heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

[bigbull338]

Two dollars a day seems high bigbull338. What were they getting?

We can feed grain and hay and only go $1.09 a day.

$2 day isnt high at all an heres why.im feeding 3hd right now.an im feeding a 14% pellet feed cost $11/100.was getting a 16% dairy feed for $14/100.high quality costal hay $6 a bale.feeding 1/2 to 1/3 bale a day more or less.now im feeding grain at 1 to 1.5% of body weight.figures to 25lbs grain more or less a day. breakdown pre head is 8.3lbs a hd.calves weigh from 600 to 850lbs.i cant feed cattle as cheap as you.thats why i can buy reg cows producing cheaper or as cheap as i can raise them.

 

[Brute 23]

Two dollars a day seems high bigbull338. What were they getting?

We can feed grain and hay and only go $1.09 a day.

So you have well over a 1000 dollars in your heifers as well at a 1.09 a day upkeep.

$1.09 gives that animal grain, all they can eat hay every day... for three years. That comes out to only $1200. The same price as a bought cow... but you know where your heifers came from.

Plus... when you subtract out the time the heifer was on the cow. Plus you don't feed hay year round nor should you feed grain every day it comes out way less.

Keep trying Caustic... the math proves it.

 

[Brute 23]

Two dollars a day seems high bigbull338. What were they getting?

We can feed grain and hay and only go $1.09 a day.

$2 day isnt high at all an heres why.im feeding 3hd right now.an im feeding a 14% pellet feed cost $11/100.was getting a 16% dairy feed for $14/100.high quality costal hay $6 a bale.feeding 1/2 to 1/3 bale a day more or less.now im feeding grain at 1 to 1.5% of body weight.figures to 25lbs grain more or less a day. breakdown pre head is 8.3lbs a hd.calves weigh from 600 to 850lbs.i cant feed cattle as cheap as you.thats why i can buy reg cows producing cheaper or as cheap as i can raise them.

Thats one of those deals that if that is what your programs requires you to feed than it will not work for you. I bet those heifers are butterball fat on that feed program, right? Registered people have a habbit of doing that.

The goal with any animal is to give them all the food and nutrients they need but not over feed them to be butterball fat. That is wasted money unless your market like that and you can justify it.
Be like my uncle with his registered stock feeding heifers from weaning time until breeding on free choice grain. Then he cries there is no money to be made in the cattle business. :lol: I sell heifers for the same price and myne cost 1/3 less to raise.


This is for every one:
Think about this. If you can buy cattle cheaper than what you can grow your own... what is the person doing that sells you the cattle you buy? Are they selling the animals to you taking a loss? ... because if you are paying $2 a day then they should be also, right?
How are they doing it?

There are two possibilites that I see go on with people who sell heifers...
1)They know how to produce quality animals cheaper than you do (that is a real possibilty, you just need to find out what they are doing)
2)They feed only enought to make sure they profit... not necessary what the animal needs (that can be bad, that goes back to keeping you own because you know where they came from)

 

[Caustic Burno]

Two dollars a day seems high bigbull338. What were they getting?

We can feed grain and hay and only go $1.09 a day.

So you have well over a 1000 dollars in your heifers as well at a 1.09 a day upkeep.

$1.09 gives that animal grain, all they can eat hay every day... for three years. That comes out to only $1200. The same price as a bought cow... but you know where your heifers came from.

Plus... when you subtract out the time the heifer was on the cow. Plus you don't feed hay year round nor should you feed grain every day it comes out way less.

Keep trying Caustic... the math proves it.

But I am getting a return on capital today and you are still waiting two years on a maybe.
I understand retaining for genetics in a reg herd, I understand running a closed herd for health reasons as both have a sound economic reason.
Retaining in a commercial herd has loser written all over it, who in the world would think you can upkeep a heifer for two and half years before she has a payday cheaper than a bred cow .

 

[Brute 23]

We do it all the time. Especailly since the numbers we have been using like $1200 for a cow is on the very low side. IF you have good genetics... commercial or not. Really all our heifers need is a little grass and time...

