heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

[Sir Loin]

CB,
WHAT?

Cow has a calf that you decide to retain, now the Dam has not returned anything to the bootm line for two years.

I have no idea what you are saying with that.

The heifer you have decided to retain will not return anything to the bottom line for two years as well.

Why is that? How do you figure?

Where are you putting the dividing line between the momma and the heifer? I put it at weaning, which is generally around 8 months of age for a heifer I intend to keep as a replacement.

Let's start over.
The rule of thumb to maintain a cow for a year is $500. (Which INCLUDES land cost and before taxes)
The rule of thumb for a calf when it hits the ground is worth $500 and reflects the investment in the cow for the previous year to produce that (one) calf.
The rule of thumb is that a calf will gain 100 pounds per month and each and every pound is worth $1.00.
OK got it!
Now using those numbers:
Your cow has a calf and it only cost you the $500 it cost you to maintain the cow.
You leave the calf on the cow until weaning at around 8 months @ around 800 pounds and she is now worth $800, but you decide not to sell her and keep her for a replacement. And as the calf was on the cow for the entire 8 months your cost is still only $500.
Ttheoretically you have already made $300 because you can not buy an 800 lb heifer for $500.
And at 8 months/800lbs that heifer is most likely ready to be breed and she is now in production for next year.
Now as for the cow not "returned anything to the bootm line for two years " she is the one who has been feeding this heifer for the last 8 months and has been breed back and is already producing next year's bottom line.

So where are you getting this 2 year crap?

For you micro managers:
How do you compute the worth of a calf in the womb but not born until next year while the cow is still raising this years calf?
SL

 

[Wewild]

This weight info is not suprising as we have done this for years. I just want them to have a calf that they raise and we sale. It is the same for folks that buy that heifer from someone else. It seems that if they can raise them and sell them that I can raise them and keep them a little cheaper if I do it better.

We don't consider first calf heifer babies as keepers as some on here do.

 

[Sir Loin]

Wewild,

How right you are!
Personally I think weather the first time heifer is breed on her first, second or third heat, also has a lot to do with it.
SL

 

[Wewild]

Wewild,

How right you are!
Personally I think weather the first time heifer is breed on her first, second or third heat, also has a lot to do with it.
SL

I'm not sure I understand that. If that don't calve before the end of Feb they seem to grow wheels.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

I've never specifically bought a "heifer bull," or even used one. I've also never had one that wasn't about at or below breed average for BW EPD. So since my heifers are bred to the same bull my cows are bred to, I consider the genetic potential of their calves to be just as great, and if I have done my job right, greater. My heifers are the product of my breeding decisions, and if those decisions were the right ones, the heifers should be a greater genetic package than their dams.

I have learned to be cautious about making bold statements, but I am thankful that to date I've not pulled a calf in the past six or seven years. I prefer to have cows that are capable of having a fair sized calf, even as heifers.

To address the specific original topic, I've had the same cow bred to the same bull wean a lighter second calf than first calf, both bull calves. There was only about a 20# difference. I chalk the difference up to rainfall and pasture conditions from one year to the next. Nevertheless, I've typically seen more of a 25# heavier second calf as opposed to first calf. Again this may be due to the fact that the heifers are bred the same as the cows.

I also believe that the cow has more input into BW than the bull. I've got a cow whose calves have never varied more than a pound from 75# regardless of sex. She is now seven.

 

[Wewild]

I've never specifically bought a "heifer bull," or even used one. I've also never had one that wasn't about at or below breed average for BW EPD. So since my heifers are bred to the same bull my cows are bred to, I consider the genetic potential of their calves to be just as great, and if I have done my job right, greater. My heifers are the product of my breeding decisions, and if those decisions were the right ones, the heifers should be a greater genetic package than their dams.

I have learned to be cautious about making bold statements, but I am thankful that to date I've not pulled a calf in the past six or seven years. I prefer to have cows that are capable of having a fair sized calf, even as heifers.

