Hereford question

[Brandonm22]

Knersie, you can't guarantee the accuracy of the pedigree for much the same reasons you can't guarantee the accuracy of human genealogical research (that great grandad Bob and great grandmom Sarah were married doesn't "guarantee" that Bob Jr was related to Bob Sr). The pedigree is the accepted history, the likely history, not the GUARANTEED history. If any breed association "guarantees" it's accuracy, I got questions about THEIR honesty. I have absolutely no knowledge that anything unethical occurred in Titan's or any other bull's history. Blind conjecture on the part of some long dead former breed association employee with a chip on his shoulder told second or third hand via the rumour mill back before we had DNA testing wouldn't be admissable in any court of law because it is hearsay, conjecture, and little more plausible than a ghost story. I have heard Justa Banner derisively called Justa Simmental for almost 30 years and I don't see anything in his pic or his performance that would make me question his Herefordness. Are we going to eliminate his great great great great great progeny from use because of some snide comments? In Perfection's case, the APHA actually delisted from the pedigree and there are media and court records showing that the APHA board themselves at one time officially declared his pedigree fraudulent. In THAT case there is strong researchable evidence to make the case that the pedigree is suspect; but even there it still stands in the AHA database as originally turned in.

 

[alexfarms]

Knersie, you can't guarantee the accuracy of the pedigree for much the same reasons you can't guarantee the accuracy of human genealogical research (that great grandad Bob and great grandmom Sarah were married doesn't "guarantee" that Bob Jr was related to Bob Sr). The pedigree is the accepted history, the likely history, not the GUARANTEED history. If any breed association "guarantees" it's accuracy, I got questions about THEIR honesty. I have absolutely no knowledge that anything unethical occurred in Titan's or any other bull's history. Blind conjecture on the part of some long dead former breed association employee with a chip on his shoulder told second or third hand via the rumour mill back before we had DNA testing wouldn't be admissable in any court of law because it is hearsay, conjecture, and little more plausible than a ghost story. I have heard Justa Banner derisively called Justa Simmental for almost 30 years and I don't see anything in his pic or his performance that would make me question his Herefordness. Are we going to eliminate his great great great great great progeny from use because of some snide comments? In Perfection's case, the APHA actually delisted from the pedigree and there are media and court records showing that the APHA board themselves at one time officially declared his pedigree fraudulent. In THAT case there is strong researchable evidence to make the case that the pedigree is suspect; but even there it still stands in the AHA database as originally turned in.

It is hard to argue with anything you say there, Brandonm22, even though it is hard to accept. When we turn in our registrations, we turn them in with the responsibility that we can prove their accuracy to the best of our ability if questioned by the association. I don't think Perfection was proven to be a crossbred, but some questions must not have been answered to the liking of the APHA. The breeder of an animal has to cooperate with the associations investigation and open up all their records. I know of one case where a man(A) sold a bull and a daughter of the bull produced a herd sire and then the man(A) reported the pedigree on the bull to be intentionally fraudulant. Generations of cattle were involved and what could be done? Man(A)'s actions had proven himself to be dishonest, so nothing was done. It is definately "let the buyer beware" in the purebred business. Realistically, an association can't catch everything. Common sense needs to be used. I know Cooper/Holdens have been parentage testing everything for many years and maybe we all should just to protect ourselves.

 

[Herefords.US]

Knersie, you can't guarantee the accuracy of the pedigree for much the same reasons you can't guarantee the accuracy of human genealogical research (that great grandad Bob and great grandmom Sarah were married doesn't "guarantee" that Bob Jr was related to Bob Sr). The pedigree is the accepted history, the likely history, not the GUARANTEED history. If any breed association "guarantees" it's accuracy, I got questions about THEIR honesty. I have absolutely no knowledge that anything unethical occurred in Titan's or any other bull's history. Blind conjecture on the part of some long dead former breed association employee with a chip on his shoulder told second or third hand via the rumour mill back before we had DNA testing wouldn't be admissable in any court of law because it is hearsay, conjecture, and little more plausible than a ghost story. I have heard Justa Banner derisively called Justa Simmental for almost 30 years and I don't see anything in his pic or his performance that would make me question his Herefordness. Are we going to eliminate his great great great great great progeny from use because of some snide comments? In Perfection's case, the APHA actually delisted from the pedigree and there are media and court records showing that the APHA board themselves at one time officially declared his pedigree fraudulent. In THAT case there is strong researchable evidence to make the case that the pedigree is suspect; but even there it still stands in the AHA database as originally turned in.

