heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

[Brute 23]

Its getting deep, get out the waders. :lol2:

IF you can buy heifers of the same or better quality than what your heard is now for less than you can raise them...
1) your herd is most likely junk
2) you need to re-evaluate how much you put into you animals because it is obviously way too much if Joe Heifer Seller can sell them for less and make money off you.
3) OR, you have a hook up.

 

[cypressfarms]

IF you can buy heifers of the same or better quality than what your heard is now for less than you can raise them

Brute,

How do you calculate the cost of a heifer that you raised versus a "store" bought one?

 

[KNERSIE]

I don't want to speak on behalf of Caustic, but I think the point he tried to make was that if you compare the cost (and also the opportunity cost) of retaining your own heifers compared to buying either heavy bred or 3 in 1 middle aged cows (which you would normally get cheaper per pound than virgin heifers) you'll be money ahead on the cows compared to retained heifers in a COMMERCIAL operation where calves are sold by the pound to the feedlot.

If genetic progress is the goal, especially in a purebred operation, the whole cost structure varies greatly. I for one cannot afford to gamble my genetic progress on the high priced culls of another purebred breeder. I can raise a replacement heifer of my desired quality, type and genetics for less money than I would need to fork out to buy a similar heifer on someone else's production sale. Hopefully the premium I get when selling bulls or heifers for replacement purposes can offset the cost of retaining my own heifers.

I use the same bulls on heifers as I use on cows and select for moderate BW (around breed average), very seldom have calving difficulties out of my own heifers, I am a believer in the fact that a purebred heifer should be able to have a calf of breed average size and weight unassisted if she is to be an asset to the breed. Even though I am breeding for higher milk production the average first calver will wean a calf that is lighter (often very little) than the average for the rest of the herd. That happens industry wide in cows younger than 5 and older than 10, hence the reason for the adjustment for age.

 

[bigbull338]

i can buy replacement cows cheaper than i can raise heifers.with a heifer you have to wait 2 to 3 years for her to have the 1st calf.getting a heifer from weaning to calving will cost roughly $600 a hd more or less.well my weaned heifers have a value of $800 or more right off the cow.so add those 2 figures an thats $1400.i can buy a cow for $1500 to $2000.an in 3yrs make $2700 fore the raised heifer has her 1st calf.so im ahead $1200.take this year i sold 2 heifers.i can buy a cow with that money an be $800 ahead again before winter.still have 2 bull calves on cows now.they will be weaned early to mid summer.1 will be sent to the sale.an 1 maybe kept to raise out.cashflows enough to buy 3 or 4 more cows this year.all from calf sales.so you tell me wich is better buying or raising your replacements.as yall can see im rolling things over pretty quick.

 

[Sir Loin]

Arkieman
Hold the phone pea brain! This old senile syphilitic SOB has something to say here.
Re:

In my little pea-sized brain I have to think about it in real time. In Jan 2008 you retain your heifer calf. She will bring you a calf in 2011.

Jan 1 you retain a heifer. She is just weaned and 8 months old and comes in heat within 60 days. So she breeds the end of Feb 2008 and gives birth the end of NOV 2008.
How in the world do you get 2011?
What was she doing in 2008 2009 and 2010? Off at collage??????? Or on vacation?
SL
Bigbull.
Re:

i can buy replacement cows cheaper than i can raise heifers.with a heifer you have to wait 2 to 3 years for her to have the 1st calf.

Dittos to you!
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

O.k. I'll try to explain, although many people have explained it already:

You have a cow, lets call her A. A costs you $500 to keep up for the whole year. Whether A has been a good girl and calved, or if she came up open, she's still costing you $500 a year. This cost is a fixed cost from the respect that you will have to spend a certain amount to upkeep cattle. Money for medecine, hay, etc. So regardless of anything else old A costs you $500 a year.

OK so far I agree!
Re:

Now you finally got A bred and she has a heifer calf that we'll name B. A had B in March 2007 and after 205 days B is weaned. At this point you could sell B and use that money to offset the upkeep of her mother A.

True!
Re:

Say B looked so nice, that you had to keep her as a "replacement" heifer. You brought her back from the auction to keep.
&
No problem, but you do not realize the $600 sale. You get no money for B at that point.

CASH money! No you do not get any CASH money for the heifer!
But you do get an increase in your inventory valued at $600 that offsets the cost of cow A, and a profit of $100, but it's not CASH. It's simply an asset that you could use as collateral.

If what you are saying were true then a cow, with calf by her side, would be worth no more then a cow with no calf!
Why does a cow, with a calf by her side, sell for more then a cow with no calf by her side?
Is it not because of the value of the calf?
If not, then why is it?
SL

 

[Sir Loin]

cypressfarms
Re:

How do you calculate the cost of a heifer that you raised versus a "store" bought one?