To address the specific original topic, I've had the same cow bred to the same bull wean a lighter second calf than first calf, both bull calves. There was only about a 20# difference. I chalk the difference up to rainfall and pasture conditions from one year to the next. Nevertheless, I've typically seen more of a 25# heavier second calf as opposed to first calf. Again this may be due to the fact that the heifers are bred the same as the cows.

I also believe that the cow has more input into BW than the bull. I've got a cow whose calves have never varied more than a pound from 75# regardless of sex. She is now seven.

I belive it maybe as CB said ... maybe it's their teeth. I don't know. Sometimes they aren't runt. Most time they are.

We always get us a angus bull or a Red Poll bull. Them Lim's spit them out with no problems.

 

[Caustic Burno]

CB,
WHAT?

Cow has a calf that you decide to retain, now the Dam has not returned anything to the bootm line for two years.

I have no idea what you are saying with that.

The heifer you have decided to retain will not return anything to the bottom line for two years as well.

Why is that? How do you figure?

Where are you putting the dividing line between the momma and the heifer? I put it at weaning, which is generally around 8 months of age for a heifer I intend to keep as a replacement.

Let's start over.
The rule of thumb to maintain a cow for a year is $500. (Which INCLUDES land cost and before taxes)
The rule of thumb for a calf when it hits the ground is worth $500 and reflects the investment in the cow for the previous year to produce that (one) calf.
The rule of thumb is that a calf will gain 100 pounds per month and each and every pound is worth $1.00.
OK got it!
Now using those numbers:
Your cow has a calf and it only cost you the $500 it cost you to maintain the cow.
You leave the calf on the cow until weaning at around 8 months @ around 800 pounds and she is now worth $800, but you decide not to sell her and keep her for a replacement. And as the calf was on the cow for the entire 8 months your cost is still only $500.
Ttheoretically you have already made $300 because you can not buy an 800 lb heifer for $500.
And at 8 months/800lbs that heifer is most likely ready to be breed and she is now in production for next year.
Now as for the cow not "returned anything to the bootm line for two years " she is the one who has been feeding this heifer for the last 8 months and has been breed back and is already producing next year's bottom line.

So where are you getting this 2 year crap?

For you micro managers:
How do you compute the worth of a calf in the womb but not born until next year while the cow is still raising this years calf?
SL

How many calves do your cows have a year? Mine ony have one.
You retained a heifer so the dam returned nothing to the bottom line the first year. It will be another year before she calves again so there is two years you paid to upkeep a cow that has not returned a dime to the operation. Even after the cow calves you have another 205 days before the calf is ready to sell, finally the cow has a payday.
Now the heifer gets a free pass for the first 205 days as she is living off the dam. At 206 days now the heifer is costing to maintain she has another 160 days leaching off the operation and is not ready to breed . Now you have another 60 days before she is ready to breed and another 283 brfore you get a calf(maybe). If you get a live calf your 205 days away from her contributing to the bottom line.

You can't do that on 500 dollars.

 

[TexLonghornRanch]

A ranch is run on cash flow. CB is right.

Cow makes replacement heifer = 2 years NO $$$$ from either animal.

Now take two production Cows for two years = 4 calves. 4 calves = $$$

It's simple ROG! (return on grass)

Cow/heifer - Fed 2 animals for two years - no return on grass!
Cow/Cow - Fed 2 animals for two years - 4 calves for sale. $$$

 

[TexLonghornRanch]

The best strategy to maintain cash flow and ROG is the pick off 3n1cows with a heifer calf on her side that "could be" a replacement heifer or a extra pay check to "pay the way" of another replacement. I always get my best deals with 3n1 cows.

 

[dun]

If my heifers were weaning the same weight calf as the rest of the cow herd I'ld be concerned about the cow herd. A heifer is still growing, shedding teeth, etc. and hasn;t fully developed her milking abiltys. If a heifer would be expected to wean the same size calf there wouldn;t be adjustments made for WW based on the dams age.

