heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

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Brute 23":2c8dp3kp said:
Here is another question for you Caustic: (That you probably wont answer)

IF you are in such a bind to have to profit off that calf right now... to pay back on what ever... Where are you going to come up with all the capital needed to buy those heifers all at one time?

5 heifers @$1200 a pop is $6K. For some one who had to have $300 at that exact moment where are you going to come up with the $6K? The bank.. pay interest.. go in debt.. all that other good stuff. :nod: Just think if you need 20 or 30 replacements a year... $25000-$35000 at one time.

Another PRO to keeping your own heifers is:
Even if it costs you the same amount to grow them as buy them, by keeping your own heifers it allows you to spread the money out over two years,,, literally day by day. So instead of having to come up with $6K at one time you can pay off the $6K every day for the next 2 years. No debt... no interest... no being a slave to the bank. ;-)

Its just like any thing else... If your company/ business is large enough to justify producing all the elements in-house the more middle men you cut out the more you will save/ make because you take what ever they were profiting and put it in your pocket.


One thing about you have kept me tickled.
Yes I have bought a lot of cattle out of the paper and the evil salebarn as well.
Lets keep it simple for you
You have a cow herd with fifty commercial cows
These are your typical commercial herd with almost every cross under the sun.
Ages range from 3 to 20 you buy X bull to use where is the genetic advantage.

And on your 6k if you can't skin that many frogs you are already in trouble and operating on a shoe string you just one whopsie from being out of business.
 
I will be back after dark to play with you, got to go put out hay, nasty virsus going on around here.
It will take me till dark to finish mine and do my two neighbors that are down this week.
 
Caustic Burno":1p5nhqsd said:
And on your 6k if you can't skin that many frogs you are already in trouble and operating on a shoe string you just one whopsie from being out of business.

You have to remember that a lot of these folks are just getting their foot in the door and are starting out on a shoestring. I started that way a long, long time ago and so did a lot of others that have been around for years. Young folks, paricularly with little kids can have a hard go of it coming up with that much at one sitting.
 
Caustic Burno":naaneqrt said:
Hippie Rancher":naaneqrt said:
There is no genetic advantage to retaining in a commercial herd.

Why do you think this?

I can buy registered cows cheaper than the cost to grow off a mongrel look at the local adds in the above post.


Good for you, but, just because she is registered doesn't make her a good cow. My experience with registered cows that are priced around commercial price is that they can't produce a decent calf! Heck, just look at some of the registered bulls that are posted on here. Papers don't make an animal good. Beyond that, in my herd there is a genetic advantage to retaining in a commercial herd.

Here is one we raised (and in our herd, WW means a LOT) (she isn't the top one either)
First calf - 529
Second calf - 573

Here is another but, she came up dry (I think she was the only cull of our own heifers in this year.)

First calf - 559 lbs

Here is one we Bought
First calf - 497
Second calf - 521

Or, even better,
First calf - 356
Second Calf - Who knows we dumped her as a pair this spring. Within a couple weeks we could already see he wasn't going to make it.

And, better yet,
First calf - pulled, BW 66 lbs, heifer had no milk, so this calf went on the milk cow.
Second calf - she didn't get a chance, but she sure tasted good......
 
Caustic Burno":2mcmjeoo said:
And on your 6k if you can't skin that many frogs you are already in trouble and operating on a shoe string you just one whopsie from being out of business.

In my eyes it is a bit hypocritical for a man who said he had to have that $300 for the heifer then and couldn't keep it for a replacement to make a statement like that... :lol:

I have to feed also and hot shot some packers to the big city... we will continue later. Hope no one is taking this personal. There are alot more important things in this world than people with too much time on their hands debating keeping or selling heifers on the e-net... :lol: :compute: :lol:
 
Spreading the cost out (by retaining your own) is a good point. To be fair, the folks buying probably do it often enough that they do have that big chunk of cash set aside or otherwise budgeted for that purpose.

I'm sure not saying that buying replacements is wrong - I can certainly appreciate the reasons, its just that I can see the other side too and know what works for me (and some others).

If one way was the only way, everybody's be doing it.
 
dun":7d0y42ru said:
Caustic Burno":7d0y42ru said:
And on your 6k if you can't skin that many frogs you are already in trouble and operating on a shoe string you just one whopsie from being out of business.

You have to remember that a lot of these folks are just getting their foot in the door and are starting out on a shoestring. I started that way a long, long time ago and so did a lot of others that have been around for years. Young folks, paricularly with little kids can have a hard go of it coming up with that much at one sitting.


Dun wasn't meant as an insult just fact 6K today is not that of 20 years ago.
Twenty years ago the average truck in the parking lot cost 8K today I bet they are pushing 40K
This is a business of losses you are just one armadillo hole away from the herd bull with a broken leg, with the bone sticking out and the packing house won't take him.
You are just one tree away from taking out your fence and getting a phone call from the sheriff that a semi just plowed through a half dozen of your cows. Happened to the guy on the highway few months back. Thank goodness he had good insurance didn't cover the loss of the cows but he didn't loose everything.
One bad drought paying 70 dollars plus for hay, or selling your good cows at the salebarn for can and cutter prices to guys like me.
The list can go and on.
 
