New Hereford Calves

[Silver]

Here weaned and vaccinated calves always out sell those that aren't. In fact when ones come into the ring and no information is given the buyers stop things to ask for weaning and vaccination information.

That's not a deal here yet. But more buyers are preferring "ranch direct" calves and won't have anything to do with auction mart calves. Therefore ranch direct get a premium.

 

[Travlr]

The numbers don't matter. ANY possible increase in health issues can cost the feedlots money. As well as any calf doesn't doesn't fit their operation can cost them money. You're only focusing on the end product, but how they get there is what determines a profit or loss for a feedlot.

Yeah, I get that people tend to hedge their bets. But sometimes people get unrealistic fears, or they magnify them beyond their realistic values. Surely a calf with frozen ears is not such a large danger that it would justify them being worth a lot less than compared to a calf with ears.

I'm only suggesting that what we might think automatically could be worth a second thought and trying to ferret out the real utility. A small operator that specialized in those kinds of discounted calves might do well.

 

[Ky hills]

I understand the concept of if something is flawed in some way that it might be looked at as less profitable, and there probably is at least anecdotal experiences to back up one's claims.
In reality most of us would choose to feed out a calf with a frozen or missing tail, frozen ears and we'd likely not see any difference at all. It's not real uncommon here to have calves with frozen off ears if born in the cold parts of winter, I've had a few of them over the years. The heifers I've kept back with frostbit ears and in one case a tail switch have made just as good a cows as anything else and lasted just as long.
During that cold snap last winter several of my hens lost parts of their combs to frostbite, they have kept on laying once they started back after their yearly molting process.
I guess I can see where in an extreme case there may be more severe internal damage, from weather related or injuries but I'm figuring most damage is just to outer extremity areas and will heal up quickly without further issues.

 

[Dave]

Well when there is a company that feeds out hundreds of thousands of head a year. And I know and talk to their head buyer who personally probably buys over 100,000 head a year. When he avoids buying something, I think the thing to do is to bow to his (their) experience and avoid the same thing. Is it always 100% right? Probably not. But in the long average I am pretty sure they know what they are doing.

 

[Ky hills]

Well when there is a company that feeds out hundreds of thousands of head a year. And I know and talk to their head buyer who personally probably buys over 100,000 head a year. When he avoids buying something, I think the thing to do is to bow to his (their) experience and avoid the same thing. Is it always 100% right? Probably not. But in the long average I am pretty sure they know what they are doing.

I'm not saying they don't have a reason for the way they do things the way they do. I'm confident that they have had the anecdotal experiences to back it up.
I'm just saying that most other small time folks like myself will often feed out calves with those kinds of blemishes or off color or whatever and it so far has turned out fine each time. Am I confident that it always will? No but it's worked out enough for me that my anecdotal experience says it's worth a try while their's says it's not.

 

[Travlr]

Well when there is a company that feeds out hundreds of thousands of head a year. And I know and talk to their head buyer who personally probably buys over 100,000 head a year. When he avoids buying something, I think the thing to do is to bow to his (their) experience and avoid the same thing. Is it always 100% right? Probably not. But in the long average I am pretty sure they know what they are doing.

Yup, they have a system and it works for them. Not reason to mess with success. But as said, a small operator might find a way to do well by buying the gimps that really don't have anything dangerous wrong with them.

And I've never run a feedlot, but I doubt people beginning in the business will have an easy time competing on the same playing field with the same strategies as the big boys. A little guy needs to look for advantages where they can find them.

Shout out to the forum... has anyone other than @Ky hills had experience feeding out or using as replacements, rat tails or frozen ear/tail animals?

 

[simme]

Rat tail is more than a cosmetic condition of short hair on the tail. It is a genetic defect. Hair probably not right over the rest of the body either - short, curly and sparse. They suffer in the winter months in the feedlots. Causing sickness and less feed efficiency. Sick and low efficiency are not good for profit.

 

[anewcomer]

Folks, why do we think that big feedyards, which have millions of individual records on breed, color, sex, ADG, cost of gain and health of cattle they have fed, and big packers, which have hundreds of millions of individual records on breed, color, sex, quality grade and yield grade on cattle they have slaughtered, don't know what makes money for them and what doesn't? Why are we, on this board, smarter than they are?

