Hereford question

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Brandonm22":1dxnwy0o said:
I don't understand the reluctance to decrease birth weight and increase marbling. Herefords used to grade a lot better than they do now and calving ease used to be a Hereford trait. Both were lost to an extent in the 70s and 80s when chasing Simmental's frame and growth was all anybody cared about and if we had to hire somebody to pull calves out of our registered heifers or breed them to Anguses that was just part of the business. The really funny part of the last 30 years is that while Hereford was trying to be Simmental, Simmental chunked their whole identity and decided to be Angus?!?!? Now the MARC is telling us that Gelbviehs are smaller more efficient cows than Herefords. This was progress???

I've heard that a lot lately, while I'm sure there were some old Hereford bulls that marbled well, there's probably some Angus bulls that don't marble. If it was one of their stronger traits, breeders now wouldn't need to chase the few bulls/lines that marble and pass that trait on, like 774. I think there's a lot of breeders trying to get a handle on birth weights, it's pretty easy to do, if, in most cases, you don't mind giving up some growth, may not be a bad thing.
 
New to the board but not new to cows, especially horned herefords. Other credentials = 4th & 5th generation with horneds, Grandfather imported some at the time Anxiety 4th was imported (still have the reg. papers), run a lot of commercial range cows, have a purebred horned Hereford herd to raise our own bulls for 50+ years, went personally through the dwarfism thing and owned some clean cattle some dirty which we commercialized, and ran a Hereford bull test in the 70's.

In the western range environment you almost never see a polled Hereford bull.
We leave the horns on our commercial Hereford cows because they and a black baldy will be found grazing farther from the water hole. Also if you have to find cows with an airplane then with the horns you know that they are yours. For the same reason they stick out in a neighbors herd if they mistakenly gather them. If you run a lot of bulls together in the winter those without horns will never quit fighting and settle anything so they have a much higher injury rate. A neighbor from years ago pointed this out to me when he asked why we never had crippled bulls and his were always being crippled. In the 50+ years we have bred and raised our own bulls I cannot remember a stiffle or any other injury than a broken penis.

A neighbor here has the nicest looking straight Herefords in the county and they are polled. They are absolutely paddock cattle, fed 9 mos. per year when we cry that 1/2 of our cows have to be fed 2 mos. and the other 1/2 never. Last year they had a 50% preg rate and yet they baby those cows 365. They have to finish those cattle over 1500 miles away because the take such a beating locally pricewise.

For the above reasons you could not give me a polled Hereford if I had to use him.
I however am establishing at this time a small Angus purebred herd for producing our own bulls. So I am not color blind.
 
Idaman":283714c4 said:
New to the board but not new to cows, especially horned herefords. Other credentials = 4th & 5th generation with horneds, Grandfather imported some at the time Anxiety 4th was imported (still have the reg. papers), run a lot of commercial range cows, have a purebred horned Hereford herd to raise our own bulls for 50+ years, went personally through the dwarfism thing and owned some clean cattle some dirty which we commercialized, and ran a Hereford bull test in the 70's.

In the western range environment you almost never see a polled Hereford bull.
We leave the horns on our commercial Hereford cows because they and a black baldy will be found grazing farther from the water hole. Also if you have to find cows with an airplane then with the horns you know that they are yours. For the same reason they stick out in a neighbors herd if they mistakenly gather them. If you run a lot of bulls together in the winter those without horns will never quit fighting and settle anything so they have a much higher injury rate. A neighbor from years ago pointed this out to me when he asked why we never had crippled bulls and his were always being crippled. In the 50+ years we have bred and raised our own bulls I cannot remember a stiffle or any other injury than a broken penis.

A neighbor here has the nicest looking straight Herefords in the county and they are polled. They are absolutely paddock cattle, fed 9 mos. per year when we cry that 1/2 of our cows have to be fed 2 mos. and the other 1/2 never. Last year they had a 50% preg rate and yet they baby those cows 365. They have to finish those cattle over 1500 miles away because the take such a beating locally pricewise.

For the above reasons you could not give me a polled Hereford if I had to use him.
I however am establishing at this time a small Angus purebred herd for producing our own bulls. So I am not color blind.

OFFS! Here we go again!
 
Some valid points-I know up here the bigger outfits run horned bulls and the farmers with cows run polled-getting to be fewer of each though.
 
Idaman":2ykxhn3y said:
New to the board but not new to cows, especially horned herefords. Other credentials = 4th & 5th generation with horneds, Grandfather imported some at the time Anxiety 4th was imported (still have the reg. papers), run a lot of commercial range cows, have a purebred horned Hereford herd to raise our own bulls for 50+ years, went personally through the dwarfism thing and owned some clean cattle some dirty which we commercialized, and ran a Hereford bull test in the 70's...

