Heat Detection for AI

[Ebenezer]

How do you explain, maybe we suck at A.I. or it could be that A.I. is a bit more challenging than everyone would have you think.

If the weather is hot, the excess condition of the cows can slow the loss of core heat and cause the embryo to not attach. Fat does not aid fertility in those conditions.

I understand that you sell named cattle and calves of known herd and sire names for a higher price, better recognition, ... and you say that they are superior cattle for you and commercial breeders who buy. If you have been using superior AI sires for decades, how long will it take you to have superior cattle, if ever. Seems to be a process where you never quite become a source?[/quote}

I think our cattle are way above average right now, but that is my opinion, other people may see them and say they aren't worth a sh....t. The quest for superiority is ever changing, in the 60's it was Wye that ruled, now it's SAV, in 40 years who knows??? One thing is for sure I wouldn't be doing myself any favors by picking up a $1k random bull at the stockyards and using him as our sire for 2019. Wouldn't you agree? So with that said, wouldn't it make sense to AI and try to produce the very best I'm capable of and let the chips fall where they may? There are roughly 20,000 head of beef cattle in our county alone according to Gov information. If the biggest Angus producer in our area, along with Boyd Angus, and our operation sold strictly in our little podunk county and everyone used only Angus, there would barely be enough bulls to get the job done, that leaves 119 counties left to serve in Kentucky alone, not to mention other surrounding states. What we produce at Branded is a drop in the bucket versus the overall demand, especially given the size of the beef herd in Kentucky, which is relatively large and growing. Again, why wouldn't I shoot for the best I could when the market is clearly there? I've had people try to convince me that there is no difference at all between a stockyards or homegrown bull and a top AI sire. I disagree, because the results I've had from a phenotypic standpoint and EPD standpoint prove otherwise. I'm sure Select Sires, ABS, and Origen would agree with my views.

We are not discussing the constant comparison of cheap sale barn bulls and prearranged high dollar top selling greats of the Big Boy sale bulls. Arguing extremes is extreme and avoids the discussion.

Wye was a creep based phenomenon and sought growth at the expense of female function. You mentioned Conan one time. That told the story there. Ever wonder why folks drifted away from Wye after Conan was widely used? For every cause there is a symptom. The cows you have posted pictures of are, for the commercial guy, over-conditioned and the last cow had a less than ideal udder and a ski sloped rump. Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program.

Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such. And to be totally honest, to breed year-round and to have multiple AI on cattle are symptoms of something that I would totally avoid in a breeding stock source.

You have a lot of market potential there and can place your bulls. I'm glad for you and appreciate that you follow up with buyers. I wish you the best and decades more in the business.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

It's been the first heat detection year for me personally. Mostly used morning-evening rule. Some stuck on the first try, some needed two times. Had a couple which needed three times. However, have two cows which were AI'd three times and it didn't worked. They both are 7years old, had AI calves as heifers, would get incalf in time when were with bull. They both settled once the bull was brought back with them on the first heat. It seems that either I can't tell when it's the best time to breed them or AI isn't for them. Once had a cow which would always stuck on her third heat no matter if it's a bull or AI. Her daughters usually settle on the first heat.
Have some which are very fertile and would get incalf on the first heat without problems every year. Don't hesitate for them if they go inheat ~40days after calving. Usually always AI if cow is inheat around 2months after calving.

 

[CattleMan1920]

It's been the first heat detection year for me personally. Mostly used morning-evening rule. Some stuck on the first try, some needed two times. Had a couple which needed three times. However, have two cows which were AI'd three times and it didn't worked. They both are 7years old, had AI calves as heifers, would get incalf in time when were with bull. They both settled once the bull was brought back with them on the first heat. It seems that either I can't tell when it's the best time to breed them or AI isn't for them. Once had a cow which would always stuck on her third heat no matter if it's a bull or AI. Her daughters usually settle on the first heat.
Have some which are very fertile and would get incalf on the first heat without problems every year. Don't hesitate for them if they go inheat ~40days after calving. Usually always AI if cow is inheat around 2months after calving.

I realized that I failed to mention that the times where I had to AI multiple times were almost always to older cows and it's not often the case with heifers. I find that AI'ng a cow that is over 8 years old becomes a more challenging thing to accomplish. Some settle just fine, others seem to take a while. Most people I have spoken with don't bother AI'ng older cows, but I have a few over 12 years old that I like how they have performed and how they look for their age, therefore I want their genetics crossed with an AI sire in a new calf. Is it ideal to AI old cows, probably not, but they do tend to be really good mothers and can handle calving with no issues.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded the One thing that has jumped out to me, You said you have Pathfinders in the pedigree, do you have Pathfinders?
Stringing them out will not make Pathfinders!!