 

[Ky hills]

Another anecdotal experience of mine is that 20 some years ago, at the beginning of the Angus resurgence, if I would have had the choice of starting new with a whole new cow herd there would have been no question, I would have said Angus all the way, and I pretty much set out in that direction, with Angus bulls and adding Angus females whenever I could.
Fast forward to today and if I were starting out again knowing what I know now I would go whole hog for Simmental if going registered and if going commercial, Hereford cows and Simmental bulls.
Lots of folks do well with Angus apparently, but my experience wasn't overly impressive.
To the above mentioned rat tails, I have no experience with that so I will definitely defer that to others, but what I can say is that I know it is considered a negative not only in the feedlots but in the bred heifer sales I've seen advertising where the cattle are screened before the sale and no rat tails are permitted in those special sales.

 

[Ky hills]

Folks, why do we think that big feedyards, which have millions of individual records on breed, color, sex, ADG, cost of gain and health of cattle they have fed, and big packers, which have hundreds of millions of individual records on breed, color, sex, quality grade and yield grade on cattle they have slaughtered, don't know what makes money for them and what doesn't? Why are we, on this board, smarter than they are?

The way I see it the packers are going to figure out how to make money, no doubt about that. Feedlot operations know what works for them.
So what I am saying as per the original post is that the type of cattle the packers and feeders want are not always the type of cattle that work the best for cow calf producer.
Those high growth or carcass genetics are often times hard keeping and hard to get bred, let alone the feet and leg issues cut the productive life of cows and bulls.
As cow calf producers we have to find what works for us too and it's a compromise a lot of times to try to get a balance between the cow/calf operation and what the markets want.

 

[Travlr]

Folks, why do we think that big feedyards, which have millions of individual records on breed, color, sex, ADG, cost of gain and health of cattle they have fed, and big packers, which have hundreds of millions of individual records on breed, color, sex, quality grade and yield grade on cattle they have slaughtered, don't know what makes money for them and what doesn't? Why are we, on this board, smarter than they are?

I never knew it was stupid to ask questions and consider new things. Huh... learn something new every day.

Funny how big corporations never, ever change their products because people never, ever modify the things they buy. Very strange how small companies always stay small by doing the very same things the big ones do, and how the big companies never, ever fail.

I guess we should all just know our place and follow what we are told. Thinking is dangerous.

And yeah, this is sarcasm. It's not really meant to be mean as much as to see if people have a sense of humor. So... I guess we'll see, huh?

 

[Ebenezer]

Rat tail is more than a cosmetic condition of short hair on the tail. It is a genetic defect. Hair probably not right over the rest of the body either - short, curly and sparse. They suffer in the winter months in the feedlots. Causing sickness and less feed efficiency. Sick and low efficiency are not good for profit.

Funny that a large Angus herd in SC has a main sire that is an obvious rattail in the catalog pictures. Makes me wonder if they are oblivious or don't care what it will do for buyers.

 

[kenny thomas]

If i remember correctly there can be an issue with the feet on calves with frozen ears. Evidently the tissue in the feet is damaged by freezing also. Even though it doesnt show up when they are young like the ears do, it can give problems when they get heavy and almost finished.

 

[Silver]

They worry about joint damage and lung damage when they see badly frozen ears. But mostly they worry there isn't enough ear to give implants.

 

[Dave]

For the ones that I am going to eat I try to find a 800 pound heifer with a bad knee. Get them real cheap. The feedlots don't want them because of the knee. Too small for much interest from the kill cow buyers. I put them in a small pen where it is a short walk to feed or water. Works real good for one to eat. But I sure wouldn't want to put 100 of them on feed and have it come out.

 

[M.Magis]

Yeah, I get that people tend to hedge their bets. But sometimes people get unrealistic fears, or they magnify them beyond their realistic values. Surely a calf with frozen ears is not such a large danger that it would justify them being worth a lot less than compared to a calf with ears.

I'm only suggesting that what we might think automatically could be worth a second thought and trying to ferret out the real utility. A small operator that specialized in those kinds of discounted calves might do well.

There are smaller feeders that do well with them. But its just simple math. When there are less people bidding on certain caves, those calves simply don't bring the same price as the "better" ones. Its not a conspiracy, just supply and demand. If you go to a bull auction and one bull is missing a tail or ear or something, its a given that he'll sell for less than the other bulls. Even though he can still do the job.

 

[Ebenezer]

They worry about joint damage and lung damage when they see badly frozen ears. But mostly they worry there isn't enough ear to give implants.

I remember the concern on the lungs.

