heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

[dun]

Have you noticed that you and I can argue a subject that we disagree on and not start name calling no matter how obstinate (bull headed) we think the other is?

Yes Sir I have.
In my case it is out of total respect for your knowledge.

Bull, I tink it's just an age thing! Two crusty ol pharts, noy exactly like "Grumpy Old Men" but not far from it.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Have you noticed that you and I can argue a subject that we disagree on and not start name calling no matter how obstinate (bull headed) we think the other is?

Yes Sir I have.
In my case it is out of total respect for your knowledge.

Bull, I tink it's just an age thing! Two crusty ol pharts, noy exactly like "Grumpy Old Men" but not far from it.

Now thats funny
I still can't afford to PO off my resource center for when I get stumped.

 

[ND Angus]

dun

Your heifers are weaning calves off at low 600's and cows at mid 700's . This year our herd average , cows and heifers, was 870lbs. And you said my " cows aren't capable" ? I just dont see things your way I guess.

 

[dun]

dun

Your heifers are weaning calves off at low 600's and cows at mid 700's . This year our herd average , cows and heifers, was 870lbs. And you said my " cows aren't capable" ? I just dont see things your way I guess.

If a heifer without supplements weans a calf as heavy as the mature cows, why aren't the cows weaning heavier calves? With a different forage base and without supplement I have no idea what our cows would be capable of, heifers either for that matter. I do know that our cows and heifers are typically weaning heivier calves then the majority of the producers around here that don;t supplement.

 

[cypressfarms]

dun

Your heifers are weaning calves off at low 600's and cows at mid 700's . This year our herd average , cows and heifers, was 870lbs. And you said my " cows aren't capable" ? I just dont see things your way I guess.

ND,

A heifer is still growing while raising a calf. That's a huge drain on her. Once that same heifer reaches mature size, she should be able to contribute 100% of her enery to the growth of a calf (since she only needs enough energy to maintain now) - That's how I look at it. I don't think there was anything personal about it.

Sir Loin - 8 month's rebreeding? - Go back to the books.

A cow has a fixed cost to keep. This fixed cost exists if you decide to sell her offspring or not. I believe Caustic was trying to explain that when you decide to not sell (retain that heifer), it will come at a higher cost than seems apparent - which is true - it's not just the $300 that Sir Loin calculated.

I agree with Dun's point that with retained heifers you have a higher % of keepers, I'm just not sure at what point does the lower weaning weight and risked calving difficulty change that decision.

 

[dun]

I agree with Dun's point that with retained heifers you have a higher % of keepers, I'm just not sure at what point does the lower weaning weight and risked calving difficulty change that decision.

I'm sure this will start another firestorm. Reatined heifers that are from well selected cows, sired by a well selected bull and bred to a well selected bull shouldn;t have anymore calving problems then the cows.
If the heifers dam calved easily as a heifer and as a cow and her half sisters sired by her sire calved easily there is no reason she shouldn;t do the same.
BTW, your explanation of the heifer to cow weaning weight deal was what I was trying to say, you just got to it without all the rambling that I did.

 

[ND Angus]

dun, Your looking at it backward. Why don't your heifers do better? You keep questioning the mature cows . IF you could get a heifer to wean a calf as good as your mature cow I would think you would be pretty happy or but your telling me you would then question the mature cows of your herd? In the end most heifers do have a smaller calf, but in our herd , at weaning time you can't pick out the heifers calves . Through years of hard culling and good gentics we have done very well. With that I'm leaving this topic alone.

 

[cypressfarms]

I'm sure this will start another firestorm. Reatined heifers that are from well selected cows, sired by a well selected bull and bred to a well selected bull shouldn;t have anymore calving problems then the cows.
If the heifers dam calved easily as a heifer and as a cow and her half sisters sired by her sire calved easily there is no reason she shouldn;t do the same.

I like to think of it as a line graph. There is a line where each cow will have calving problems. If they have had previous calves, then they are lower - and less likely to have problems. If it's a heifer bread to a pallet headed charolais with high BW, then even the best of selected heifers would cross the line. I believe we all can agree that heifers, in general, are more likely to have calving problems than cows. The important point is how close are they to the calving difficulty line.

Dun,

Let's assume that your selected heifers are better than what you could find elsewhere. If they throw 1st calves that are 50 to 100 pounds lighter at weaning you basically break even that year on her. Is it worth it to keep a calf for three years without profit ?