 

[Brute 23]

How many calves do your cows have a year? Mine ony have one.
You retained a heifer so the dam returned nothing to the bottom line the first year. It will be another year before she calves again so there is two years you paid to upkeep a cow that has not returned a dime to the operation. Even after the cow calves you have another 205 days before the calf is ready to sell, finally the cow has a payday.
You can't do that on 500 dollars.

I don't get the two year skip by keeping replacements? :???: While the replacement heifer is growning there is another baking in the oven. Your not waiting for the heifer to grow before the cow gets bred again.

IF you have a calf in Jan of 07, that cow will have another calf in Jan of 08, and another in Jan of 09.
IF you kept the 08 heifer than technically you are out $100-200 profit from that calf for that year and that year only. The 07 calf will be sold and the 09 calf. Where is the two year skip?

Also when you consider you only acuallly profit $100-200 a calf. IF a cow costs you $1500 and you can raise a heifer for $1,000 you acually saved $300-400 dollars that year. Those are perfect numbers of coarse that do not account for dry heifers, ect... but the point is still the same.

What am I missing? :|

 

[ND Angus]

Quality Purebred Angus cows and Purebred Angus bulls create quality heifers that go to work for me. Our heifers are now at 1250lbs , and 11 to 12 months old, and wont be bred until April 20th. They will wean off a 750 to 800lb calf. YES there maybe that 600 lber in the group this fall but we don't really worry about it. It is what it is.You keep your heifers because they are the best don't you? And if they struggle raising a decent calf ??????? I also think we need to keep in mind the location of where some of these cattle are being raise. Here in ND things are way different than in Texas.

I take what dun said kind of personal , saying he'd be concerned about the cow herd if the heifer raised the same weight calf. .. Yes a heifer is still growing but I raise quality cattle not quantity. It isn't always the biggest cow that raises the biggest calf. This year we had a set of twins on a second calver. She raised them all summer and weaned off 2 nice 625/lb bull calves . Quality cattle.

 

[Caustic Burno]

How many calves do your cows have a year? Mine ony have one.
You retained a heifer so the dam returned nothing to the bottom line the first year. It will be another year before she calves again so there is two years you paid to upkeep a cow that has not returned a dime to the operation. Even after the cow calves you have another 205 days before the calf is ready to sell, finally the cow has a payday.
You can't do that on 500 dollars.

I don't get the two year skip by keeping replacements? :???: While the replacement heifer is growning there is another baking in the oven. Your not waiting for the heifer to grow before the cow gets bred again.

IF you have a calf in Jan of 07, that cow will have another calf in Jan of 08, and another in Jan of 09.
IF you kept the 08 heifer than technically you are out $100-200 profit from that calf for that year and that year only. The 07 calf will be sold and the 09 calf. Where is the two year skip?

Also when you consider you only acuallly profit $100-200 a calf. IF a cow costs you $1500 and you can raise a heifer for $1,000 you acually saved $300-400 dollars that year. Those are perfect numbers of coarse that do not account for dry heifers, ect... but the point is still the same.

What am I missing? :|

The Cow returns nothing to the bottom line for two years. You are right about if calf in 07 she will have another in 08 the last time that cow gave you a payday was in 06. You kept the 07 calf. The heifer that was born in 07 will be 09 before she gives you a payday.

 

[dun]

I take what dun said kind of personal , saying he'd be concerned about the cow herd if the heifer raised the same weight calf. .. Yes a heifer is still growing but I raise quality cattle not quantity. It isn't always the biggest cow that raises the biggest calf. This year we had a set of twins on a second calver. She raised them all summer and weaned off 2 nice 625/lb bull calves . Quality cattle.