 

[Ky hills]

I remember some years ago, we went to the Bob Evans Charolais dispersal.
They sold a bull by a popular AI sire at the time 20/20, the bull had been born during a cold spell and had frozen ears, they name him 20 Below, don't remember what he brought but like everything else at the sale he sold pretty well.
To clear the air, here, I am not advocating whatsoever that cattle with blemishes are totally equal to others, I think we got off track a bit from Herefords to crippled and frostbit ears.
To clarify, my statements about feeding out cattle especially those with frozen ears etc, and off color cattle. I was speaking more in terms of off color ie Hereford and xbreds. I have not made a habit of feeding out blemished cattle, did feed out a frozen eared Angus steer years ago, nothing noticeable wrong with feet or hooves or anything else with him.I also had a young yearling Charolais bull to break his shoulder. He was the pick of a calf crop from a long time breeder, and we had a couple different vets look at him. The consensus was that there was a chance he would heal up right, but unlikely. We kept him around hoping but it was soon evident he wouldn't heal right. So fed him out and gave him to a man that helped in the farm at that time. He would have been honest about it, and said it was the best he'd had.
Once had a black steer bought in a group of steers that something happened to him, probably fescue issues. He could hardly walk and when he did he was stiff and sometimes on his knees. my mother didn't like the thought of eating him so again we gave that one to a man that worked on the farm some.
I mentioned about having a few frozen ear, or short tailed calves, and have kept them for cows. They performed and held up as good as anything else, that was what I meant about those rather than feeding them out because we generally don't have those just one every once in a while. The last frozen ear calf I got was in a group of heifers I bought she sold right in the group.
We purposely feed out Hereford and or off color calves and sell the black ones.
Our Hereford beef has been great, much better than grocery store choice anything.
In terms of crippled or blemished cattle in feedyards, I agree with what @Dave said, I would defer to those with more experience dealing with that in the feed yards.
The issue of freeze damaged hooves as an issue associated with frozen ears makes sense, and obviously crippled calves are not going to perform on par with other cattle in a feedlot, I get that.
My thinking is this, in terms of breeds and feedlot performance and quality on the rail. I would agree that Hereford cattle of several decades ago would not fit todays desired results nor would Angus in terms of yield from those times either.
The modern Angus fits that desired market and apparently other breeds do too as long as they are black.
I wonder if there is much unbiased information anecdotal or otherwise on how present day Herefords, Charolais, perform in feedlots and in the rail.
I've heard all the stories about how Hereford will put in 2 inches of back fat and still not marble ( at least that's what sone Angus breeders say).
That has not been our experience, granted it's more limited than 1000's of head, but it has been vastly different types and genetics that we have used. We did have one Hereford steer that did have quite a bit of excess fat, but that could have been over condition as we had to keep him on feed longer to get in at a processor. All of our Hereford and Hereford crosses have marbled well. Even one with 1/4 Brahman influence marbled and had tender cuts of meat. Also heard from an Angus breeder that no percentage of Brahman would ever marble.
My suspicion is that just like Angus genetics have changed over the decades that other breeds have changed as well and we may still be working with a model based on long ago experiences that are still stereotyped to this day, when it comes to the mainstream breeds.

 

[u4411clb]

Alabama has a solution and I know even typing it seems crazy. But Alabama allows anyone with 3 or more calves to retain ownership through slaughter and get paid just like the big boys. So if you are in Alabama and feel like you are getting ripped off for your red or Hereford etc calves just use the Auburn program and retain ownership and see how you do. Just an option.

 

[Warren Allison]