We do not have any Pathfinders at this moment. You mentioned something I've thought about, and it's a very good point. I've often considered taking a group of dams and only using natural service on them. I'm pretty confident that I would have a few Pathfinders emerge in time. The criteria for Pathfinder is strict, and AI only makes it ever more difficult.

 

[Bright Raven]

Branded the One thing that has jumped out to me, You said you have Pathfinders in the pedigree, do you have Pathfinders?
Stringing them out will not make Pathfinders!!

We do not have any Pathfinders at this moment. You mentioned something I've thought about, and it's a very good point. I've often considered taking a group of dams and only using natural service on them. I'm pretty confident that I would have a few Pathfinders emerge in time. The criteria for Pathfinder is strict, and AI only makes it ever more difficult.

Who does your AI work? I do my own. I cannot imagine trying to run an AI only operation and not doing it myself.

 

[Bright Raven]

Here are the 2 substantive points in your last post above. I omitted the critique of the picture of one of his cows, the comment on multiple AI attempts and wishing Branded's continued success. Which leaves two good points.

1. "Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program".

2. "Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such".

Those are points I doubt anyone here would disagree with, I sure don't. Are you implying that James has ignored those points in his program? I have read all his posts and I did not reach that conclusion. I did not get the impression that he is sacrificing function for weaning weight. He mentioned good udders, feet, fertility, etc. He seems to me to be wanting to meet the needs of his market - which demands pedigrees that produce pounds. I just want clarity because you are painting what some might think is an ugly picture of his operation.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded the One thing that has jumped out to me, You said you have Pathfinders in the pedigree, do you have Pathfinders?
Stringing them out will not make Pathfinders!!

We do not have any Pathfinders at this moment. You mentioned something I've thought about, and it's a very good point. I've often considered taking a group of dams and only using natural service on them. I'm pretty confident that I would have a few Pathfinders emerge in time. The criteria for Pathfinder is strict, and AI only makes it ever more difficult.

Who does your AI work? I do my own. I cannot imagine trying to run an AI only operation and not doing it myself.

We have an AI tech who is very experienced, He lives close by and will come out with little notice. We have the animal ready, he's in and out in 10 minutes. He had a dairy for many years and has AI'd more cows and heifers than I could ever dream of, definitely over a few thousand head. He could AI blindfolded and he will be the first to tell you that anyone who says it's easy is full of sh..t! He knows very good and well that it can take multiple tries on some animals. He mentioned this the other day "It was easy to AI dairy cows, they came in the barn every day, but AI'ng an entire beef herd is a whole different ballgame"

If AI were so easy, everyone would be doing it, which is not the case in our area, as you well know.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Here are the 2 substantive points in your last post above. I omitted the critique of the picture of one of his cows, the comment on multiple AI attempts and wishing Branded's continued success. Which leaves two good points.

1. "Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program".

2. "Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such".

Those are points I doubt anyone here would disagree with, I sure don't. Are you implying that James has ignored those points in his program? I have read all his posts and I did not reach that conclusion. I did not get the impression that he is sacrificing function for weaning weight. He mentioned good udders, feet, fertility, etc. He seems to me to be wanting to meet the needs of his market - which demands pedigrees that produce pounds. I just want clarity because you are painting what some might think is an ugly picture of his operation.

Thank you for your comment, really appreciate what you said. But, let me say this, we get trashed all the time, when we first put the collars on the cattle and were the first beef herd in the United States to use it throughout a beef operation, as per Dairymaster in Ireland, the locals howled, like coyotes! They laughed, made jokes, even Windstream joked when installing broadband in our barns "are your cattle checking their Facebook and Instagram" Haha! It didn't make me mad, who cares.

We use a lot of technology, our cattle are monitored very closely, I get a heat alert, and the cow is on the back of the farm, no problem, I use a DJI Mavic Pro Zoom drone, go check it out and see what's happening in minutes. I don't kill myself taking care of this herd. Work smart, not hard.

Here is the funny thing about all the ribbing and comments about us not doing things like Grandpappy did....we will have around 50 calves in 2019 sired by some the premier sires in the Angus breed. In 2020 even more than that. We develop nearly every female from within, those we buy are from a highly respected operation with proven success. Very few if any Angus producers can say that and prove it. I don't look down on our local cattlemen, but to the few that crack jokes, I'm looking forward to comparing our progress in 10 years.

As for the 205 weights, they are very important, if you are weaning at 205 in the 400-500 range as many do around here, you are like a salmon swimming upstream. Any serious cattleman will tell you that big 205 weights are preferable. I found, and it's not rocket science, that big healthy cows bred to top sires produce heavy weaning calves. And thank you for pointing out that at the end of the day, maternal traits are very important to us. A big portion of our females are granddaughters of Blackcap May 4136 or Baldridge Isabel Y69, with a lot more on the way. If those cows don't cut the mustard for y'all I don't know what will please you. We just settled a 16 year old cow to SAV Elation, she has a SAV Raindance calf at her side. Is that a non performing cow? C'mon!

 

[Bright Raven]

We do not have any Pathfinders at this moment. You mentioned something I've thought about, and it's a very good point. I've often considered taking a group of dams and only using natural service on them. I'm pretty confident that I would have a few Pathfinders emerge in time. The criteria for Pathfinder is strict, and AI only makes it ever more difficult.

Who does your AI work? I do my own. I cannot imagine trying to run an AI only operation and not doing it myself.

We have an AI tech who is very experienced, He lives close by and will come out with little notice. We have the animal ready, he's in and out in 10 minutes. He had a dairy for many years and has AI'd more cows and heifers than I could ever dream of, definitely over a few thousand head. He could AI blindfolded and he will be the first to tell you that anyone who says it's easy is full of sh..t! He knows very good and well that it can take multiple tries on some animals. He mentioned this the other day "It was easy to AI dairy cows, they came in the barn every day, but AI'ng an entire beef herd is a whole different ballgame"

If AI were so easy, everyone would be doing it, which is not the case in our area, as you well know.

For me, AI is the most engaging part of my operation. Some background: I took embryology under Dr. James Spears. He served on the North American board of Embryo Transfer and has a broad reputation. Getting back into the reproductive sciences was one of my goals. Artificial Insemination satisfies that goal.

In my brief experience, it is certainly a challenge but I have a background that helps. I understand the anatomy and the reproductive physiology. More important, I have developed the techniques that make it possible for me to have a good conception rate. I am very conscientious in the entire process. Regardless, of all of that, there are many factors outside my control. My conception rate is about 75 %. I can live with that.

 

[Ebenezer]

Here are the 2 substantive points in your last post above. I omitted the critique of the picture of one of his cows, the comment on multiple AI attempts and wishing Branded's continued success. Which leaves two good points.

1. "Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program".

2. "Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such".

Those are points I doubt anyone here would disagree with, I sure don't. Are you implying that James has ignored those points in his program? I have read all his posts and I did not reach that conclusion. I did not get the impression that he is sacrificing function for weaning weight. He mentioned good udders, feet, fertility, etc. He seems to me to be wanting to meet the needs of his market - which demands pedigrees that produce pounds. I just want clarity because you are painting what some might think is an ugly picture of his operation.

Didn't know that I needed an editor. No thanks. The pictures tell the story, the 12 month calving tell the story, the slap at Grandpa and the constant extremes of $1000 salebarn bulls tell the story. Not too pretty to me. Keep on blowing smoke and running protection.

 

[Allenw]

Here are the 2 substantive points in your last post above. I omitted the critique of the picture of one of his cows, the comment on multiple AI attempts and wishing Branded's continued success. Which leaves two good points.

1. "Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program".

2. "Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such".

Those are points I doubt anyone here would disagree with, I sure don't. Are you implying that James has ignored those points in his program? I have read all his posts and I did not reach that conclusion. I did not get the impression that he is sacrificing function for weaning weight. He mentioned good udders, feet, fertility, etc. He seems to me to be wanting to meet the needs of his market - which demands pedigrees that produce pounds. I just want clarity because you are painting what some might think is an ugly picture of his operation.

Didn't know that I needed an editor. No thanks. The pictures tell the story, the 12 month calving tell the story, the slap at Grandpa and the constant extremes of $1000 salebarn bulls tell the story. Not too pretty to me. Keep on blowing smoke and running protection.

Different strokes for different folks. This all comes back to buying cattle from someone who raises them as you do for the best results.

 

[Bright Raven]

Here are the 2 substantive points in your last post above. I omitted the critique of the picture of one of his cows, the comment on multiple AI attempts and wishing Branded's continued success. Which leaves two good points.

1. "Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program".

2. "Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such".

Those are points I doubt anyone here would disagree with, I sure don't. Are you implying that James has ignored those points in his program? I have read all his posts and I did not reach that conclusion. I did not get the impression that he is sacrificing function for weaning weight. He mentioned good udders, feet, fertility, etc. He seems to me to be wanting to meet the needs of his market - which demands pedigrees that produce pounds. I just want clarity because you are painting what some might think is an ugly picture of his operation.

Didn't know that I needed an editor. No thanks. The pictures tell the story, the 12 month calving tell the story, the slap at Grandpa and the constant extremes of $1000 salebarn bulls tell the story. Not too pretty to me. Keep on blowing smoke and running protection.

Ebenezer,

My purpose was to focus this discussion on the issues not on *************. It is frustrating when we cannot have a discussion on Cattle Today about concepts and practices rather than the User or making it personal. You have good information to contribute. I was only trying to "sanitize" the subject.

 

[True Grit Farms]

We do not have any Pathfinders at this moment. You mentioned something I've thought about, and it's a very good point. I've often considered taking a group of dams and only using natural service on them. I'm pretty confident that I would have a few Pathfinders emerge in time. The criteria for Pathfinder is strict, and AI only makes it ever more difficult.

Who does your AI work? I do my own. I cannot imagine trying to run an AI only operation and not doing it myself.

We have an AI tech who is very experienced, He lives close by and will come out with little notice. We have the animal ready, he's in and out in 10 minutes. He had a dairy for many years and has AI'd more cows and heifers than I could ever dream of, definitely over a few thousand head. He could AI blindfolded and he will be the first to tell you that anyone who says it's easy is full of sh..t! He knows very good and well that it can take multiple tries on some animals. He mentioned this the other day "It was easy to AI dairy cows, they came in the barn every day, but AI'ng an entire beef herd is a whole different ballgame"

If AI were so easy, everyone would be doing it, which is not the case in our area, as you well know.

That post is so full of bs I can smell it. Granted I'm only good for 20 - 30 head a day then my arm is shot. But that's only because I've had neck and shoulder surgery and refuse to use my right arm. A good dairy AI technician will breed 300 head in a day and break for lunch. There's nothing to AI-ing a cow it's the easiest part of the whole ordeal. The biggest reason I quit using AI in our herd is the time involved, and the next is the expense. I finally have our cows where they're beginning to work for me and not the other way around.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Here are the 2 substantive points in your last post above. I omitted the critique of the picture of one of his cows, the comment on multiple AI attempts and wishing Branded's continued success. Which leaves two good points.

1. "Pounds never trump function in the best of cattle or in a sound breeding program".

2. "Nobody has ever strongly proven that the constant increase of weaning weights can avoid the law of diminishing returns. To know the environmental limits and seek economical ways to up those limits in an average year is the efforts of a thinking commercial producer. That partly ties to the environmental fit of the cow based on mature weights, ability to function on the forages and feed that are economical and such".

Those are points I doubt anyone here would disagree with, I sure don't. Are you implying that James has ignored those points in his program? I have read all his posts and I did not reach that conclusion. I did not get the impression that he is sacrificing function for weaning weight. He mentioned good udders, feet, fertility, etc. He seems to me to be wanting to meet the needs of his market - which demands pedigrees that produce pounds. I just want clarity because you are painting what some might think is an ugly picture of his operation.

Thank you for your comment, really appreciate what you said. But, let me say this, we get trashed all the time, when we first put the collars on the cattle and were the first beef herd in the United States to use it throughout a beef operation, as per Dairymaster in Ireland, the locals howled, like coyotes! They laughed, made jokes, even Windstream joked when installing broadband in our barns "are your cattle checking their Facebook and Instagram" Haha! It didn't make me mad, who cares.

We use a lot of technology, our cattle are monitored very closely, I get a heat alert, and the cow is on the back of the farm, no problem, I use a DJI Mavic Pro Zoom drone, go check it out and see what's happening in minutes. I don't kill myself taking care of this herd. Work smart, not hard.

Here is the funny thing about all the ribbing and comments about us not doing things like Grandpappy did....we will have around 50 calves in 2019 sired by some the premier sires in the Angus breed. In 2020 even more than that. We develop nearly every female from within, those we buy are from a highly respected operation with proven success. Very few if any Angus producers can say that and prove it. I don't look down on our local cattlemen, but to the few that crack jokes, I'm looking forward to comparing our progress in 10 years.

As for the 205 weights, they are very important, if you are weaning at 205 in the 400-500 range as many do around here, you are like a salmon swimming upstream. Any serious cattleman will tell you that big 205 weights are preferable. I found, and it's not rocket science, that big healthy cows bred to top sires produce heavy weaning calves. And thank you for pointing out that at the end of the day, maternal traits are very important to us. A big portion of our females are granddaughters of Blackcap May 4136 or Baldridge Isabel Y69, with a lot more on the way. If those cows don't cut the mustard for y'all I don't know what will please you. We just settled a 16 year old cow to SAV Elation, she has a SAV Raindance calf at her side. Is that a non performing cow? C'mon!

That's so far from what I've learned and know to be true, I just think your just screwing around with us now.

 

[CattleMan1920]

[/quote]

That's so far from what I've learned and know to be true, I just think your just screwing around with us now.[/quote]

A person involved in this thread will be coming over to our place soon, I will show him the 16 year old registered Angus cow, her Angus source parentage proven daughter from SAV Raindance, and if you were nearby I would welcome you out as well to see that what I'm saying is a fact. I'm not messing with you I'm dead serious. I like cows that last, a very long time at that!

 

[Bright Raven]

A person involved in this thread will be coming over to our place soon, I will show him the 16 year old registered Angus cow, her Angus source parentage proven daughter from SAV Raindance, and if you were nearby I would welcome you out as well to see that what I'm saying is a fact. I'm not messing with you I'm dead serious. I like cows that last, a very long time at that!

When I come over James, I will have Mitch McConnell come with me. We will ultra sound the cow, take in utero DNA samples and issue an affidavit. Then I will ask Mitch to pass a Senate resolution attesting to our findings.

Or, you could just not take anything said on this forum serious. That is what I do on a regular basis.

 

[True Grit Farms]

That's so far from what I've learned and know to be true, I just think your just screwing around with us now.[/quote]

A person involved in this thread will be coming over to our place soon, I will show him the 16 year old registered Angus cow, her Angus source parentage proven daughter from SAV Raindance, and if you were nearby I would welcome you out as well to see that what I'm saying is a fact. I'm not messing with you I'm dead serious. I like cows that last, a very long time at that![/quote]

Well the breeders that I know want to sell a good cow when it has value, usually at 10 years or less. Some are selling at 6 -7 years because they have established their herd and are at carrying capacity. Isn't your herd supposed to be improving genetically every year? With sound breeding decisions that's the way it's supposed to work on paper anyway. And the only way to move forward is to get rid of the old and come in with the new.

 

[True Grit Farms]

A person involved in this thread will be coming over to our place soon, I will show him the 16 year old registered Angus cow, her Angus source parentage proven daughter from SAV Raindance, and if you were nearby I would welcome you out as well to see that what I'm saying is a fact. I'm not messing with you I'm dead serious. I like cows that last, a very long time at that!

When I come over James, I will have Mitch McConnell come with me. We will ultra sound the cow, take in utero DNA samples and issue an affidavit. Then I will ask Mitch to pass a Senate resolution attesting to our findings.

Or, you could just not take anything said on this forum serious. That is what I do on a regular basis.

I know breeders that have purchased 10 year old cows from the top breeders in the country and flushed them trying to improve their genetics. But I honestly don't know any breeder that has a 16 year old cow and AI her.
Ron he does have some nice grass, but I think you can still raise a bigger cow on less feed.

 

[Bright Raven]

A person involved in this thread will be coming over to our place soon, I will show him the 16 year old registered Angus cow, her Angus source parentage proven daughter from SAV Raindance, and if you were nearby I would welcome you out as well to see that what I'm saying is a fact. I'm not messing with you I'm dead serious. I like cows that last, a very long time at that!

When I come over James, I will have Mitch McConnell come with me. We will ultra sound the cow, take in utero DNA samples and issue an affidavit. Then I will ask Mitch to pass a Senate resolution attesting to our findings.

Or, you could just not take anything said on this forum serious. That is what I do on a regular basis.

I know breeders that have purchased 10 year old cows from the top breeders in the country and flushed them trying to improve their genetics. But I honestly don't know any breeder that has a 16 year old cow and AI her.
Ron he does have some nice grass, but I think you can still raise a bigger cow on less feed.

Vince, I don't think there is an age limit on AI. I might be wrong. I never really thought about it

 

[True Grit Farms]

When I come over James, I will have Mitch McConnell come with me. We will ultra sound the cow, take in utero DNA samples and issue an affidavit. Then I will ask Mitch to pass a Senate resolution attesting to our findings.

Or, you could just not take anything said on this forum serious. That is what I do on a regular basis.

I know breeders that have purchased 10 year old cows from the top breeders in the country and flushed them trying to improve their genetics. But I honestly don't know any breeder that has a 16 year old cow and AI her.
Ron he does have some nice grass, but I think you can still raise a bigger cow on less feed.

Vince, I don't think there is an age limit on AI. I might be wrong. I never really thought about it

To me having a 16 year old registered cow in your herd means it has beat out 15 years of your breeding decisions. Just seems like a very poor decision in more than a few ways. I always ask myself why?