they will sell right with all black calves. They will cut out straight Herefords, rat tail Charolais, speckled calves, Longhorn or Correneite crosses, and any dairy cross calves. But even as singles red neck, red, and Char calves sell as good as anything.

Those regional differences have always been interesting to me. Here most of the cattle in the southeast region are bought by order buyers and shipped west with the exception of the few bought to background and run on pasture until bigger then those are shipped west as well.
Here under usual circumstances the Hereford looking calves and white Charolais are docked heavy. Charx, are just a few cents behind black cattle and red necks, solid reds are docked more than Charx but not as much as straight Herefords.
Interesting because if other areas reds and Chars are competitive why the significant dock in other places, if it's not just a set up of the local buyers.
It's been a few months since I've been at any stockyards but when I was going to a few it was a high demand time and a lot less dockage was going on. Saw some straight Herefords get a real good sale in comparison to normal and some solid reds sold right with the black cattle, and usually they are several cents to a dime behind even on better quality reds. Herefords can be as much as 30 cents behind or more.

 

[Travlr]

The rat tails is a genetic thing that comes with some negative genetic issues. Not sure what they are. The frozen ears and tails come along with increased potential health issues from other body functions caused by the freezing early in life. Any possible health issues can and will cause problems in the feedlot. And health problems are probably the number one money loser in the feedlot. Out in a low stress pasture situation they probably do just fine.

Are there any ag schools that have actually studied that? I'd be interested in the numbers.

 

[GoWyo]

I do find the idea of a breeder being multiplier rather than a breeder interesting. There are two well know breeders near here. They are practically next door neighbors. I don't think the Angus man ever castrates a bull calf. He has multiple bull sales. Not just here several times a year but in other states too. He is AIing to the latest bull. He has a good reputation and I see a fair number of bulls around with his brand on them. The Hereford raising neighbor has a good size bull sale but much smaller than the Angus man. But he also has a fairly large commercial herd where he is testing the genetics he is selling at his bull sale. He is testing in real world conditions on real ranch cows. To me the Hereford man is a breeder. His bulls have been out sell the other guy. The Angus man is a multiplier. One has to wonder how long his reputation will hold.

Dave - I think I know who you are talking about. They have a bull sale way over here. Like the Walmart of bulls.

 

[Warren Allison]

Those regional differences have always been interesting to me. Here most of the cattle in the southeast region are bought by order buyers and shipped west with the exception of the few bought to background and run on pasture until bigger then those are shipped west as well.
Here under usual circumstances the Hereford looking calves and white Charolais are docked heavy. Charx, are just a few cents behind black cattle and red necks, solid reds are docked more than Charx but not as much as straight Herefords.
Interesting because if other areas reds and Chars are competitive why the significant dock in other places, if it's not just a set up of the local buyers.
It's been a few months since I've been at any stockyards but when I was going to a few it was a high demand time and a lot less dockage was going on. Saw some straight Herefords get a real good sale in comparison to normal and some solid reds sold right with the black cattle, and usually they are several cents to a dime behind even on better quality reds. Herefords can be as much as 30 cents behind or more.

That is true. AT a midwest sale , people will bring loads of 800-1000 lb steers, Buyers for the packers can get them, put them on a feedlot for while, if at all, Then they go to slaughter. Down here, there are no feedlot or packer buyers. A huge trailer load of calves that a farmer brings to the sale, may be 6 or 8 in a 16 foot stock trailer. Since most people calve year round, and everyone trailer weans when they get in the sweet spot..400-500 lbs, there are more "middle men" with their hands in the pot. A lot of these are bought by people who buy one or two to take home and raise for beef. There are a few people, that buy them, take them home for a few months and feed them, then bring them back. Huge loads, of mayube 10 or 20! LOL. These will be bought by, a lot of times, the sale barn owners. When they eventually accumulate a "pot load" of like size and kind, ,then they will send them to a feed lot. Because there are so many middle men in the picture, they won't waste money on red, white, or any other non-black calves.

 

[Dave]

Dave - I think I know who you are talking about. They have a bull sale way over here. Like the Walmart of bulls.

Yep, I see them advertising a bull sale over there and also in California and maybe Idaho. Funny how on Superior where people will say where their bulls came from I rarely see this guys name mentioned.

Those regional differences have always been interesting to me. Here most of the cattle in the southeast region are bought by order buyers and shipped west with the exception of the few bought to background and run on pasture until bigger then those are shipped west as well.

I don't know why it is for certain. Could be the number of feedlots within a relatively short distance. There are three or four big time cattle feeders with multiple feedlots based in the area plus a number of smaller operations. Could be the amount of cheap by product feed they have available here.

 

[Ky hills]

That is true. AT a midwest sale , people will bring loads of 800-1000 lb steers, Buyers for the packers can get them, put them on a feedlot for while, if at all, Then they go to slaughter. Down here, there are no feedlot or packer buyers. A huge trailer load of calves that a farmer brings to the sale, may be 6 or 8 in a 16 foot stock trailer. Since most people calve year round, and everyone trailer weans when they get in the sweet spot..400-500 lbs, there are more "middle men" with their hands in the pot. A lot of these are bought by people who buy one or two to take home and raise for beef. There are a few people, that buy them, take them home for a few months and feed them, then bring them back. Huge loads, of mayube 10 or 20! LOL. These will be bought by, a lot of times, the sale barn owners. When they eventually accumulate a "pot load" of like size and kind, ,then they will send them to a feed lot. Because there are so many middle men in the picture, they won't waste money on red, white, or any other non-black calves.