Don;t take it personal. If the heifers that are still growing and haven't fully developed raise the same size calf as the mature cows, that would indicate to me that the cows aren't as capable of raising a big calf as the heifers will be when the heifers mature. I just happen to be one of those that doesn;t believe that bigger is alwasy better. We aren;t chasing bigger and bigger WW and YW weights. We don;t creep or supplement unless the winter is really awfull, then it's mix30 and whatever hay we have and what little grass they can grub up. Our heifers don;t gain much over the winter. They wean in the 600s as yealring they're in the 900s and calf as 2 year olds around 1150-1250 and wean that first calf typically in the high 500s or low 600s. The next calf will usually wean mid 600s to mid 700s. That's about what the mature cow herd weans depending on the bull we used.
But, that's what works for us in our environement with our high endophyte fescue forage and hay.

 

[dun]

The Cow returns nothing to the bottom line for two years. You are right about if calf in 07 she will have another in 08 the last time that cow gave you a payday was in 06. You kept the 07 calf. The heifer that was born in 07 will be 09 before she gives you a payday.

But the cow only didn;t contribute to the bottom line for one year.
Cow "A" calves in 05 and breeds back on time, you sell the 05 calf, she calves again in 06 and you sell that calf also. So that's 2 calves that contributed to the bottom line.
Cow "B" calves in 05 and breeds back on time, you keepl the 05 calf, she calves again in 06 and you sell that calf. So that's 1 calf that contributed to the bottom line.
I'm pretty poor with math skills but that works out to me to only being 1 calf difference in 2 years.

 

[Caustic Burno]

The Cow returns nothing to the bottom line for two years. You are right about if calf in 07 she will have another in 08 the last time that cow gave you a payday was in 06. You kept the 07 calf. The heifer that was born in 07 will be 09 before she gives you a payday.

But the cow only didn;t contribute to the bottom line for one year.
Cow "A" calves in 05 and breeds back on time, you sell the 05 calf, she calves again in 06 and you sell that calf also. So that's 2 calves that contributed to the bottom line.
Cow "B" calves in 05 and breeds back on time, you keepl the 05 calf, she calves again in 06 and you sell that calf. So that's 1 calf that contributed to the bottom line.
I'm pretty poor with math skills but that works out to me to only being 1 calf difference in 2 years.

No matter how you want to look at it you have 730 days upkeep in a cow before she returns to the bottom line versus 365. You have 500 days upkeep in the retained heifer before she calfs and another 205 days in her after until she returns to the bottom line. You retain the heifer she gets a pass on the first 205 days.
Ok off she goes to the weaning pen until 14 months thats 220 days upkeep until she is ready to breed.
Now you have another 283 days upkeep waiting on the calf. There is still another 205 days upkeep before she gives you a return.

 

[dun]

No matter how you want to look at it you have 730 days upkeep in a cow before she returns to the bottom line versus 365. You have 500 days upkeep in the retained heifer before she calfs and another 205 days in her after until she returns to the bottom line. You retain the heifer she gets a pass on the first 205 days.
Ok off she goes to the weaning pen until 14 months thats 220 days upkeep until she is ready to breed.
Now you have another 283 days upkeep waiting on the calf. There is still another 205 days upkeep before she gives you a return.

That 730 days is the cow, the heifer you retained is a totally different deal. The cow give you one payday instead of 2. If you bought a weaned heifer and kept her you would preobably be out more dollars on that time frame to pay for herself.
But I'm an advocate of retaining heifers from cows that have proven they can produce in my environment under my managment. Of the heifers we've retained that were born from our herd we have yet to get a dud. From cows we've bought and heifers born somewhere else we're only running around 75% that make it.

 

[Caustic Burno]

There is nothing wrong with retaining the heifer if that is what you want to do. They do come at a high cost . Everyday a cow is standing in the pasture she has a cost to maintain. The heifer is not free by any means. The loss gets even greater as you have a 10% loss factor on the calfs anyway.

 

[dun]

Have you noticed that you and I can argue a subject that we disagree on and not start name calling no matter how obstinate (bull headed) we think the other is?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Have you noticed that you and I can argue a subject that we disagree on and not start name calling no matter how obstinate (bull headed) we think the other is?

Yes Sir I have.
In my case it is out of total respect for your knowledge.