In layman's terms, there is no cost of raising a heifer, bull or steer, up until you wean the animal.
All the cost are borne/attributed to the cow, provided you don't creep feed or medicate and/or precondition.
So in fact, if you wean a heifer at 8 months (800 lbs), she has no cost borne/attributed to her but has a value of around $800.
Where as a "store bought one" has a cost of $800.

How do you calculate the cost of a bull calf that you raise, up until weaning, provided you don't creep feed or medicate and/or precondition?
SL

 

[Brute 23]

Ya its not rocket science. If you keep good books it should be a matter of typing in a couple of numbers.

IF you start from the day you would have sold that heifer at the ring or what ever and calculate how much feed, meds, tags, maybe labor. ect. goes into that heifer it comes out way cheaper for us to keep them. You have to feed alot to run up over a grand in one animal.

I mark my feed reciets from the feed store. Alot of them have the property name like Creek Ranch, or Heifers, calves, ect.. so I know which spread sheet to put it under on the computer.

IF you have 10 heifers... 10 @ $1K = $10K
feed 20-$50 bales in the winter for 3 winters...
feed the group a sack of cubes every weekend for 3 years...

20 x 50 = 1000 x 3 = 3000
52 x 6.5 = 338 x 3 = 1014

You are only at $3104... that allows you $6896 more dollars in expences (meds, labor, ect..) to raise. That is $310 a head to raise when that same animal would have cost you $1K.

IF you have any doubts just keep 10 heaifers one time and see. Keep good books and see how much it actually costs you to raise them until they produce a calf. ITs that easy. People make this stuff seem way harder than it is.

 

[ALX.]

Have you noticed that you and I can argue a subject that we disagree on and not start name calling no matter how obstinate (bull headed) we think the other is?

Hmmm, dun and Caustic smoochin, maybe we now know where Hollywood got that Brokeback Mountain idea!!

Although retaining heifers is largely a business decision there are few who raise them to the standards of people who raise replacements for that purpose. I think some folks just play and pretend and don't know exactly what it takes to raise good replacements or the cost involved.

And to the quality cattle guy who all the physiological rules of the universe doesn't apply to his quality cattle, we'll be seein ya down the road! :lol2:

For cypress
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 91-067.htm

 

[dun]

Ya its not rocket science. If you keep good books it should be a matter of typing in a couple of numbers.

IF you start from the day you would have sold that heifer at the ring or what ever and calculate how much feed, meds, tags, maybe labor. ect. goes into that heifer it comes out way cheaper for us to keep them. You have to feed alot to run up over a grand in one animal.

I mark my feed reciets from the feed store. Alot of them have the property name like Creek Ranch, or Heifers, calves, ect.. so I know which spread sheet to put it under on the computer.

IF you have 10 heifers... 10 @ $1K = $10K
feed 20-$50 bales in the winter for 3 winters...
feed the group a sack of cubes every weekend for 3 years...

20 x 50 = 1000 x 3 = 3000
52 x 6.5 = 338 x 3 = 1014

You are only at $3104... that allows you $6896 more dollars in expences (meds, labor, ect..) to raise. That is $310 a head to raise when that same animal would have cost you $1K.

IF you have any doubts just keep 10 heaifers one time and see. Keep good books and see how much it actually costs you to raise them until they produce a calf. ITs that easy. People make this stuff seem way harder than it is.

The part you left out is the pasture that she ate. When producers talk about a cow costing 375 a year the cost of that forage is a significant part.

 

[Brute 23]

Our heifers go onto hay patches that have already been cut. Plus we don't over stock so on good years we have room for extra head, those are good years to keep heifers.

IF you don't have the extra land then it is obviously not an option for you. YOu should keep buying from people like me because I have been making a killing of yall. :lol:

On places that we buy and are going to flip we buy heifers from a ranch with good cattle, usually some one I know. Pay a little better than ring price. Buy how ever many we can hold and try to make them about breeding age when we want to sell the property. Cut them loose, feed some cubes to keep or make them taim, put an add in the paper. Its money in the bank... :mrgreen: ... even have had people buy the property and the cattle on it. Easy money, low risk.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

The part you left out is the pasture that she ate. When producers talk about a cow costing 375 a year the cost of that forage is a significant part.

Here we go again!!
Should land cost/rental cost be included in that forage cost?
SL

 

[Brute 23]

Ya its not rocket science. If you keep good books it should be a matter of typing in a couple of numbers.

IF you start from the day you would have sold that heifer at the ring or what ever and calculate how much feed, meds, tags, maybe labor. ect. goes into that heifer it comes out way cheaper for us to keep them. You have to feed alot to run up over a grand in one animal.

I mark my feed reciets from the feed store. Alot of them have the property name like Creek Ranch, or Heifers, calves, ect.. so I know which spread sheet to put it under on the computer.

IF you have 10 heifers... 10 @ $1K = $10K
feed 20-$50 bales in the winter for 3 winters...
feed the group a sack of cubes every weekend for 3 years...