I think we are misunderstanding each other, I believe your markets and ours are pretty similar we aren't the Midwest. in we don't have any fat cattle (slaughter cattle markets except for pound cows and bulls. A calf ready for slaughter is going to be docked like crazy here at the stockyards.
Most calves are sold either right off the cow or weaned a couple months. Most are sold in fairly small groups or singles, there are some larger farms that may sell several, or some people buy up those 400-500 or so pound calves and put a group together and run them in grass till 700-800 pounds and take them to market.
So yeah there's a lot of middlemen, in between the farmer and packer.
Some of the people that run the feeder (stocker) cattle will put together groups of 100 or more.
But depending on the run at a yards on a given day there might be 10 calves in a weight class or on a big run 200 head. Sometimes it may take a while and going to several auctions to a group or load together

 

[Warren Allison]

I think we are misunderstanding each other, I believe your markets and ours are pretty similar we aren't the Midwest. in we don't have any fat cattle (slaughter cattle markets except for pound cows and bulls. A calf ready for slaughter is going to be docked like crazy here at the stockyards.
Most calves are sold either right off the cow or weaned a couple months. Most are sold in fairly small groups or singles, there are some larger farms that may sell several, or some people buy up those 400-500 or so pound calves and put a group together and run them in grass till 700-800 pounds and take them to market.
So yeah there's a lot of middlemen, in between the farmer and packer.
Some of the people that run the feeder (stocker) cattle will put together groups of 100 or more.
But depending on the run at a yards on a given day there might be 10 calves in a weight class or on a big run 200 head. Sometimes it may take a while and going to several auctions to a group or load together

True. But I have watched sales in KY online., Some of y'all's do have bigger rings, and do sell groups...something you never see here, unless it is group of Head cows or heifers, and those will usually be 8 or less. And maybe once or twice a year, a barn will have a special sale for weaned, vaccinated, calves already eating feed. I don't know why more people down here don't background them. Those that do, find they don't bring anymore than trailer weaned. And bull calves and steers bring the same amount. Most sales report show heifers of different weight classes, and bulls/steers together in different weight classes.

 

[Dave]

I think we are misunderstanding each other, I believe your markets and ours are pretty similar we aren't the Midwest. in we don't have any fat cattle (slaughter cattle markets except for pound cows and bulls. A calf ready for slaughter is going to be docked like crazy here at the stockyards.
Most calves are sold either right off the cow or weaned a couple months. Most are sold in fairly small groups or singles, there are some larger farms that may sell several, or some people buy up those 400-500 or so pound calves and put a group together and run them in grass till 700-800 pounds and take them to market.
So yeah there's a lot of middlemen, in between the farmer and packer.
Some of the people that run the feeder (stocker) cattle will put together groups of 100 or more.
But depending on the run at a yards on a given day there might be 10 calves in a weight class or on a big run 200 head. Sometimes it may take a while and going to several auctions to a group or load together

Vale sold 717 last week and they are expecting 2,000+ this week. La Grande sold 3,196 last week. They will both run over 2,000 a week well into January. You can buy more than a truck load of most any size or class that you want.

 

[Ky hills]

True. But I have watched sales in KY online., Some of y'all's do have bigger rings, and do sell groups...something you never see here, unless it is group of Head cows or heifers, and those will usually be 8 or less. And maybe once or twice a year, a barn will have a special sale for weaned, vaccinated, calves already eating feed. I don't know why more people down here don't background them. Those that do, find they don't bring anymore than trailer weaned. And bull calves and steers bring the same amount. Most sales report show heifers of different weight classes, and bulls/steers together in different weight classes.

Yes, there are groups of cattle sold here, some larger groups too, but vast majority of people bring in just a few head and a lot of those sell as singles.
From what I understand, Ky has the two largest sales east of the Mississippi.
It started being promoted here probably 20 years or so about weaning and vaccinating calves before selling them.
I participated in the first weaned/vaccinated sale and they brought less than at a regular sale. It's improved since then, but no guarantees that they will sell better. Overall it probably helps the price, but sometimes the market drops between when they are weaned to the time they are ready to sell, that's always aggravating.

 

[Dave]

Here weaned and vaccinated calves always out sell those that aren't. In fact when ones come into the ring and no information is given the buyers stop things to ask for weaning and vaccination information.

 

[Travlr]

Here weaned and vaccinated calves always out sell those that aren't. In fact when ones come into the ring and no information is given the buyers stop things to ask for weaning and vaccination information.

That's kind of like buying a truck and asking how much it gets per gallon and when the oil was changed last.

 

[kenny thomas]

Here weaned and vaccinated calves always out sell those that aren't. In fact when ones come into the ring and no information is given the buyers stop things to ask for weaning and vaccination information.

I read lots of sale reports from within 300 miles of here and most are now mentioning that there is a premium for weaned and vaccinated calves.
They are now also mentioning discounts for off color, or fat bawling calves.

 

[gcreekrch]

Are there any ag schools that have actually studied that? I'd be interested in the numbers.

Not sure at schools would have but the guys who lost money on some of these calves know they don't want to lose again.

 

[M.Magis]

Are there any ag schools that have actually studied that? I'd be interested in the numbers.

The numbers don't matter. ANY possible increase in health issues can cost the feedlots money. As well as any calf doesn't doesn't fit their operation can cost them money. You're only focusing on the end product, but how they get there is what determines a profit or loss for a feedlot.