heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

[cypressfarms]

I just completed the spreadsheet for the farm that shows how each cow's calf performed (pounds gained per day, sale price per pound, 205 day weaning weight,etc)

I just started using this format in 2006 where I can compare each cow based on 5 data points derved from the calves performance. Before 2006, my system did not lend itself well to comparison year to year.

One trend that I've noticed with my cows is that a heifer will wean (205 days) a calf a good bit below the herd average. That's to be expected to some extent. The thing that is staggering is that on all of my heifers calving in 2006 (10), their calves in 2007 205 day weaning weight jumped by over 100 lbs. on every one. This seems to be a huge jump. Has anyone out there found similar results? I expect a cows second calf to perform better, but this surprised me. I've thought of different explanations: The heifers didn't go from having all heifers in 2006 to having all bulls in 2007. All cows had the same sex calf but two (which had bull in 2006 and heifers in 2007). Bulls/sire on these cows for 2006 and 2007 were the same.

Is there something I'm missing?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Thats an interesting stat I have never looked at. I would imagine some of it has to do with a two old losing her teeth and is still struggling to grow and raise a calf during this period.

 

[dun]

What CB said but the forage may have been better and were they bred to the same bull both years?

 

[Hippie Rancher]

You need more years of data - it will be interesting to see if it is the maturity of the mamas or just a freak of year to year nutrition from the weather/pasture/feed whatever.

Did any of the already grown cows have heavier weaners this year from last?

 

[cypressfarms]

Same bull both years, an Angus Plus bull. The "cows" from 2006 to 2007 didn't have much of a difference. Some were slightly higher, some were lower.

Some other data from what I've collected:

2006, I averaged $1.16 / lb; in 2007 I averaged $1.00 lb.

2007 average daily gain was .12 lbs HIGHER. (even if you mulitply by 205, you still get 24lbs)

2007's weaning weight (205 days adjusted) was 25 pounds higher than 2006; but this is skewed from the fact that the 10 heifers were in both years (with their first calf being about 100 lbs lighter)

For 2007, had only 5 first time calvers. 4 of those five were over 50 lbs. below the weaning average of the herd. The one odd ball was a heifer's calf that beat the average WW by 75 lbs.

I'm not sure that forage has as much to do with it as the fact that they were heifers...

I will keep better records for all cattle in the future. I only have this data for the group of cattle at my place, not all of the cattle that I have.

I still can't understand it.

 

[Sir Loin]

cypressfarms

The thing that is staggering is that on all of my heifers calving in 2006 (10), their calves in 2007 205 day weaning weight jumped by over 100 lbs. on every one.

A 100 lb difference between a first and second time heifer's calf is not uncommon as there are so many variables to take into consideration.
This is exactly why I have long ago given up on micro managing.
It just can't be done unless you are under laboratory conditions where you have full control over every aspect of the process, including the whether.
If I had to take a shot in the dark as to why it happens, my best guess would be, to start with, it's the heifer's and calf's metabolism and the calf's birth weigh at birth.
SL

 

[KNERSIE]

Although I haven't seen such a consistant big difference in weaning weight between first and second calvers, I have seen individual cases that really surprized me.

I had 2 heifers a few years ago that weaned rather sorry calves and the heifers in question would have been culled if i wasn't short on numbers. The next year as second calvers both of them raised calves in the top 10% of the herd. They also happened to be halfsisters.

Their first calves wasn't parasite infected or had scours or anything and both years calves were out of the same sire. The only explanation I can give is that judged by the size of their udder they had much more milk than the first lactation. Haven't seen this big difference since between first and second calvers.

 

[dun]

Could the heifers first calves weaned at an unusually low weight and the second calf more showing her actual potential. This got me curious, our heifers difference between the first and second calf average around 50 lbs higher for the second and another 70 lbs for the third. I didn;t break it down by heifer and bull calves and most of them are bred to different bulls every year, first calf WW avg around 625 over the past 8 years.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Cypresss if your data proves consistant thats another substantial cost to retaining heifers.

 

[cypressfarms]

Cypresss if your data proves consistant thats another substantial cost to retaining heifers.

Exactly what I was thinking Caustic. If a heifer gives me a calf 50 to 100 lbs less than the herd average, that translates into an extra $50 to $100 bucks lost revenue that you've just had. With the squeeze that's been put on us, that translates into almost no profit. So instead of you realizing profit on retained heifers as 3 years olds, it may be more like 4. I still like cow/calf or 3 in 1 scenario to increase herd size.

It looks like 2007 will show the same trend for me. As mentioned before I only had 5 heifers calve in 2007. Of those 4 were way below the herd average in WW.

I don't like bred heifers as it is, with the risk of calving difficulties, but this is one added cost that I never knew existed.

Does anyone else keep these type of records from year to year? And if so, do your results bear the same?

 

[dun]

Does anyone else keep these type of records from year to year? And if so, do your results bear the same?

That's the beauty of CattleMax, as long as you put the weights in you can create special reports and display/print the data

 

[backhoeboogie]

Good info Cypress.

 

[randiliana]

Does anyone else keep these type of records from year to year? And if so, do your results bear the same?