Now Brute you are just so blinded by your own management you can't see anything else.
I never said it was bad to retain just now the true cost and thats a hard pill for some to swallow.
Unless I missed it you never explained how I was going to get this genetic improvement in the commercial herd.
I am not looking to breed up to purebred Herefords Chars or anything else.
I am looking for the 2 way cross thats worth an additonal 10% weaning weight or the 3 way thats worth up to 23% more in weaning weight. The perfect cow in my book is a braford, brangus type cow for my enviroment,
Yes I buy cattle through adds and I bet a lot of others on here do as well. Have I been burned you bet.
I have bought cattle private treaty from breeders and been burned here.
I buy cattle at the evil salebarn, Have I been burned you bet.
I have raised and retained heifers that I thought were going to be good I have burned here again as well.

This child has been burned enough over the last thirty years to know which one is the least painful.
 
I like that " Guy like me" statement C.B. And think you gave me all the sh** over my governmet check...By the way still get them..Thanks
 
alftn":2bqekttv said:
I like that " Guy like me" statement C.B. And think you gave me all the sh** over my governmet check...By the way still get them..Thanks

No problem I can head up in your neck of the woods and buy some fine cows that are going through the salbarn due to one bad drought. Seen it happen 100's of times good cows raised by good people that are headed to the slaughter house.
Just like we had in 99 and 00 part of the business is planing for them.
The guy like me is bidding over the order buyer at can and cutter prices, it would be even uglier if you didn't have commercial buyers.
 
The tens of thousands of large operators should take a peek in here and see how they are missing the boat. Put all of those replacement cattle shysters out of business.
 
I am up for any thing that works. The problem is you have yet to prove a valid point of why a person should not keep replacements... you make statements with nothing to back them. No numbers... no nothing... You wouldn't answer the flat out questions and most of the things you did say would end up conflicted stuff you said earlier.

I have said more good reasons why you should not keep replacements... :???: nothing you have said has been in any way helpful to debating your side. :?

... and quotes like these don't help any thing...

The Cow returns nothing to the bottom line for two years.

Retaining in a commercial herd has loser written all over it, who in the world would think you can upkeep a heifer for two and half years before she has a payday cheaper than a bred cow .

I have been messing with these cows for over 30 years and I have penciled them 9 ways to Sunday.

There is no genetic advantage to retaining in a commercial herd.

I can buy registered cows cheaper than the cost to grow off a mongrel look at the local adds in the above post.

And on your 6k if you can't skin that many frogs you are already in trouble and operating on a shoe string you just one whopsie from being out of business.

I have not doubt that what you do works for you Caustic... but your debating skills are lacking. I think you know alot of stuff but have problems conveying it to others. This whole time the only reason I have stayed with this is because I wanted to hear what you REALLY had to say. I was hoping for some thing solid to back what you were saying but you couldn't do it... maybe you were just messing around and had no desire to actually prove a point. :tiphat:
 
We retain.
We probably pay more than your average bought commercial heifer.
We think our heifers aren't average as they are all pb without the paper.
We have two pastures that are just the right size to maximize this effort but not large enough to run cattle.

I can't say what our exact cost are as I have only in the last several years tried to take over this operation for my aging Dad. I have continued to do it as he had in the past.

I think B23 has a lot to learn and ain't much worth arguing with CB.
 
ALX.":1rjqdqy9 said:
Brute 23":1rjqdqy9 said:
You wouldn't answer the flat out questions and most of the things you did say would end up conflicted stuff you said earlier. :tiphat:

You been drinking?

Yes I have... that is why I can keep smiling through this. :D Read back through the pages I specifically pointed it out in there, when it happened, what I am talking about. ;-)
 
My thought has been that I would retain my heifers. I'm in the process of building my herd. My goal is to get the greatest value (get the best females at the best cost).

Though there are many scenarios here, I'll give another. The assumption is a herd of 20 cows. The owner/operater is seeking to expand. The scenario will be simple and not include cow/calf death loss or culled cows. The scenario assumes a 1:1 ratio of bull calves to heifer calves.

2008: 20 calves, 10 are would-be replacement heifers. Instead of retaining them, the owner sells them at $700 ea for a total of $7000. The owner saves $40/mo/heifer in feed expenses through the yearling stage (subsequently the start of the next calving season). That's approximately 5 months and $200 per heifer for a total of $2000.

2009: The owner purchases 4 springing heifers/cows at a cost of $1500 ea for a total of $6000. The owner now has 24 calves instead of 20, for a total of 12 would-be replacement heifers instead of 10. The owner also has $3000 more than he would have if he retained his heifers ($1000 in the bank from the sale of his replacement heifers, $2000 not spent in feed expenses). Instead of raising 10 bred replacements at a cost of $500/yr (total $5000), he maintained 4 cows at a cost of $500/yr (total $2000). Therefore, the owner has saved yet another $3000, bringing his total of $ saved to $5000. The owner sells the 12 2009 weaned heifers at $700 for a total of $8400. The owner saves $200 for each 2009 heifer that he didn't retain through yearling age, saving him $2400. The owner has now saved $7400 to date.

2010: Using the $1000 from the sale of the 2008 heifers and the $8400 from the sale of the 2009 heifers, the owner purchases 6 springing heifers/cows at a price of $1500 for a total of $9000. This leaves the owner with $400. At this point, the owner now has 30 head calving just as he would if he had retained ownership of his replacement heifers. The owner has saved $7400 in feed expenses. BUT, the owner has less in total assets. Though he has saved in feed expenses, he has no replacement heifers being developed.

The owner who retained heifers now has 2008 model heifers in production, giving him 30 head that are producing. He also has 10 2009 model heifers that are yearlings and nearing breeding age that are worth $900 ea ($700 at weaning age + $200 in feed expenses) for a total of $9000. The buying owner saved $7400, the retaining owner has $9500 more in assets. If the buying owner is buying BETTER heifers than he is producing, he has paid $2100 for the upgrade in quality. The retaining owner has to ask himself if $1050/yr for his labor is worth it. The buying owner has 4 more head with a significantly reduced chance of dystocia. If the retaining owner is growing his heifers on grass (very possible if he is trying to increase the size of his herd...likely has plenty of room to do this, just needs the fencing or a place to remove the bull), his expenses will feel like less than $500 per yearling as part of his feed expense will be in grass. The retaining owner is very likely to have plenty of excess grass if he is attempting to grow his herd. Thus, he may feel that he has gained more/paid less.

Taking a look from that perspective, let's assume the retaining owner is growing replacements on grass. He pays $25/hd/mo in supplemental feed over a 4 month winter ($100). For the weaned heifers, he stores 2 large round bales at $30 each ($60). He provides the same supplemental feeding for the bred heifers but stores 3 large round bales ($90). So in actual out-of-pocket feed expenses, the retaining owner has $160 per weaned heifer and $190 per bred heifer. In 2008, the retaining owner would have had $1600 in out-of-pocket feed expenses. In 2009, it would have been $1900 for the 10 bred heifers and $1600 for the 10 weaned heifers. The total out-of-pocket expenses for 2008 and 2009 would total $5100. The buying owner will have to feed 4 cows, reducing the out-of-pocket amount saved to $4620 (4 large round bales per cow @ $30 ea). This doesn't really factor the added expense for more vaccine doses and more mineral consumption. What this does tell me, however, is that either way can work. I believe that an owner with high quality cattle can retain ownership more efficiently than purchasing if he has the land to grow the heifers out on grass. If the heifers will spend most of their time in a lot, you'd probably be better off purchasing your replacements.

And regarding earlier arguments, you're only waiting 2 years one time. Every year after that, you'll have a group of heifers calving. And while you're waiting two years, your assets will still have grown. The difference is that your assets will be in the pasture grazing instead of being in a bank account.

Man, if I keep this up, my posts will be longer than Doc's (no offense intended, Doc). Mine probably just aren't as insightful, and my vocabulary is far less complex.

:compute: :cboy:

EC
 
How do figure the Dam gave you more paydays. She calfs in 08 you retain the heifer the next time you sell a calf is 09. The time before that when you sold a calf was 07 thats two years without contributing to the bottom line. As well as waiting 2 years on the heifer, thats 4 years worth of upkeep cost before you get the first return from a calf. Thats pretty expensive IMO, I just don't see the sense of it in a commercial operation.
 
Caustic,

If you give the dam credit for the expenses, should she not get credit for the profits as well? Two years later, is she not responsible for producing the calf at her side as well the her daughter's calf. Had that heifer not been retained, you'd be getting one less calf. And if and when you sell the heifer (for whatever reason), you have just collected the money that you did not receive by retaining the heifer in the first place. I just feel like it all balances out. There's definitely advantages to purchasing replacements. The labor is much less intensive. However, there is also much reward for retaining heifers when a person uses the right kind of bulls. I've certainly enjoyed this topic.

EC
 
East Caney":7l75urob said:
Caustic,

If you give the dam credit for the expenses, should she not get credit for the profits as well? Two years later, is she not responsible for producing the calf at her side as well the her daughter's calf. Had that heifer not been retained, you'd be getting one less calf. And if and when you sell the heifer (for whatever reason), you have just collected the money that you did not receive by retaining the heifer in the first place. I just feel like it all balances out. There's definitely advantages to purchasing replacements. The labor is much less intensive. However, there is also much reward for retaining heifers when a person uses the right kind of bulls. I've certainly enjoyed this topic.

EC


Not argueing your point .
I veiw this from a different angle If I take X dollars and put it in the bank at the end of 365 days, I'm recieving a return on capital(Interest). I am not having to wait 730 days to recieve a return on capital .
I look at what it takes to maintain Ole Belle a day and what she is returning to the bottom line each year.
 
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