 

[dun]

I like to think of it as a line graph. There is a line where each cow will have calving problems. If they have had previous calves, then they are lower - and less likely to have problems. If it's a heifer bread to a pallet headed charolais with high BW, then even the best of selected heifers would cross the line. I believe we all can agree that heifers, in general, are more likely to have calving problems than cows. The important point is how close are they to the calving difficulty line.

That's where proper selection gets into it. Proper selection has to carry through from the dam the sire and the bull the heifer is bred to. If I was using that kind of a bull I woldn;t retain any heifers, for that matter I probably wouldn;t keep any cows either.

Let's assume that your selected heifers are better than what you could find elsewhere. If they throw 1st calves that are 50 to 100 pounds lighter at weaning you basically break even that year on her. Is it worth it to keep a calf for three years without profit ?

I don;t think I can buy heifers as good as I can produce myself. History has shown me that the heifers we retain will have a much higher rate of retention till 7-8 or older then the ones we buy.

 

[Brute 23]

It is flat and simple. This is being made way harder than it should.

Heifers first calves are smaller...

That is a proven deal because they are trying to grow themselves and raise a calf at the same time.

IF they have problems calving as a heifer they will go to the ring. We take some ease off by using a "heifer bull" but that same bull can be used on grown cattle and produce nice calves also.

I still don't get the two year loss... but I give up trying to explain it.

 

[Wewild]

This year our herd average , cows and heifers, was 870lbs. And you said my " cows aren't capable" ? I just dont see things your way I guess.

I thought you said you heifers would wean less than 800?

Here is is from just above.

Our heifers are now at 1250lbs , and 11 to 12 months old, and wont be bred until April 20th. They will wean off a 750 to 800lb calf. YES there maybe that 600 lber in the group this fall but we don't really worry about it.

It seems your heifers wean a much lighter calve than the older cows. As you have stated, it appears to be over 10% below the average.

Is that not what most folks have been saying?

 

[Sir Loin]

CB,
Re:

How many calves do your cows have a year? Mine ony have one.

Mine also for the most part have one per year but those cows that breed back in thirty plus days sometimes have two.
As we breed year round it is not uncommon for a cow to produce two calves per CALANDER year.
In addition while my cows are feeding a born calf up until weaning age ( 8 months), she is also in the process of producing her second calf.

Re:

You retained a heifer so the dam returned nothing to the bottom line the first year.

Wrong! The day the calf hits the ground she has added $500 to your bottom line.
Rule of thumb is that a calf born alive is worth $500.
The calf goes into your inventory as an asset worth $500.

If the calf is stolen or struck buy lightning your insurance Co. will pay you the valve of the calf ($500) no questions asked.
So for that first year, the day the calf hit the ground, the dam has made a return on the bottom line.
It doesn't matter if you retained the calf or sell it or collect insurance on it, the dam most defiantly gave you a return of $500 for that year on your bottom line.

I give up, I'm moving on!
SL

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Let's assume that your selected heifers are better than what you could find elsewhere. If they throw 1st calves that are 50 to 100 pounds lighter at weaning you basically break even that year on her. Is it worth it to keep a calf for three years without profit ?

You are missing the point - point being quality replacement heifers, raised properly don't raise a calf 50 - 100# lighter. The Simmental breed recognizes an average weight difference of a 2 - 2.5 yr old vs a mature cow is 48# heifer-67# bull. This is breed AVERAGE. I would hope that progressive breeders are better than breed average.
There is tons of research & articles trying to decide if it's better to raise a replacement or buy one. Really depends on the farm - but, i don't feel that anything I buy ever performs as consistantly as the ones we raise. Of course, I purchase PB cattle, and a lot of PB people "pamper" their herds. I take a pampered cow & put her in my PB commercial type operation, and they melt.

 

[dyates]

I just don't get the logic that it costs more to retain a heifer than it does to buy one. I actually lost sleep last night trying to figure out the math. I have that problem when I get something stuck in my head. After a whole lot of cipherin, I can only put it one way without writing any numbers. It costs Farmer B and Farmer A the same amount to get an animal to breeding age. Don't you think anyone who is finishing heifers is going to pass their cost on to you, plus a profit? If it really does cost more to produce a replacement than buy one, you have one of three problems. 1)You have an underpriced source of heifers that won't last long 2) Your inputs are way too expensive and drive up your finishing cost or 3)You have management issues that are eating up profits in other facets of your enterprise as well. :roll:

 

[Arkieman]