I have been keeping pretty extensive records for the last 10 years. When I looked at my records, this is what I came up with on 134 head of heifers that calved at least 2 years consecutively. The only heifers that I didn't include were ones that raised an adopted calf in one of the first 2 years. I compared both without BW and with BW included in the weight. These are all adjusted to 205 day weights.

1st calvers, 134 head, 417 and 497(BW)
2nd calvers, 134 head, 452 and 542(BW), difference of 34 and 45 lbs
3rd calvers, 97 head, 465 and 556(BW), difference of 13 and 14 lbs
4th calvers, 76 head, 474 and 568(BW), difference of 9 and 12 lbs

It is interesting to note that of the heifers that calved 2 years in a row, there was only 56% that made it through 4 calvings. Some died, some came up dry, and a lot were culled on performance. This includes both heifers that were bought, and heifers that we raised. On the whole more of the heifers we raised stayed in the herd than heifers that were purchased.

 

[TexasBred]

Those heifers probably gave a lot more milk as 2nd calf heifers than they did as 1st calf heifers and weaned off bigger calves.

 

[ND Angus]

If my first calvers cant raise a calf that weights just as much as the rest of the herd they go to the sale barn. I'll let them off the hook if the calf was sick when it was younger or if the calf is with in 50lbs or so. Last year 3 of my top selling bulls were out of first calf heifers. These heifers did an outstanding job on their bull calves with yearling weights all at the 1375lb mark.

My folks on the other hand wean off all their 1st calf heifers calves at about 2 months of age and dry lot them for the summer letting the heifer have it easy . This sure makes good heifers. The calves seem to do well , you have a little more money into them but the folks seem to think it pays.

 

[cypressfarms]

If my first calvers cant raise a calf that weights just as much as the rest of the herd they go to the sale barn. I'll let them off the hook if the calf was sick when it was younger or if the calf is with in 50lbs or so. Last year 3 of my top selling bulls were out of first calf heifers. These heifers did an outstanding job on their bull calves with yearling weights all at the 1375lb mark.

My folks on the other hand wean off all their 1st calf heifers calves at about 2 months of age and dry lot them for the summer letting the heifer have it easy . This sure makes good heifers. The calves seem to do well , you have a little more money into them but the folks seem to think it pays.

ND, with in 50 lbs or so is a big deal for me. There's an old wives tale (or maybe in this case we should substitute 'ol cattleman's tale) that you shouldn't keep the first born offspring for reproduction due to the fact that the calf may not perform as well as the second.

I have never really put the pencil down and examined the "data" from heifers in particular, compared to the rest of the herd, or even compared to their second calf. Shame on me. As a manager, I get the pleasure :roll: of reviewing reports of all kind at work, and have to develop a keen eye for trends/problems.

If it is true that with heifers you not only have the added problem of calving trouble (possibly), but the first calf will be substantially lower in weight than subsequent calves - then at some point you have to justify if it is worth it to even have heifers. I'm beginning to think "no". And this doesn't even consider Caustic's valid point of keeping your own replacements. With that factored in, you could be losing (by not using the money on 3 or 4 year old cow/calf pairs for example)big time...

Seems like some college or other independant research program would have studied this.

 

[dun]

That OWT or ol famers tale goes back to when people used a crappy little bull that would throw really small calves on their heifers. Properly selected bulls can produce daughters that even as heifers will halve calves that will work. Proper selection of heifers will also eliminate calving problems, and they don;t need to be bred to a bull that produces runt calves.

 

[Boss Cowman]

It's damn hard for a 1st calf heifer to wean a calf that is the some weight as the older cows. In my observations many heifers don't produce the milk needed for the heavier weaning weights. We always have heifers that have calves that average within the herd ww's, but most are lighter.

 

[Sir Loin]

I just can't let this one go by!

Caustic Burno wrote:Cypresss if your data proves consistant thats another substantial cost to retaining heifers.

cypressfarms wrote: Exactly what I was thinking Caustic. If a heifer gives me a calf 50 to 100 lbs less than the herd average, that translates into an extra $50 to $100 bucks lost revenue that you've just had. With the squeeze that's been put on us, that translates into almost no profit.

Come on guys, THINK!

If you need a replacement cow you can either buy one for $1, 000 – $1,500 or keep one on your own heifers and breed her, which only cost you around $500.
It's simple economics people!
SL

 

[Caustic Burno]

I just can't let this one go by!

Caustic Burno wrote:Cypresss if your data proves consistant thats another substantial cost to retaining heifers.

cypressfarms wrote: Exactly what I was thinking Caustic. If a heifer gives me a calf 50 to 100 lbs less than the herd average, that translates into an extra $50 to $100 bucks lost revenue that you've just had. With the squeeze that's been put on us, that translates into almost no profit.

Come on guys, THINK!

If you need a replacement cow you can either buy one for $1, 000 – $1,500 or keep one on your own heifers and breed her, which only cost you around $500.
It's simple economics people!



SL

Your right about it being simple.
Cow has a calf that you decide to retain, now the Dam has not returned anything to the bootm line for two years. The heifer you have decided to retain will not return anything to the bottom line for two years as well.
If it cost as little as a dollar a day to maintain a cow you have a minimum 1460 dollars in the two cows before you might get the first calf out of the heifer.
I don't have room in my operation to feed two cows that are not producing income for two years