I remember some years ago, we went to the Bob Evans Charolais dispersal.
They sold a bull by a popular AI sire at the time 20/20, the bull had been born during a cold spell and had frozen ears, they name him 20 Below, don't remember what he brought but like everything else at the sale he sold pretty well.
To clear the air, here, I am not advocating whatsoever that cattle with blemishes are totally equal to others, I think we got off track a bit from Herefords to crippled and frostbit ears.
To clarify, my statements about feeding out cattle especially those with frozen ears etc, and off color cattle. I was speaking more in terms of off color ie Hereford and xbreds. I have not made a habit of feeding out blemished cattle, did feed out a frozen eared Angus steer years ago, nothing noticeable wrong with feet or hooves or anything else with him.I also had a young yearling Charolais bull to break his shoulder. He was the pick of a calf crop from a long time breeder, and we had a couple different vets look at him. The consensus was that there was a chance he would heal up right, but unlikely. We kept him around hoping but it was soon evident he wouldn't heal right. So fed him out and gave him to a man that helped in the farm at that time. He would have been honest about it, and said it was the best he'd had.
Once had a black steer bought in a group of steers that something happened to him, probably fescue issues. He could hardly walk and when he did he was stiff and sometimes on his knees. my mother didn't like the thought of eating him so again we gave that one to a man that worked on the farm some.
I mentioned about having a few frozen ear, or short tailed calves, and have kept them for cows. They performed and held up as good as anything else, that was what I meant about those rather than feeding them out because we generally don't have those just one every once in a while. The last frozen ear calf I got was in a group of heifers I bought she sold right in the group.
We purposely feed out Hereford and or off color calves and sell the black ones.
Our Hereford beef has been great, much better than grocery store choice anything.
In terms of crippled or blemished cattle in feedyards, I agree with what @Dave said, I would defer to those with more experience dealing with that in the feed yards.
The issue of freeze damaged hooves as an issue associated with frozen ears makes sense, and obviously crippled calves are not going to perform on par with other cattle in a feedlot, I get that.
My thinking is this, in terms of breeds and feedlot performance and quality on the rail. I would agree that Hereford cattle of several decades ago would not fit todays desired results nor would Angus in terms of yield from those times either.
The modern Angus fits that desired market and apparently other breeds do too as long as they are black.
I wonder if there is much unbiased information anecdotal or otherwise on how present day Herefords, Charolais, perform in feedlots and in the rail.
I've heard all the stories about how Hereford will put in 2 inches of back fat and still not marble ( at least that's what sone Angus breeders say).
That has not been our experience, granted it's more limited than 1000's of head, but it has been vastly different types and genetics that we have used. We did have one Hereford steer that did have quite a bit of excess fat, but that could have been over condition as we had to keep him on feed longer to get in at a processor. All of our Hereford and Hereford crosses have marbled well. Even one with 1/4 Brahman influence marbled and had tender cuts of meat. Also heard from an Angus breeder that no percentage of Brahman would ever marble.
My suspicion is that just like Angus genetics have changed over the decades that other breeds have changed as well and we may still be working with a model based on long ago experiences that are still stereotyped to this day, when it comes to the mainstream breeds.

Those Angtus breeders are wrong about the percentage Brahma. Scott's brother has Chi-Angus and Black Simm cows, that he breeds to Brangus bulls ( as well as some half Chi-angus and half- Black simm cows), and his steers always bring that CAB premium. The man that Clay works for has about 400 Corr and LH cows he breeds to his Brangus bulls. And he buys about 600 more each year, from Florida, south Ga and LA ( lower Alabama) that he contracts for. These are from Fla Scrub cows, that he provides the farmers his Brangus bulls, and buys the calves at a set price. He feeds then from weaning to about 1000lbs, then sends them to Oklahoma to a feed lot for 90 days. These always bring a premium when they sell. Another guy we met, has red and black Brangus that he breeds with homozygous for black Simm bulls, and those calves bring the premium as well. It don't take a lot of Angus blood to meet the marbling and REA requirements for CAB. Your Herf/Ang black baldies will bring a premium. So will your Black Herefords., and they can be 61/64ths ( 95%) red Hereford. Simmental marble just as well as angus, and black Simms will just about all be certified CAB at slaughter.
I have been following what you are doing with your program of using Simm, Herf, and Angus. I bet that any of your black calves, even the ones with very little angus, will all bring the premium. If your Simm bull was black, and your Herefords were Black Herefords, every dang one of them would, I bet, no matter if they had very little angus in them.

You are right about old prejudices dying hard. There are none left of my granddaddy's generation ( he was born in 1911) but all of the old farmers that were his friends, hanging out at the sale barn, still maintained that there was no better beef than Jersey! They called it "sweet meat". Of course , growing up that was all they had to eat, They all had jersey milk cows, and when she freshened with a bull calf, they would steer it and raise it for beef. Even I myself still have a latent....and unwarranted... dislike of Simm and Char bulls, because of the days of the "cow killlers" when they first appeared, though I actually know this isn't an issue anymore. And, there are still some people around here, that don't want anything to do with Herefords, because of the eye, foot and udder problems, they think ALL Herefords have, though these aren't much of an issue anymore. Cattlemen who think outside the box, that ignore old prejudices and are willing to experiment, based on actual science, tend to be the most successful. People are all the time coming up with different crosses that perform very well, and some that don't. Kudos to those who try. Then again, if you want a cross-bred commercial program that is guaranteed to work, it is hard to beat that nearly 200 year-old, tried and true, Herf x Angus black baldy.