It really doesn't make a bit of difference what YOU think, Brandon! Or what I think, individually! As a purebred seedstock producer, having cattle with 23D in their pedigree adds a marketing problem - because there is still a number of potential buyers out there that have reservations about using those cattle in their own breeding program - for various reasons. One of those reasons is that there's going to be some buyer resistance to the cattle that THEY produce!

That's the reason a couple of the mentors, whose advice I sought when returning to the Hereford business, gave when advising me. Both still owned a very few cattle (females) that trace to 23D themselves, among some sizable herds. Both know that the offspring of those cows appeal to a smaller portion of their customer base, regardless of how good they are. And both advised me to avoid having the same problem, since I was starting from scratch - that there were plenty of good Hereford cattle out there that didn't trace to 23D.

George

 

[novatech]

For others wanting to see the bull being discussed there is a pic. on this site.
http://www.envirecon.com/news.htm
Titan 23D

 

[Herefords.US]

For others wanting to see the bull being discussed there is a pic. on this site.
http://www.envirecon.com/news.htm
Titan 23D

Here's a better one:

George

 

[LFF]

More good opinions have been added to the post. I'd like to comment on some of them.

Purity within a breed is extremely important because of honesty. I totally believe that any calf that is registered should be 100% pure blood. What has been done in the past by others and the association may or may not be undone , however we currently need to insure that purity henceforth is maintained.

Titan's pedgree was accepted because the association believed it was in the best interest. Who's interest is questionable.
I certainly understand breeders being angry who had cattle closely breed to Titan. I would not want Titan to be close up in a pedgree and if I had , I'd probaly eliminate them.

Felton 774 traces back to Titan and if Titan was 1/2 or 1/4 semmental Feltons 774 would be 1/64 or 1/124. Feltons 774 has been widely accepted by Hereford breeders (both oldtimers and newbies) and is one of Dun's favorite Hereford bulls that he used on crossbred cows, if memory serves me correctly.

How big of a percentage of Titan in a pedgree am I confortable with? Probally not very much at this present time and it would have to stay a low percentage if Titan is every proven impure. I have cows and bulls that are 1/248 percent Titan and they do well in maternal and carcass quality. Will they ever cause a commercial harm by useing them? No more likely than any other animal.

Marbling is very important for beef cattle producers , registered or commercial. Cattle markets are always unpredictable and anyone's opinion can be wrong. Most of what I base my opinion is the cost of production in the USA. I hear people say that pounds pay , and that is true, but expences have grown so high in the US that it will be increasely more difficult for US farmers to compete with other countries on a pound basis. US farmers are going to need to focus on producing higher marbling qualities that other countrys lack similar recourses to compete economically with US farmers. There is always going to be a pound market but it is probally going to be in South America or Brazil.

Herefords do marble higher than many other breeds , however the majority will only go high select to low choice. That is fine for selling on a pound basis, on a quality grid it needs improvement.

The diluter gene is something we need to eliminate. True it does not hurt the beef quality of a calf , but who wants one in their herd?

 

[novatech]

For others wanting to see the bull being discussed there is a pic. on this site.
http://www.envirecon.com/news.htm
Titan 23D

Here's a better one:

George

As far as phenotype I have seen some Domino blood that was similar.
I agree with LFF. Let dead dogs lay.
I remember a prayer that said something about not worrying about the things I cannot change but help me change the things I can.