Caustic... ANSWER THIS:
IF I can't keep heifers for less than buying them how do the people I buy from profit?
Answer that and this whole debate will be over.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Its apparent you can't see the forest for the trees it cost to keep a cow producing or not.
There are no free rides.

 

[Brute 23]

Answer the question and we will be done.... :lol: How do they (WE) do it?

Keep buying animals from people like myself because yall can't make it work... I am making a killing. :cowboy:

There are good reasons for buying out side and not retaining your own... new genetics (adding to your herd)... time (if you need cattle now)... and space (not enough room if you are a small operation)......... IT doesn't pay is not a good one for most people. ;-)

 

[Hippie Rancher]

Retaining in a commercial herd has loser written all over it, who in the world would think you can upkeep a heifer for two and half years before she has a payday cheaper than a bred cow .

On range with plenty of feed the costs are minimal - basically just a time factor and if you are retaining 10 to 20% you are having a new batch every year anyway. Buying a DECENT bred cow doesn't pencil out for me, that is for sure. First they are hard to come by and second they are pricey. Keeping a bunch of heifers on range doesn't cost much and adding the other factors already mentioned just makes it the best choice for us.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Answer the question and we will be done.... :lol: How do they (WE) do it?

Keep buying animals from people like myself because yall can't make it work... I am making a killing. :cowboy:

You most likely aint.

 

[Brute 23]

Answer the question and we will be done.... :lol: How do they (WE) do it?

Keep buying animals from people like myself because yall can't make it work... I am making a killing. :cowboy:

You most likely aint.

I am, if I could get enough weaned heifers from outside parties I would go from cow/ calf operation to just selling heifers and bred beifers. Right now I keep only enough cow/ calf pairs to have a steady income and produce my own heifers to sell.

The risk is low because if people stop buying I just keep them and go to cow/ calf operation. Its like feeding out steers but you are getting paid for an end product... not per/ lb... and you have alot better back up if things start going bad.

 

[cypressfarms]

Caustic... ANSWER THIS:
IF I can't keep heifers for less than buying them how do the people I buy from profit?
Answer that and this whole debate will be over.

Brute,

I tried to post a few minutes ago, but I guess my post was lost in space.

I'll give a real world scenario on producing replacements:

My dad is one of those ol timer cattlemen that has an eye for cattle that I can only dream of. He's one of those guys that can tell you a calves weight within 20 pounds as soon as it steps foot in the ring. He has established a high name/reputation for replacements within the local community. It is not uncommon for other cattlemen to stop buy and ask what he has available. Here's how he does it:

He buys weaned heifers (around the 400# range). Some from the stockyard, some from local people, whoever he can make deals with. He takes those heifers and raises them with a meticulous eye. Any that aren't doing well are culled and sent to the sale barn as stockers. Since black is king in our area, he mostly buys Brangus and Angus commerical heifers with the occasional black baldy thrown in.

He uses NO FEED. The weather is mild to say the least where we live in Louisiana, so the heifers make it on bermuda and ryegrass. Hay in the winter as well ofcourse. The only feed these heifers ever see is enough to keep them coming if he calls them. When the heifers are breeding age/size, he breeds them to a low birth weight brangus bull that I bought several years ago. He can turn around these heifers in a year to 1 1/2 years. He has options on selling as well. He can sell them as bred heifers, later as "springers", or even wait and sell them as pairs or 3 in 1's. He decides when to sell based on what will give him the most profit.

He has little input cost, since 400# heifers are not THAT expensive. Although the trend is changing, for a long time 400# heifers were a good bit cheaper than their steer and bull counterparts. The daily upkeep is not much, because none of them are lactating - so their nutritional requirements are lower than a normal cow.

The big thing that makes him succesful is his eye for small heifers. Not everyone can look at a 400# heifer and tell if she has the potential. Although he does have culls, he averages about 90% making it to breeding and sale age. These are premium bred heifers that command very good prices. I attribute this to his eye to details. I can't really pin one thing he does down, though. He's just one of those people that seem to turn everything to gold. (In my experience, it's the people that work the hardest that have the best "luck")

It is not uncommon for him to double (or sometimes much more) his initial investment.