A neighbor here has the nicest looking straight Herefords in the county and they are polled. They are absolutely paddock cattle, fed 9 mos. per year when we cry that 1/2 of our cows have to be fed 2 mos. and the other 1/2 never. Last year they had a 50% preg rate and yet they baby those cows 365. They have to finish those cattle over 1500 miles away because the take such a beating locally pricewise.

For the above reasons you could not give me a polled Hereford if I had to use him.
I however am establishing at this time a small Angus purebred herd for producing our own bulls. So I am not color blind.

Well with "credentials" like yours, you should realize that ANYONE with a 50% pregnancy rate has some major problems that have nothing to do with horns vs polled.... using that neighbor example, even if true, as an argument against polled Herefords makes no sense whatsoever. I have polled Herefords and in my admitted rookie experience (compared to your credentials) I have had only one open cow in the past several years or about 98% preg rate - and that one was my fault not the cow or bull. But that cow was culled anyway.

Life usually requires more than "credentials".

I agree with Harley.
 
Well with "credentials" like yours

Very good longevity in that family, Anxiety 4th was imported 120+ years ago, generally 25 years is viewed as 1 generation.... you do the math.
 
KNERSIE":2vca10ve said:
OFFS! Here we go again!
:lol: This is the same ole song that I've heard sung for years here, Harley! :lol:

Since my "new" bull is horned, perhaps I should join in the chorus that those Polled Herefords aren't worth a crap! :roll:

George
 
Conversely guys that have tried both and went back to Horned must all be stupid!!! They all have their place just not at everybody's place. The popular lines of polled cattle up here got so big and hard calving they got replaced by Angus cattle. The mainstream Horned cattle did much the same but there were still some herds that you could access genetics that would calve and take care of themselves.A horned cow does have a better chance of taking on predators-be it bluff or whatever.
 
A horned cow does have a better chance of taking on predators-be it bluff or whatever.

Theoretically I agree with you, but I can't say I've lost more calves to predators now that I am running poll cows as opposed to when I ran horned cows. The biggest predators here are leopards and I can't honestly say that I've ever lost a calf to one that I can definately pin down on a leopard, lost plenty of sheep to them and caracal though.

Northern Rancher, I don't think any of us poll breeders argue the merits of the horned hereford cow, but if there is a difference in quality between polls and horned cows in your neck of the woods its because of the lack in quality of the poll breeders rather than the poll breed.
 
SRBEEF sorry the "credemtials" thing touched you off and I see where you are from and your experience level does pose a handicap. That said, the connection between polled and a low calving rate is due to another part of the equation. Polls are paddock cattle not range cattle and from that fact alone they require much more management attention. So when that ingredient fails the the results are disasterous.

If you are using polls and are doing good then don't change. I would bet that not many of your young bulls end up on range ranches but probably on what we call paddock farms. There are a lot more cattle in the country that are owned by the paddock crowd than the large range outfits so your market opportunities are greater there.

I will repeat that you couldn't give me a polled Hereford bull if I had to use him nor would any of the people I know that run on large range areas. We are almost all using Angus and horned Herefords
 
Knersie. The Anxiety 4ths are an amazing family. The current Line One cattle from Miles City were originally purchased from Fred DeBerard from Kremmling, Colorado and they were called Advance Dominos at that time. They were Domino descendants and Fred was one of the first linebreeders in this country. They linebred them back then not for any other reason than to get a predictable offspring since the original Hereford imports were pretty diverse. The rest of the Line One story is history.

The Line One legacy is another advantage that horned Herefords have over all other breeds because of the result of line and in breeding in the natural elimination of genetic defects. Look at the Angus breed today with AM and NH running rampant. The polled Herefords have their IE etc. Through dwarfism and all the other catastrophes the Line One line has proven clear and clean. I checked several years ago and at that time they were in their 64th generation without any defects. They must surely be in their 70s generations by now.


Name me one other breed with this record and I will use their bulls. The Ft. Lewis lines in Colorado a division of CSU started a line breeding program like Miles City but all of their lines failed. The Royals, I believe, lasted four generations until the fifth generation when the bulls were born with no testicles. This is what Line One is all about.
 
Idaman":3yduy949 said:
Knersie. The Anxiety 4ths are an amazing family. The current Line One cattle from Miles City were originally purchased from Fred DeBerard from Kremmling, Colorado and they were called Advance Dominos at that time. They were Domino descendants and Fred was one of the first linebreeders in this country. They linebred them back then not for any other reason than to get a predictable offspring since the original Hereford imports were pretty diverse. The rest of the Line One story is history.

Are you sure about that?