 

[Herefords.US]

As far as phenotype I have seen some Domino blood that was similar.
I agree with LFF. Let dead dogs lay.
I remember a prayer that said something about not worrying about the things I cannot change but help me change the things I can.

The presence of the diluter gene in descendants is proof positive, to me, that Titan 23D was indeed part Simmental. But I'm not calling for a cleansing of the Association registry. That's not practical. To do so would cause hardship to innocent people and likely bankrupt the Association from the resulting lawsuits.

However, if someone new to the business comes to me for advice, I'd give them the same advice that I was given 7 years ago. If you can CHOOSE to avoid this problem, why take it on?

Those, like LFF and Hereford76, who already owned the cattle have to follow their own conscience. If I already owned 23D descendants, I would probably continue to push the influence out through generational turnover...and be certain that I didn't double up the influence through the bulls I used....and accept the fact that there's going to be a segment of potential customers who aren't going to be interested in their production. But that's not any different than choosing to raise horned Herefords, Polled herefords, or Herefords in general. There are a number of potential customers that won't be interested because they have horns...or they don't have horns...or they aren't black!

George

 

[Hereford76]

For the life of me, I could not care less about the "diluter gene". A diluter calf grills just as well as an other baldie. And if the cattle are tested diluter gene free what are we whining about??? A commercial cattleman sees a 15/16s Hereford and sees a Hereford. A commercial cattleman sees a 15/16s Angus and sees an Angus. A commercial cattleman looks at a 15/16s Charolais and sees a Charolais. They don't think ten seconds about the cow's great great great grandmama. A purebreeder looks at a pedigree and sees a great great great great grandparent some bored busybody 30 years ago told some silly story about (which may or may not be a complete lie) and they see a composite?!!?!?! It is ridiculous and it has absolutely no relevance to the real world of raising cattle and making money. We care about marbling because it makes the dining experience for the end user more enjoyable. Titan waaaaaay back in the pedigree affects those customers how?????

you don't have to explain it to me - save your breath cause you'll need it explaining it to the man that did care only he didn't know or you have a justified reason in your head not to (even tho that type of person is getting rarer indeed).... oh and one heads up - you'll lose them everytime with math so leave that one in the bag. and on the marbling deal - call me crazy but what would it do for the entire beef industry if we could substitute the word select or high select for choice.

 

[LFF]

The presence of the diluter gene in descendants is proof positive, to me, that Titan 23D was indeed part Simmental. But I'm not calling for a cleansing of the Association registry. That's not practical. To do so would cause hardship to innocent people and likely bankrupt the Association from the resulting lawsuits.


George

Do you think that these also have semmental in their bloodlines? I have not gone through the pedgrees

Entries:1 ~ 17 of 17 are shown Sorted by:

Selection Criteria: Dilutor,



ANL 4M RACHELLE 64P {DLC,IEF} (P42771018)
B ADMIRAL MISCHIEF 12 {DLC,IEF} (42889245)
DH RAM BOY 883 {DLC,HYF,IEF} (42923155)
FTF M326 MAIN MAN 805U {DLC,IEF} (P42882283)
FTF SPECIAL EDITION 536R {DLC,IEF} (P42620341)
JP MISS GOLD 7742 {DLC,IEF} (42849542)
JP MISS LAD 6785 {DLC,IEF} (42683712)
KEL CONNIE M1 {DOD,DLC,IEF} (P42394430)
MH GOLD MISS ONLINE 5324 ET {DLC,IEF} (42639478) -
MH KEY DOMINO U44 {DLC,IEC} (42962787) -
OXH MONARCH 1199 {DLC} (42180512)
R MISS HOOD 704 {DLC,IEF} (42507665)
TCL MOOLAH MAKER 2203 {DLC,IEF} (42638078) -
UU ROBIN HOOD 1118 {DLC} (42152464)
WBI 41J MAINTIMET AMARA I24L {DLC,IEF} (P42199593)
WBI M242 TAMARA I4P {DLC,IEF} (P42511915) -
WHR 386 DOMINO 391 {DLC,IEF} (19398519)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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[Herefords.US]

The presence of the diluter gene in descendants is proof positive, to me, that Titan 23D was indeed part Simmental. But I'm not calling for a cleansing of the Association registry. That's not practical. To do so would cause hardship to innocent people and likely bankrupt the Association from the resulting lawsuits.