So Brute, This is how he profits. He buys small heifers, develops them on grass, and sells them to cattlemen for $1200 & up. I wish I had his eye, maybe one day I will. Oh, by the way, he doesn't run cow/calf - he says there's not enough money in it ;-)

 

[Caustic Burno]

Answer the question and we will be done.... :lol: How do they (WE) do it?

Keep buying animals from people like myself because yall can't make it work... I am making a killing. :cowboy:

You most likely aint.

I am, if I could get enough weaned heifers from outside parties I would go from cow/ calf operation to just selling heifers and bred beifers. Right now I keep only enough cow/ calf pairs to have a steady income and produce my own heifers to sell.

The risk is low because if people stop buying I just keep them and go to cow/ calf operation. Its like feeding out steers but you are getting paid for an end product... not per/ lb... and you have alot better back up if things start going bad.

If you say so.
I have been messing with these cows for over 30 years and I have penciled them 9 ways to Sunday.
Every few week's I see someone selling out at the salebarn that was paying money by the bushel basket a few months earlier at the feed store.

 

[dyates]

I am, if I could get enough weaned heifers from outside parties I would go from cow/ calf operation to just selling heifers and bred beifers. Right now I keep only enough cow/ calf pairs to have a steady income and produce my own heifers to sell.

The risk is low because if people stop buying I just keep them and go to cow/ calf operation. Its like feeding out steers but you are getting paid for an end product... not per/ lb... and you have alot better back up if things start going bad.[/quote]

:clap: I'm thinking along your lines. We aren't selling any heifers this year. The pound price for heifers is pitiful. With this past year's drought and the heavy culling/herd dispersals that went on, any decent bred heifer will bring at least twice as much this spring as what she will bring right now.

 

[Sir Loin]

Caustic,
Try this.
The next time you need two replacement heifer, pick one of your own and buy it from yourself.
Just pull the money out of your left pocket and put it in your right pocket.

Then go to the sale barn and buy the second one.
Just pull the money out of your left pocket and put it in some stranger's pocket.

It's no wonder all you do is complain about not making any money!
Q. Why is it that you never answer anyone's questions with a direct answer?

SL

 

[Brute 23]

I am sure you have Caustic... it took me I don't know how many years to get my family to get on board with theses ideas. I had to go out and do it on other places and come back with the books and cash to prove to them. They have been doing it alot longer than 30 years also.

You want to know my sectrect, Don't spend so much time with the actual cattle. They need food, water, mineral. IF they can't do any thing on their own get rid of them... no excuses... ever. If you think you have to build a fence around you tank because a cow drowned... you were better off not having those genetics in the herd. :lol: Cattle raised in bubbles don't bring more than cattle raised in pastures... and I think we both agree on that Caustic.

My time is spent making connections, learning my market, and keeping accurate books. By making connection I can buy cheaper and sell higher on my name. Knowing the market tells me what is fair to ask when is the right and wrong time. Keeping accurate books tells me if, or how much I can make and gives references to look back at to make a more knowledge when predicting out comes for some thing new. Camp Cooley has some good ideas and you don't have to have that name to do the same.

 

[Arkieman]

Am I going to have to get my timeline out again?! :lol:

Maybe ones w/ fixed cost such as land leases, equipment loans, etc. could appreciate the view that Caustic gives. In a very simplified example, if you have carrying capacity of 20 cows and fixed costs consisting of lease of $2000 and equip payments of $3000 for a total of $5000/year. Each cow carries $250 per head of these fixed costs ($5000/20).

If you have retained 5 heifers and culled 5 cows you would have 15 cows and 5 heifers. For about two years (since your heifers will not produce income) your 15 cows will now have the burden of $333/hd per year in fixed costs to cover (increase of 33%).

I think many are missing the point - the cost to get heifers to production is close to same for most (can't buy 'em cheaper than you can raise them). However, if you choose to buy at breeding age, they can produce NOW without having to support them in their growing years.