I just don't get the logic that it costs more to retain a heifer than it does to buy one. I actually lost sleep last night trying to figure out the math. I have that problem when I get something stuck in my head. After a whole lot of cipherin, I can only put it one way without writing any numbers. It costs Farmer B and Farmer A the same amount to get an animal to breeding age. Don't you think anyone who is finishing heifers is going to pass their cost on to you, plus a profit? If it really does cost more to produce a replacement than buy one, you have one of three problems. 1)You have an underpriced source of heifers that won't last long 2) Your inputs are way too expensive and drive up your finishing cost or 3)You have management issues that are eating up profits in other facets of your enterprise as well. :roll:

In my little pea-sized brain I have to think about it in real time. In Jan 2008 you retain your heifer calf. She will bring you a calf in 2011. You have no purchase price, but her expenses to raise. For about 3 years she does nothing but add expense to your farm.
HOWEVER, if I purchase a replacement in Jan 2008, I do have her purchase cost, but I also have income from her in 2008, 2009, 2010 (assuming she breeds in Jan/Feb). To me, by 2011 she has had 3 income producing years by the time the retained heifer gives you a $.

I understand the reasons for wanting to retain your own, but if I'm keeping something I'd rather it be contibuting to the bottom line sooner rather than later...
Is there a hole in my thought process??

 

[Caustic Burno]

I just don't get the logic that it costs more to retain a heifer than it does to buy one. I actually lost sleep last night trying to figure out the math. I have that problem when I get something stuck in my head. After a whole lot of cipherin, I can only put it one way without writing any numbers. It costs Farmer B and Farmer A the same amount to get an animal to breeding age. Don't you think anyone who is finishing heifers is going to pass their cost on to you, plus a profit? If it really does cost more to produce a replacement than buy one, you have one of three problems. 1)You have an underpriced source of heifers that won't last long 2) Your inputs are way too expensive and drive up your finishing cost or 3)You have management issues that are eating up profits in other facets of your enterprise as well. :roll:

In my little pea-sized brain I have to think about it in real time. In Jan 2008 you retain your heifer calf. She will bring you a calf in 2011. You have no purchase price, but her expenses to raise. For about 3 years she does nothing but add expense to your farm.
HOWEVER, if I purchase a replacement in Jan 2008, I do have her purchase cost, but I also have income from her in 2008, 2009, 2010 (assuming she breeds in Jan/Feb). To me, by 2011 she has had 3 income producing years by the time the retained heifer gives you a $.

I understand the reasons for wanting to retain your own, but if I'm keeping something I'd rather it be contibuting to the bottom line sooner rather than later...
Is there a hole in my thought process??

We are on the same page.You have a dam that you have to upkeep for two years that doesn't return to the bottom line. That cost has to be charged somewhere.
You have a heifer that doesn't return anything to the bottom line for two years as well.
Or am I just to stupid to figure out how to keep cows for free.

 

[cypressfarms]

I just don't get the logic that it costs more to retain a heifer than it does to buy one. I actually lost sleep last night trying to figure out the math. I have that problem when I get something stuck in my head. After a whole lot of cipherin, I can only put it one way without writing any numbers. It costs Farmer B and Farmer A the same amount to get an animal to breeding age. Don't you think anyone who is finishing heifers is going to pass their cost on to you, plus a profit? If it really does cost more to produce a replacement than buy one, you have one of three problems. 1)You have an underpriced source of heifers that won't last long 2) Your inputs are way too expensive and drive up your finishing cost or 3)You have management issues that are eating up profits in other facets of your enterprise as well. :roll:

O.k. I'll try to explain, although many people have explained it already:

You have a cow, lets call her A. A costs you $500 to keep up for the whole year. Whether A has been a good girl and calved, or if she came up open, she's still costing you $500 a year. This cost is a fixed cost from the respect that you will have to spend a certain amount to upkeep cattle. Money for medecine, hay, etc. So regardless of anything else old A costs you $500 a year.