The Line One legacy is another advantage that horned Herefords have over all other breeds because of the result of line and in breeding in the natural elimination of genetic defects. Look at the Angus breed today with AM and NH running rampant. The polled Herefords have their IE etc. Through dwarfism and all the other catastrophes the Line One line has proven clear and clean. I checked several years ago and at that time they were in their 64th generation without any defects. They must surely be in their 70s generations by now.

IE IS a L1 problem!

HY is a poll problem going back to JR Nick The Butler among others. The polls have a far bigger problem with lazy prepuces IMO


Name me one other breed with this record and I will use their bulls. The Ft. Lewis lines in Colorado a division of CSU started a line breeding program like Miles City but all of their lines failed. The Royals, I believe, lasted four generations until the fifth generation when the bulls were born with no testicles. This is what Line One is all about.

Since when is the L1s a breed of their own? Again I have nothing at all against L1 cattle, atleast they more or less stayed true to what I believe a Hereford is supposed to be all about. I also don't have a problem with linebreeding, I see it as an essential tool and use it myself.

I can name you another "breed" of Herefords even older and I wouldn't use a bull out of that program if he was free.

You Anxiety 4th comments on your first post got me curious... you sound familiar, time will tell.

Just answer me this, in what year were you, your grandfather and father born?
 
KNERSIE":nspiisoq said:
IE IS a L1 problem! HY is a poll problem going back to JR Nick The Butler among others. The polls have a far bigger problem with lazy prepuces IMO

Technically, IE is a potential problem in only SOME Line 1 cattle - those that are descendants of HH Advance P242. The Miles City cattle that Idaman refers to don't have IE.

The Polled Herefords on my place have so much horned blood in them that I can't tell much difference other than the presence or absence of horns - certainly no more difference than Hereford cattle of different bloodlines would have.

I don't know about his cows but SRBeef's bull would be the same way.

George
 
Knersie- My birth 1940, fathers 1909, grandfathers prior to 1875 but don't know the year.

I don't think I said that the Line Ones were a seperate breed but you may have interpreted it that way They are a horned Hereford line through and through. I was unaware that EI was in any of them.

I don't know that the early breeders practiced linebreeding to gain uniformity because I was not there at the time. But from what my early mentors told me that was the case. One of those mentors knew and learned from Fred Deberard who bred the cattle that were the foundation of the Line Ones. Miles city originally selected the Deberard Advance Dominos because they had been line bred up to that point and hadn't broken down genetically. I went back into some of our old pedigrees dating to 1906 and they have Anxiety 4th in them. There was also one share in the American Hereford Breeders Association of Kansas, City Missouri, an Arizona Corporation, share No. 4118, issued to my great grandfather. One of the cows they had at that time was Bonnie 48640 whose mother sold for $1875 and whose great grandfather sold for $18000 (Lord Wilton 5739). Another was Carla 239672 by Weston Stamp 76073 who was imported after being the Lancaster Champion in England, also in there was The Grove 3rd who sold for $7000 at ten years of age. Anxiety the 4ths sire, I believe was also in there. One cow back in the pedigree of Bonnie, Water Lily 4th shows only blanks where her ancestors would be. Tom Beau Monde 71126 was linebred to Anxiety 4th through
Wild Tom 51592 and his sire Beau Real 11055 and then to Anxiety 4th. Tom Beau Monde's mother Beau Monde also had the sire Anxiety 4th.

Also what "breed" or actually "line" of Herefords wouldn't you use. Ferry Carpenter told me one time that he had fused a line of milking Herefords into his herd in the early days.
 
Rocket 2222- Eliminating genetic defects by line breeding is genetics 101. Read again my earlier post about the CSU Royal line losing all their testicles in the 5th generation. I would say that that is one defect that got eliminated wouldn't you
 
Idaman":3ily8qni said:
I don't know that the early breeders practiced linebreeding to gain uniformity because I was not there at the time. But from what my early mentors told me that was the case.

I'm sure that was one of the reasons - but certainly not the only reason from all I've read!

And if you look at those pictures of the Herefords at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, you start to wonder how much progress we've REALLY made in a century of breeding!
04heref3.jpg

04herefd.jpg

04here2.jpg


George
 
Hereford.US- Thanks for the pictures they are great. I agree with the overall progress thing, that is one reason I posted the prices of those cattle way back in the early 1900s. Haven't changed much either.
 
Idaman":2zw3aab1 said:
Hereford.US- Thanks for the pictures they are great. I agree with the overall progress thing, that is one reason I posted the prices of those cattle way back in the early 1900s. Haven't changed much either.

If you have actual registration papers prior to 1900, I sure wish you'd scan them or take pictures of them and post them. I've seen some from right around (post) 1900 but none before - would love to see what they looked like.

George
 

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