 

[Brute 23]

Am I going to have to get my timeline out again?! :lol:

Maybe ones w/ fixed cost such as land leases, equipment loans, etc. could appreciate the view that Caustic gives. In a very simplified example, if you have carrying capacity of 20 cows and fixed costs consisting of lease of $2000 and equip payments of $3000 for a total of $5000/year. Each cow carries $250 per head of these fixed costs ($5000/20).

If you have retained 5 heifers and culled 5 cows you would have 15 cows and 5 heifers. For about two years (since your heifers will not produce income) your 15 cows will now have the burden of $333/hd per year in fixed costs to cover (increase of 33%).

I think many are missing the point - the cost to get heifers to production is close to same for most (can't buy 'em cheaper than you can raise them). However, if you choose to buy at breeding age, they can produce NOW without having to support them in their growing years.

I gave three reasons why people need or have to buy replacement. NOt enough room is one of them. IF all you have is a 20 cow herd than keeping replacement is probably not an option. :roll:

 

[Brute 23]

Caustic... ANSWER THIS:
IF I can't keep heifers for less than buying them how do the people I buy from profit?
Answer that and this whole debate will be over.

Brute,

I tried to post a few minutes ago, but I guess my post was lost in space.

I'll give a real world scenario on producing replacements:

My dad is one of those ol timer cattlemen that has an eye for cattle that I can only dream of. He's one of those guys that can tell you a calves weight within 20 pounds as soon as it steps foot in the ring. He has established a high name/reputation for replacements within the local community. It is not uncommon for other cattlemen to stop buy and ask what he has available. Here's how he does it:

He buys weaned heifers (around the 400# range). Some from the stockyard, some from local people, whoever he can make deals with. He takes those heifers and raises them with a meticulous eye. Any that aren't doing well are culled and sent to the sale barn as stockers. Since black is king in our area, he mostly buys Brangus and Angus commerical heifers with the occasional black baldy thrown in.

He uses NO FEED. The weather is mild to say the least where we live in Louisiana, so the heifers make it on bermuda and ryegrass. Hay in the winter as well ofcourse. The only feed these heifers ever see is enough to keep them coming if he calls them. When the heifers are breeding age/size, he breeds them to a low birth weight brangus bull that I bought several years ago. He can turn around these heifers in a year to 1 1/2 years. He has options on selling as well. He can sell them as bred heifers, later as "springers", or even wait and sell them as pairs or 3 in 1's. He decides when to sell based on what will give him the most profit.

He has little input cost, since 400# heifers are not THAT expensive. Although the trend is changing, for a long time 400# heifers were a good bit cheaper than their steer and bull counterparts. The daily upkeep is not much, because none of them are lactating - so their nutritional requirements are lower than a normal cow.

The big thing that makes him succesful is his eye for small heifers. Not everyone can look at a 400# heifer and tell if she has the potential. Although he does have culls, he averages about 90% making it to breeding and sale age. These are premium bred heifers that command very good prices. I attribute this to his eye to details. I can't really pin one thing he does down, though. He's just one of those people that seem to turn everything to gold. (In my experience, it's the people that work the hardest that have the best "luck")

It is not uncommon for him to double (or sometimes much more) his initial investment.

So Brute, This is how he profits. He buys small heifers, develops them on grass, and sells them to cattlemen for $1200 & up. I wish I had his eye, maybe one day I will. Oh, by the way, he doesn't run cow/calf - he says there's not enough money in it ;-)

Exctly... what your dad and I are doing is the same thing. Mr Caustic seems to think it is not possible though.... :lol:

Like I have said I have my cown cow/ calf herd, then I take care of a few "ranches", then I have gotten buddy's and family members on board also to produce heifer calves of the quality I am looking for.
I go to them and buy their heifers at a little better than ring price. I show up with the trailers, help, and cash and take them off their hands.
I put them on my place, grow them out on mostly grass, and sell them using my name and connections. ALot of times I also send a little back to the owner based on what I get for their lot when they sell.
Sound familar.... other people do this also with steers, Camp Cooley does it with cattle also. I have had zero complaints from people that get heifers from. Its no extra work for them and they get more money.