Now you finally got A bred and she has a heifer calf that we'll name B. A had B in March 2007 and after 205 days B is weaned. At this point you could sell B and use that money to offset the upkeep of her mother A. You run B through the auction and she has $600 bid for her. Excess money ($100) would be profit. Say B looked so nice, that you had to keep her as a "replacement" heifer. You brought her back from the auction to keep. No problem, but you do not realize the $600 sale. You get no money for B at that point. You also do not get to offset A's expense for 2007. At this point B is 205 days old. You put her in a special section of pasture to make sure she turns out right. You decide to breed her at 12 months, March 2008. B is now 365 days old, and you haven't made any money off of her. For 2007 you didn't make any money off of A either since you kept her calf. In March 2008 A has another calf and it's a bull, C, so you band it and 205 days later you sell it at the stockyard for $600. A has not made any GROSS revenue for you in 2007, but made $600 gross revenue ($100 net profit) in 2008. In effect, you lose out on $600 gross revenue when you decided to keep B in 2007. A is back to making money in 2008, since you sold her calf, C. So for A - you made money in 2006 (lets assume you sold a calf from her), you made nothing in 2007 (because you kept her heifer), and you made $600 gross revenue in 2008. A still costed you $500 each of those three years - so for 2006 to 2008 you made $1200 from the sale of her calves, but it cost you $1500 to keep A going.

Now on to B. At 365 days old you breed her. She will be pregnant for 283 days. Skip forward and she now has the calf, a bull (thank god). So at 648 days old, B has her first calf. You cut this calf because you saw some egghead posting about banding calves was bad. ;-) 205 days later you wean the calf and sell it for $600 at the stockyard. B, it's moma, is now 853 days old(2.3 years old). It took you 2.3 years, or 853 days for B to grow up and have a calf big enough to sell. During those 853 days you had to feed her (if you want to get specific you can subtract the first 205 days since she was suking off of A). You had to pay a cost to upkeep B, but she was not able to provide you any revenue for 853 days.

Now follow this - It costs you $500 for upkeep on a cow per year. That's $1.37 per day. So B cost you (853-205) 648 x 1.37 or $887.76 before she gave you any revenue.

The total picture is:

By selling B you would have taken in gross revenue of $1800 for 2006 to 2008. Since it costs you $500 per year to keep A going ($1500), you would have realized a $300 profit for 2006 to 2008.

Since you decided to keep B, you only had gross revenue from A for 2006 and 2008, which was $1200. It costed $1500 to keep A going for 2006 to 2008, so you have a net loss of $300.

So by keeping B you lost money on A (-$300), and you also had to keep B for 648 days of upkeep (-$887.76), before you could sell her first calf for $600.

If you would buy a bred heifer instead of keeping B you would basically have ($300 + $887) or $1187.76 to work with. This purchase price can be depreciated on your taxes, since it is a purchased farm expense. You cannot depreciate B because you did not purchase her.

Long winded, but does it make sense now?

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Cypress - your scenario is absolutely correct. So, unless you can purchase a bred, ready to calve heifer for $1187 - that is as good or better than the one you raised, know her dam's records, raised in your environment, etc, you are better off keeping your own replacement - IMO. I'm sure a lot of commercial breeders can get good bred heifers for less than $1187, but are their herds performing as well as your scenario - selling 600# calves?

 

[dyates]

Cypress - your scenario is absolutely correct. So, unless you can purchase a bred, ready to calve heifer for $1187 - that is as good or better than the one you raised, know her dam's records, raised in your environment, etc, you are better off keeping your own replacement - IMO. I'm sure a lot of commercial breeders can get good bred heifers for less than $1187, but are their herds performing as well as your scenario - selling 600# calves?

You would be hard pressed to find that type animal for less than $1187. I'm not saying one choice is better than the other. I just couldn't see where the big money difference was. Now we can see that there is no big money difference.

 

[cypressfarms]

Cypress - your scenario is absolutely correct. So, unless you can purchase a bred, ready to calve heifer for $1187 - that is as good or better than the one you raised, know her dam's records, raised in your environment, etc, you are better off keeping your own replacement - IMO. I'm sure a lot of commercial breeders can get good bred heifers for less than $1187, but are their herds performing as well as your scenario - selling 600# calves?

You would be hard pressed to find that type animal for less than $1187. I'm not saying one choice is better than the other. I just couldn't see where the big money difference was. Now we can see that there is no big money difference.

$1187 is only a made up number. Real world is quite different. The $500 and $600 numbers were easy to illustrate a point. If the price that you can sell calves for is less, than replacements become more attractive. If the costs of upkeep rises (like it is now), then that replacement costs you more. If you are looking for tax breaks, then you may need to buy replacements.

Another reason that I started this post. If a heifers first calf is below average weaning weight, you may only break even the first year (dependant upon price and calf weight). So with that in mind, you may have to plan on 2.3 years of no revenue, and another 1 year of breakeven revenue.