George

Do you think that these also have semmental in their bloodlines? I have not gone through the pedgrees

Entries:1 ~ 17 of 17 are shown Sorted by:

Selection Criteria: Dilutor,



ANL 4M RACHELLE 64P {DLC,IEF} (P42771018)
B ADMIRAL MISCHIEF 12 {DLC,IEF} (42889245)
DH RAM BOY 883 {DLC,HYF,IEF} (42923155)
FTF M326 MAIN MAN 805U {DLC,IEF} (P42882283)
FTF SPECIAL EDITION 536R {DLC,IEF} (P42620341)
JP MISS GOLD 7742 {DLC,IEF} (42849542)
JP MISS LAD 6785 {DLC,IEF} (42683712)
KEL CONNIE M1 {DOD,DLC,IEF} (P42394430)
MH GOLD MISS ONLINE 5324 ET {DLC,IEF} (42639478) -
MH KEY DOMINO U44 {DLC,IEC} (42962787) -
OXH MONARCH 1199 {DLC} (42180512)
R MISS HOOD 704 {DLC,IEF} (42507665)
TCL MOOLAH MAKER 2203 {DLC,IEF} (42638078) -
UU ROBIN HOOD 1118 {DLC} (42152464)
WBI 41J MAINTIMET AMARA I24L {DLC,IEF} (P42199593)
WBI M242 TAMARA I4P {DLC,IEF} (P42511915) -
WHR 386 DOMINO 391 {DLC,IEF} (19398519)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Online Contact Stacy Sanders February 14, 2010 HerfNet.Com
Site Designed & Supported by: ABRI i4 7.1.4 © Copyright 2010 All Rights Reserved.

Most likely!

George

 

[giftedcowboy]

Has anyone mentioned Advancer 228D ???? Does anyone have anything to say about his parentage?????

 

[JHH]

What happened to H76's last post there?

Anyway. Ace I have a person close to me that sold a guy some bulls that were HYC.( I should say they could be HYC they hadnt been tested) I went to look at them with another guy and without the help of some of the guys on here I wouldnt have really looked. We didnt get one from him but this still proves that there are people out there that just dont give a hoot.

The person that sold them cows and bulls to this older gentleman knew what was there and still didnt take the time to tell the older man what he was selling him.After I showed him on the pedigree he sold all them bulls by the pound and I am sure they are gone by now.

 

[Hereford76]

i quit - everytime i speak about certain issues they get deleted.

ok - here it is with out all the cussing. i want it on these boards cause i probably sound strictly like a purist without it

Hereford76 wrote:
Herefords.US wrote:
Those, like LFF and Hereford76, who already owned the cattle have to follow their own conscience. If I already owned 23D descendants, I would probably continue to push the influence out through generational turnover...and be certain that I didn't double up the influence through the bulls I used....and accept the fact that there's going to be a segment of potential customers who aren't going to be interested in their production. But that's not any different than choosing to raise horned Herefords, Polled herefords, or Herefords in general. There are a number of potential customers that won't be interested because they have horns...or they don't have horns...or they aren't black!
George

to me there is a difference that unless you had the cattle when it originally became an issue a person will not understand. i totally get brandonm22 and lff thoughts on it and don't think i didn't use the same rationing EXPLAINING the cattle. and you are right george with the advice you were given, have given, or would give on the matter. if you can choose not to deal with the issue don't and i think brandon is right, another generation goes by and most won't even have a clue or a reason to care.