20 x 50 = 1000 x 3 = 3000
52 x 6.5 = 338 x 3 = 1014

You are only at $3104... that allows you $6896 more dollars in expences (meds, labor, ect..) to raise. That is $310 a head to raise when that same animal would have cost you $1K.

IF you have any doubts just keep 10 heaifers one time and see. Keep good books and see how much it actually costs you to raise them until they produce a calf. ITs that easy. People make this stuff seem way harder than it is.

The part you left out is the pasture that she ate. When producers talk about a cow costing 375 a year the cost of that forage is a significant part.

Factor in the cost of what your pasture is worth and how much it will take to graze 10 head... Lets see that figure also.

 

[Brute 23]

Re:

The part you left out is the pasture that she ate. When producers talk about a cow costing 375 a year the cost of that forage is a significant part.

Here we go again!!
Should land cost/rental cost be included in that forage cost?
SL

Yup... here come 10,000 excusses from people why it doesn't work for so and so (Not picking on dun, he is just making sure every thing gets accounted for. YOu need people like that.) and because the can't make keeping replacement work for them then obviously no one else can either.... :lol2:

 

[bigbull338]

i just done some quick figuring.its costing me $1.50 hd a day to carry the 2 heifers i sold.so using that plus another say ,.50 a day im up to $2 a day pre hd if i kept emm.now when they calve said heifer is gonna cost $2000.now add in the missed calves for 3yrs thats $2700.a $2000 cow has cleared $235 a yr for said 3yrs,while the heifer in 3yrs is $0 clearing.think on those figures.now im basing it on reg cow prices.raising comm heifers is the same.so buying a top comm cow would be $1500.here payoff would be 3 calves at $650 a hd a yr.means comm cow have $150 profit pre calf.comm heifer cost $2000 to raise.

 

[Brute 23]

Two dollars a day seems high bigbull338. What were they getting?

We can feed grain and hay and only go $1.09 a day.

 

[dun]

Yup... here come 10,000 excusses from people why it doesn't work for so and so (Not picking on dun, he is just making sure every thing gets accounted for. YOu need people like that.) and because the can't make keeping replacement work for them then obviously no one else can either.... :lol2:

Didin;t say it didn;t work, but you have to figure all of the costs. For what you feed that heifer could be fed to another animal that would be sold. That makes her feed a cost.
If you'll notice, I'm an advocate of keeping my own replacements. The only costs that are differnt then a bought heifer is the feed from weaning till yearling which is the age we buy most heifers. The frequently touted 3 in 1s are cows I probably wouldn;t want. I can count on one hand the 3 in 1s I've seen for sale in many years. Folks around here don;t sell them very often. Besides, as little as I sleep at night, calving heifers isn;t a problem.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Two dollars a day seems high bigbull338. What were they getting?

We can feed grain and hay and only go $1.09 a day.

So you have well over a 1000 dollars in your heifers as well at a 1.09 a day upkeep.

 

[cypressfarms]

For cypress
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/liv ... 91-067.htm

Thanks ALX for the site. I read a good bit every chance I get to improve my management of the cattle. I'm a firm believer that anyone can improve (and learn) regardless of how long they've been doing something.

Here's the big difference between me and that article: I don't feed my heifers - it costs entirely too much. All of the heifers that I retain - which by the way I do retain some heifers like Dun, must be able to make it on grass alone. I also determine the time to breed based on the heifers size - if they are doing well I may breed at 12 to 13 months. If they are a little slower on just grass I may wait until 14 or 15 months. I give them the best pastures, and this is where Canada will differ from me. In south Louisiana you can grass almost year round if the rains hit right. I've been grazing ryegrass for almost two weeks now. Having said that - the reason for the thread was to discuss the "hidden" costs of heifers, and I do believe that this thread has been fruitful. We have found out that heifers' first calves do not wean calves as heavy (which means lost revenue) as 2nd and 3rd timers. At least we've stimulated discussion as to what point is keeping heifers un-economical.

I'm lucky in that my dad raises replacements. I can buy 20 from him now for $1000 each. More than half have already calved. Not everyone has that luxury. As times get tight - which it looks like they will - cattlemen will have to get down to brass tacks to make a profit. The only way to make more pofit is to put in less input (costs), and get more outputs - or both. With what appears to happen with corn in the future, I'm buckling down already in preparation.


By the way - I don't judge anyone for keeping replacements or buying them. There are merits to both sides. I've always been the debater type. Give me a side and I'll argue it - whether I agree with or not does not matter. I found a long time ago that your much better off putting yourself in other people's shoes as frequently as possible. Although I've heard that Caustic's shoes are kind of rank :wave:

 

[TexasBred]

Cypress....very very good post. Sometimes it's good for everyone concerned to have someone play the devil's advocate just to keep everyone on their toes and maybe even get them out of a rutt. Good job. :clap: