heifer's 2nd calf vs. first

[East Caney]

I completely understand that point of view. I put up 202 bales of hay this year, but I'll use less than 50. Looking at income this year, it'll show a huge negative because of that. However, next year my expenses will show to be much less as I won't need any hay. One 365 day period shows a large loss. The next year will show a significant gain. If you average the years until I have to produce more hay, it'll show to be much more balanced. Assuming I'm not buying more cattle, retaining heifers, buying equipment, etc, I'll show a marginal profit. I do understand that it is completely about the way a person looks at it. According to the govt, I will have lost plenty in 2007. In my head, I've made steps forward.

 

[Brute 23]

If I take X dollars and put it in the bank at the end of 365 days, I'm recieving a return on capital(Interest).

...And how much would that be with the high interest amounts the bank gives? :lol:

 

[kerley]

Banks do not pay HIGH INTEREST. They charge high interest. Thats why they have all the money.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

This has been researched & discussed for years - boils down to each individual's operation.
Bottom line: if you can purchase a bred or c/c pair for the amount you can sell 2 heifers, you are about even. If you can purchase a bred or c/c pair for equal to the amount you can sell a heifer, you are definately money ahead - IF - and this is a big IF, your replacement fits into your program.
CB - 06 cow sell calf - 07 cow keep calf - 08 sell calf - cow only missed 1 year of income, if 06 & 08 calves lived & were sold at weaning. you can't say it's two years til she makes you any money, you still only missed ONE paycheck.
I keep most of my replacements, but I sell some & buy back breds or c/c pairs.
It's a no-brainer, if you can sell all your calves & purchase low priced commercial breds or c/c and they FIT INTO YOUR PROGRAM, you are DEFINATELY $$$$ ahead.
We can put as many scenarios as possible (well that ain't possible unless every farmer/rancher posts on here!) and it boils down to each individual operaton.

 

[Caustic Burno]

This has been researched & discussed for years - boils down to each individual's operation.
Bottom line: if you can purchase a bred or c/c pair for the amount you can sell 2 heifers, you are about even. If you can purchase a bred or c/c pair for equal to the amount you can sell a heifer, you are definately money ahead - IF - and this is a big IF, your replacement fits into your program.
CB - 06 cow sell calf - 07 cow keep calf - 08 sell calf - cow only missed 1 year of income, if 06 & 08 calves lived & were sold at weaning. you can't say it's two years til she makes you any money, you still only missed ONE paycheck.
I keep most of my replacements, but I sell some & buy back breds or c/c pairs.
It's a no-brainer, if you can sell all your calves & purchase low priced commercial breds or c/c and they FIT INTO YOUR PROGRAM, you are DEFINATELY $$$$ ahead.
We can put as many scenarios as possible (well that ain't possible unless every farmer/rancher posts on here!) and it boils down to each individual operaton.

Not really Jeanne
It is about operating as a business and the asset (the cow) must pay there way every year.
It is not about carrying debt on one which you are doing when she doesn't contribute to the bottom line.
Todays margin on a cow is 75 bucks a 1000 dollar CD is 51 dollars.
With the current cycle it is going to be hard to keep Ole Belle a float period.
If inflation takes off Ole Belle is in serious trouble period, to pay her own way much less than a heifer.
If you do not run this like a business you will look up one day and wonder what happened to your cows.
This is not about being emotional about my cows or little ranch, its about being logical and making sure the employees keep the business afloat.
What most don't realize we are in an economy with one foot on a bananna peel you are one step away in the cycle from hauling those registered cattle through the salebarn just like the commercial guy.
Seen it before runaway inflation cattle prices tanking in the 70's. I knew a lot more out of the cattle business than in it when it was over. They didn't run it like a business, when prices tanked so did they.

 

[backhoeboogie]

you can't say it's two years til she makes you any money, you still only missed ONE paycheck.

JSV, You are right in a sense, but a cow only gives you one paycheck a year. You are going two years between paychecks and her advances/draws against the check remain. When you get the paycheck two years since the last one, there is not enough to pay for her payroll advances(two years of them). She is going to be about $500 short on that check. It might take her a few years to catch up on her debts. You also can't forget that you put her daughter on your welfare system too. That is where I am at right now trying to build a herd. Retaining heifers is expensive.

I'll take all the free advice anyone offers. I can listen to those who are trying to help me stragtegize how to make a business case or I can let it go in one ear and out the other. Right now I totally understand how my cows are all on my welfare. If I were depending on them for a living while buidling the numbers up, I'd be homeless.

 

[Brute 23]

Not really Jeanne
It is about operating as a business and the asset (the cow) must pay there way every year.
It is not about carrying debt on one which you are doing when she doesn't contribute to the bottom line.

The cow does pay her way. By her producing a calf worthy of keeping for a replacement you save X amount of dollars over buying a replacement. Sounds like that cow did her job to me... in fact she did more than alot of average cows. :nod:

 

[backhoeboogie]

Not really Jeanne
It is about operating as a business and the asset (the cow) must pay there way every year.
It is not about carrying debt on one which you are doing when she doesn't contribute to the bottom line.

The cow does pay her way. By her producing a calf worthy of keeping for a replacement you save X amount of dollars over buying a replacement. Sounds like that cow did her job to me... in fact she did more than alot of average cows. :nod:

Does someone just ride up on a white horse and feed and hay you folk's cattle every day? Maybe those aliens from Stephenville?

There's no doubt in my mind that buying a heavy bred cow, letting her calve, getting her re-bred and then recouping your original investment puts you ahead of the game. The problem is right now ANY cow with ear is still sky high or else their is something wrong with the cow. That is the only reason I am retaining heifers. It is enough to make me want to go out and buy a PB Brahma bull and then buy all those imports from the sale barn to build my own. But it is just too expensive to do so. (unless someone is buyng your feed, fertilizer, and hay for you)

I am keeping heifers and building a herd. It is extremely expensive to do.

 

[backhoeboogie]

the inflation you are referring to is "across the board" then the price you sell your cattle for should be going up proportionately, correct?

Good information on this thread BTW. Thanks all!!

I see the beast as a double edged sword. We are dealing with a deflated dollar. We are also dealing with inflated fuel and the ripple effects attributed thereto (e.g. fertilizer cost).

Recession and inflation cannot occur simultaneously, but by golly it is happening apparently. There are help wanted ads everywhere I look but if you listen to the media, the sky is falling. Hence, I can only assume the sky is falling somewhere else besides here.

We are dealing with inflation on fuel but I am not seeing a lot of deflated prices on anything. The dollar appears to be deflating with foreign currency, but that is what I hear and not what I see at the local stores.

 

[Caustic Burno]

This has been researched & discussed for years - boils down to each individual's operation.
Bottom line: if you can purchase a bred or c/c pair for the amount you can sell 2 heifers, you are about even. If you can purchase a bred or c/c pair for equal to the amount you can sell a heifer, you are definately money ahead - IF - and this is a big IF, your replacement fits into your program.
CB - 06 cow sell calf - 07 cow keep calf - 08 sell calf - cow only missed 1 year of income, if 06 & 08 calves lived & were sold at weaning. you can't say it's two years til she makes you any money, you still only missed ONE paycheck.
I keep most of my replacements, but I sell some & buy back breds or c/c pairs.
It's a no-brainer, if you can sell all your calves & purchase low priced commercial breds or c/c and they FIT INTO YOUR PROGRAM, you are DEFINATELY $$$$ ahead.
We can put as many scenarios as possible (well that ain't possible unless every farmer/rancher posts on here!) and it boils down to each individual operaton.

Not really Jeanne
If inflation takes off Ole Belle is in serious trouble period, to pay her own way much less than a heifer.Seen it before runaway inflation cattle prices tanking in the 70's. I knew a lot more out of the cattle business than in it when it was over. They didn't run it like a business, when prices tanked so did they.

But Caustic, if the inflation you are referring to is "across the board" then the price you sell your cattle for should be going up proportionately, correct?

Good information on this thread BTW. Thanks all!!

Not qiute the way I seen it work the higher fuel went the higher fetilizer went.
The bottom fell out of cattle seen 300 dollar cows lucky to bring a 100.
Don't know if it will happen this go around but just imagine 50 cent a pound calves again with todays cost.
When the dollar gets short the first thing to leave the supper table is beef, and there are plenty of imports still coming in. Market gets weak you can't hold on to calves they have to go somewhere so off to the salebarn prices continue to fall. Sooner or later the fiddler has to be paid Americans are buying hamburgers and fuel on credit cards with 20% plus interest. As the dollar gets weaker they have less spendable income.

 

[Brute 23]

Not really Jeanne
It is about operating as a business and the asset (the cow) must pay there way every year.
It is not about carrying debt on one which you are doing when she doesn't contribute to the bottom line.

The cow does pay her way. By her producing a calf worthy of keeping for a replacement you save X amount of dollars over buying a replacement. Sounds like that cow did her job to me... in fact she did more than alot of average cows. :nod:

Does someone just ride up on a white horse and feed and hay you folk's cattle every day? Maybe those aliens from Stephenville?

There's no doubt in my mind that buying a heavy bred cow, letting her calve, getting her re-bred and then recouping your original investment puts you ahead of the game. The problem is right now ANY cow with ear is still sky high or else their is something wrong with the cow. That is the only reason I am retaining heifers. It is enough to make me want to go out and buy a PB Brahma bull and then buy all those imports from the sale barn to build my own. But it is just too expensive to do so. (unless someone is buyng your feed, fertilizer, and hay for you)

I am keeping heifers and building a herd. It is extremely expensive to do.

You make a smart comment about people feeding our cattle for us but then admit you retain your own heifers.

What am I missing or did I take some thing in a way it was not meant.

We are in the same boat. Not going to pay these crazy prices for Brahma X cattle. That is what we have and have always had. So we supply our selves with replacements (like we have always done) and are making good money buy taking advantage of the market right now.

What is so hard to understand?
We ageraged less than 1 bale per head last winter... very little to no ground feed... very little debt to pay off... and most places run about 1cow/ 3.5ac... its simple math.

 

[Caustic Burno]

 

[Wewild]

On supplying yourself with replacements; are you selling off your herd bull and purchasing a new one every year? Or, going inbred? If a new bull, what does that average?

We don't have to buy a new one every year. Surely that isn't neccesary?

Seems like we buy a new one before they breed back in the big pastures. How many years would that be?

 

[Wewild]

Where do you keep your bulls for the off season .... for those that have a set calving time?

 

[randiliana]

On supplying yourself with replacements; are you selling off your herd bull and purchasing a new one every year? Or, going inbred? If a new bull, what does that average?

We don't have to buy a new one every year. Surely that isn't neccesary?

Seems like we buy a new one before they breed back in the big pastures. How many years would that be?

The question directed at Brute23 was if you keep your heifers then at some point they breed to your bull......the same bull that Sired them? Or a different bull? This would need to be included in the cost of a retained replacement heifer program unless your inbreeding.

Well, in our case we are running 6 bulls at any one time. I keep good enough records, that I can avoid breeding sire to daughter. Well, that is unless some fence hopping goes on. On top of that, we cull and buy back 1-2 bulls a year. Would love to keep some of them longer, but it is very rare that a bull makes it past 6 here. Usually we have temprament/handling problems.

As to where we keep them in the off season, we pull them in late July, they come home, and are in a separate pasture from any cows, until we start bringing the cows home for the fall/winter. Once the cows are all home, usually early October, we have been kicking the bulls out with them. Since we preg check in late Oct to Nov any cows that happen to get bred at this time won't be far enough along to be called bred, or if they are, you can tell that they are really late (and I am not that good). The bulls run with the cows until sometime in late fall to mid winter, when we pull them off again and then they get put in a separate pasture (about 3-4 acres), that is sort of an island in the middle of our yard. At the very least a road separates them from any cows, and so far we have had no major problems. They will stay there until the cows are sent out to pasture, and then we move them to a bigger pasture around home until we put them out for breeding in late May.

 

[Brute 23]

On supplying yourself with replacements; are you selling off your herd bull and purchasing a new one every year? Or, going inbred? If a new bull, what does that average?

We don't have to buy a new one every year. Surely that isn't neccesary?

Seems like we buy a new one before they breed back in the big pastures. How many years would that be?

The question directed at Brute23 was if you keep your heifers then at some point they breed to your bull......the same bull that Sired them? Or a different bull? This would need to be included in the cost of a retained replacement heifer program unless your inbreeding.

We are fortunate enough to have multiple places to switch the heifers up. A little book keeping and its not real hard to keep them away.

We also have "heifer Bulls" that only breed heifers. By the time the heifers make it back into the actual cow/ calf herds the bulls that could have possibly sired them are nearing the end of their stay or are gone.

 

[randiliana]

Got it! So, by having several bulls you can divert them to populations of retained heifers that are not related. In our case, we have only 45 cows and one bull so our cost of retaining heifers would be much higher (if we planned to sell bred) by having to replace the bull or rent a bull or AI.

Thanks!

That is it. But we don't usually breed many cows with our heifer bull. We try to buy one that would work both ways, but 9 times out of 10 a light BW bull is not a really high growth bull. And we can never seem to buy the ones that are.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Does someone just ride up on a white horse and feed and hay you folk's cattle every day? Maybe those aliens from Stephenville?

There's no doubt in my mind that buying a heavy bred cow, letting her calve, getting her re-bred and then recouping your original investment puts you ahead of the game. The problem is right now ANY cow with ear is still sky high or else their is something wrong with the cow. That is the only reason I am retaining heifers. It is enough to make me want to go out and buy a PB Brahma bull and then buy all those imports from the sale barn to build my own. But it is just too expensive to do so. (unless someone is buyng your feed, fertilizer, and hay for you)

I am keeping heifers and building a herd. It is extremely expensive to do.

You make a smart comment about people feeding our cattle for us but then admit you retain your own heifers.

What am I missing or did I take some thing in a way it was not meant.

We are in the same boat. Not going to pay these crazy prices for Brahma X cattle. That is what we have and have always had. So we supply our selves with replacements (like we have always done) and are making good money buy taking advantage of the market right now.

What is so hard to understand?
We ageraged less than 1 bale per head last winter... very little to no ground feed... very little debt to pay off... and most places run about 1cow/ 3.5ac... its simple math.[/quote]

Simple math indeed. Yes, lets do a little of it.

Yes. Lets do some simple math.

Assume you have 200 head of producing cows. Your net profit is excellent because you are an excellent manager and you are only spending $350 per head for the year. Your cows are awesome, young and none need to be culled or replaced. You actually need 500 head because you culled hard during the droughts of '05 and '06.

Of the 200 calves, you had a 95% survival rate so you have 95 bulls to convert to steers to convert to cash. You also have 95 heifers of which 75 are suitable to retain, a high percentage since you are desperate to expand the herd.

You are therefore rendered to sell a total of 115 head for an average price of $600 or $69,000 net.

200 head costing $350 per head is a $70,000 cost. (you just lost $1,000 for a years work) Better start washing dishes or mowing yards or something.

Plus there are some bulls to feed. And now you have another 75 heifers to feed until the next payday a year from now.

AND, no one I know of is only spending $350 a head and selling calves for $250 more than their cost for the cow.

Next year you have 275 head and you are still significantly short of your 500 head goal.

You'd best sell of more heifers if you want to eat :shock: We all know that practically no one in the U.S. is only spending $350 per head.

You are going to take a hit for those steers with ear. You are going to get a huge bonus for heifers or cows with ear just because of supply and demand.

As far as my "smart comment" goes, I am telling you that eared cattle are hard to come by and I have practically no other choice at the moment. Folks are telling you the truth. I am retaining heifers and losing my tale. You can do it simple math or you can do it complex math, in the end, I am losing $ but gaining net worth for the herd. That net worth could drop to nothing if eared cattle prices drop.

 

[Brute 23]

Simple math indeed. Yes, lets do a little of it.

Yes. Lets do some simple math.

Assume you have 200 head of producing cows. Your net profit is excellent because you are an excellent manager and you are only spending $350 per head for the year. Your cows are awesome, young and none need to be culled or replaced. You actually need 500 head because you culled hard during the droughts of '05 and '06.

Of the 200 calves, you had a 95% survival rate so you have 95 bulls to convert to steers to convert to cash. You also have 95 heifers of which 75 are suitable to retain, a high percentage since you are desperate to expand the herd.

I hope some one is checking the math for errors. It looks good when we type it... but then again we are a little bias to our side. :lol:
You are therefore rendered to sell a total of 115 head for an average price of $600 or $69,000 net.

200 head costing $350 per head is a $70,000 cost. (you just lost $1,000 for a years work) Better start washing dishes or mowing yards or something.

I am looking at the books right now for one place. Since 10/24/06 to the current date it has cost me $112.50/ head on the cow/ calf side.

$350/ head... we may be taking into account different expences. Its hard to say exactly what it is. IF you have land payments or some thing that may be driving it up then that would be the difference.

Do your math again... but this time factor in selling the replacements and buying some off the market.

200 cows minus the 95% gives you 190 calves to sell @ $600. That equals $114K.
The 200 cows @ $350 each to raise is $70K. That gives you $44K that you made.
Now because you didn't retain any heifers you go buy 75 off the market.
75 X $1200 (average heifers if you are lucky) means you need $90K. Where are you going to get that money from? YOu only made $44K from selling all the calves.
So instead of going in the hole $1K for that year and picking up 75 producing head you would rather go in debt $46K and not know what kind of stock you bought? :???:

 

[backhoeboogie]

I am looking at the books right now for one place. Since 10/24/06 to the current date it has cost me $112.50/ head on the cow/ calf side.

You must be riding a tri-cycle. No fuel cost at all. Are driving your cows to the sale barn with the old fashion cattle drive method? No tractor or equipment depreciation either but you are still going to need a new handle for that hoe after tilling all those acres by hand. How are you paying for the electricity to power that computer you are setting at? Solar? You are still going to need to depreciate that solar generator.