the difference is i personally gave the AHA and whats his name genetecist the bloodwork for the dna test we now have out of a commercial angus customer of mine that at the time had 17 smokey calves out of "angus" cows that had been exposed to 12 of my bulls, two holden bulls and another that i will not mention. and i was furious over the fact that no one else would. mr schaefer and oxly or a list of others couldn't - bs more likely wouldn't and i wonder why and then what disperse like the rest of the chicken poops. here i am a guy on a place that has never sold a darn diluter but i provide the gentlemen that sold all the dirty dilutin cattle that caused the whole problem in the first place a tool to get out of it and yes - the aha would have got the blood somewhere else but outifits like mine are the ones that take it in the shorts for the team or sell off herds cause i can't sell a bull because duncan, ruehm, oxley, stuber, and list goes on that created a marketing problem. sure we got it licked now cause no one should ever get a smokey calf again - that don't mean the ranchers in my backyard will ever FORGET the fact that i used a home raised son of summit and even tho i tested the bull breeding him to 30 black cows to prove him clean before i ever sold a bull out of him. but not many actually went through all that now did they and the people that look at raising the titan cattle the other way have the luxury of taking it for granted. its been a good time since i have let this get too me - but maybe you can understand the actions i took and the reason i no longer have a use for the cattle and why it is an issue to me.

 

[Herefords.US]

What happened to H76's last post there?

It probably got removed because of some "inappropriate" words in it, which was a shame because the gist of the post was really good. I have it saved. All I'll say is that I appreciate Hereford76's "straight from the heart" thoughts.

George

 

[JHH]

i quit - everytime i speak about certain issues they get deleted.

I have had the same thing happen to me when Doc and I were having an arguement over ol molly.

 

[LFF]

Hereford76,

I'm sorry for the pain and economic losses that you endured. I realize why you would never want to be involved with Titian's bloodline. I'm sure many of the Angus breeders understand some of what you endured. Had I faced your situation I probally would not want to have anything to do with cattle , much less Herefords.

I also want to say THANK YOU.

The contributions , good and bad , that breeders made in the past has molded the Hereford breed to where it is today. Many have made their livehood from the cattle that they bred and raised. I'd like to raise a superior product , however I feel like we should never place our livelyhood upon raising breeding stock. We as purebred breeders should be prepaired to make a profit off of the beef that we sell for consumption, anything more should be considered gravy.

Thanks for sharing your heart aches , disappointments and speaking so cander.

 

[SRBeef]

For others wanting to see the bull being discussed there is a pic. on this site.
http://www.envirecon.com/news.htm
Titan 23D

What a great link, esp the commentary page. Thank you. But it begs an answer for why is the page, with all these great plans, last updated in 2006? Jim

 

[Brandonm22]

As far as phenotype I have seen some Domino blood that was similar.
I agree with LFF. Let dead dogs lay.
I remember a prayer that said something about not worrying about the things I cannot change but help me change the things I can.

LFF is right. This is only an issue because Feltons Domino 774 is DISTANTLY descended from the bull and FD 774 has become one of the hottest bloodlines in the Hereford breed. I am sorry that 76 and Herefords.US have buyers who actually care about this extremely mundane ancient history and certainly if that is the case they should avoid Titan's many many descendants; but nobody else is having any difficulty marketing these genetics. FD 774 has 718 registered progeny in the AHA database including 28 sons who I can currently buy semen from and his most successful son thus far Feltons Legend 242 has 3199 birth weights that have been turned in to the AHA to date (the number registered is probably higher but the AHA would only show me the first 1500). Feltons Magnum 434 has 636 registered progeny. Ozzie has 883.

 

[alftn]

So let me see ,some of you say it is O.K. to lie about you cattle not being pure breed , because I will hurt the people that bought these mixed breed cattle and it ain't their fault.

Well how about DNA testing some of his calves and find out...Then let the consumer make the choice wheather they by into the lie or not...

Also how about legal recorse against the people that sale these cattle? Should there be a fraud charge there, or is ignorance a good excuse..????

I think it sucks, and I would not want them not to be reg.or at least **************************

And as a (novice) commerical cattle, if it and pure I do not want it, It does make a difference to me....