 

[randiliana]

He buys weaned heifers (around the 400# range). Some from the stockyard, some from local people, whoever he can make deals with. He takes those heifers and raises them with a meticulous eye. Any that aren't doing well are culled and sent to the sale barn as stockers. Since black is king in our area, he mostly buys Brangus and Angus commerical heifers with the occasional black baldy thrown in.

Exctly... what your dad and I are doing is the same thing. Mr Caustic seems to think it is not possible though.... :lol:

And this is why I would rather keep my own heifers than buy replacements. Sure some of those 400 lb heifers will go on to be good, productive cows. But a lot of them won't. Unless things are a LOT different down there, those 400 lb heifers are 5-7 months old when you buy them. That is not good enough in my book. Especially when you end up buying them for $1200 then culling 1/3 to 1/2 out and only getting $500 (or less).

We have bought a lot of 'trader' cattle over the last 10 years. I have seen both the good and the bad. Some groups work out well, and in 4 years you still have almost all of them. Some don't. Try buying 20 bred heifers for $1300 and then having 5 left 2 years later!! Not only that, but they didn't raise a calf (300 -400 lbs) and didn't for the most part breed back. We got lucky that year, got $900 for the dry's. But a year later and we would have been sitting on 15 open 3 year olds.

So to me it DOES pay to keep our own replacements. I know the cow, the production and the sire. I can breed them how I want, and get 500 lb calves out of them rather than 400 lb calves. Right now I can buy bred heifers for $800 - $1000. BUT, if she loses her calf, she is immediately worth less than 1/2 that. If she raises 1 calf, but it turns out to be a runt, she is worth even less, cause she will usually be thinner. Her calf may help offset that, but I have to pay to feed her from the time I bought her til I can sell her.

 

[randiliana]

Well, all this talk got me doing some figureing. Here is what I figure it takes for us to raise a replacement from weaning to selling the calf.

* Includes trucking

We wean in October, and the calves will be on feed until about May.
Oct - May = 210 days
18 lbs hay @ $75/ton = $.034 = $.61/day
4 lbs grain @ $80/ton = $.04 = $.16/day
grand total = $.77 x 210 = $161.70

Graze heifers
May to Oct = 150 days x $.75/day = 112.5
Breeding = $30

Fall Graze
Oct to Jan = 90 days x $.60 = $54

Feed
Jan - May = 150 days
25 lbs hay @ $75/ton = $.034 = $.85
grand total = $.85 x 150 = $127.50

Graze
May to Oct = 150 days x $1.00* = $150

Grand Total
161.7 + 112.5 + 54 + 127.5 + 150 + 30= $635.7
Plus $500 to buy this heifer from the cow OR you could figure from Oct to Oct.

Fall graze
Oct to Jan = 90 days x .60 = $54

Feed
Jan to May = 150 Days
30 lbs hay @ $75/ton = $.034 = $1.02
150 x $1.02 = $153

Graze
May to Oct = 150 days
150 x $1.00*/day = $150

Total = $357

So $635 to raise the heifer + $357 for the cow cost = $992
OR
$635 + $500 (to buy the heifer) = $1135

Now I could go out and buy a heifer for $1100
So from the day I buy her I have to pay for her feed. For every month she is costing me $26, to feed hay. In the spring, I haul her up to pasture with her calf and graze her til October. This costs me $1.00/day (includes trucking), so that comes to $150. Now say I bought her in Feb (which is unusual her, most cows here are bought/sold before Jan) So I feed her for 3 months = $75, Plus the grazing of $150 = $225.

You have just added $225 to the original $1100 that you paid for the heifer. She has now gone up to $1325. So in essence, I can raise my own (even if I actually bought her from the cow) for $1135, that goes right through til October when we would sell the calf. OR I could spend $1100 on a bred one, then pay to feed her from Feb to Oct, and then I can sell that calf. I would have to buy that heifer for $910 (in Feb) in order for her to have cost me the same by weaning as the heifer I raised. And, I KNOW that I cannot buy the quality that I can RAISE for $910. Even $1100 makes it hard.

Now, I know I didn't add in labour, or use of the tractor, but even so I don't think I would make things work out too much different. As well, these are the actual cost of hay, grain and pasture for us.