Timed AI most recent trends?

[mncowboy]

Just looking to see what recent trends are for timed AI?
I used 5 day on heifers and 7 day on cows and it seemed to work well. I've used the same other years with poor results. I've heard neighbors both using 5 and 7 day protocols for heifers. I used to hear 14 day was best for heifers.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Dsth]

I very seldom use TAI on cows and have never used it on heifers. heifers I use the 7 day CIDR and PG on removal but breed on standing heat. cows also get 7 day CIDR but will use the 7 plus 7 protocol on cows I do not see standing heat with the 7 day protocol. I will use the TAI if no standing heat observed after the 7 plus 7 protocol if I do see any sign of a heat (usually a mucus discharge). regardless of which protocol is used, cows will still show heat in the 2-5 day window. TAI is a last resort for me and only at the end of my breeding season. It doesn't make sense to me to breed anything without some sign of heat but that is just my opinion.

 

[elkwc]

Times AI is the only option for many of us if we want to AI. If you have the time and the cattle are close then standing heat is an option. When you're cattle and facilities are 20 miles away and you're AI tech 90 miles it isn't an option

 

[GoWyo]

Times AI is the only option for many of us if we want to AI. If you have the time and the cattle are close then standing heat is an option. When you're cattle and facilities are 20 miles away and you're AI tech 90 miles it isn't an option

I was having my neighbor AI and he is only 3 miles away and it was a hassle for him, so I finally went to AI school. Was concerned I wouldn't do enough to ever be competent at it, when we only had 30 cows, but we picked up some leases and expanded to now running 50-60 through each year for 3 years and my conception rate has been consistently 62-75%. I only breed on observed heats.

 

[elkwc]

I was having my neighbor AI and he is only 3 miles away and it was a hassle for him, so I finally went to AI school. Was concerned I wouldn't do enough to ever be competent at it, when we only had 30 cows, but we picked up some leases and expanded to now running 50-60 through each year for 3 years and my conception rate has been consistently 62-75%. I only breed on observed heats.

I thought about learning how. I'm 71 and even if I learned how our facilities are still 20 miles from the house.

 

[Dsth]

Times AI is the only option for many of us if we want to AI. If you have the time and the cattle are close then standing heat is an option. When you're cattle and facilities are 20 miles away and you're AI tech 90 miles it isn't an option

I am just wondering how you breed cows/heifers that do not settle on first breeding?

 

[elkwc]

I am just wondering how you breed cows/heifers that do not settle on first breeding?

Walking sires

 

[StrojanHerefords]

I am just wondering how you breed cows/heifers that do not settle on first breeding?

On rebreeds, you are stuck breeding off of an observed heat because the that's to the only way to ensure that the cow is open. There is a protocol to put cidr's in two weeks after the first service to line things back up for round two.

 

[mncowboy]

So appears nothing has changed with the 5 day co synch +cidr, the 7 day co synch +cidr and the 7&7 synch?
Plan to use the 5 day on heifers and going to try the 7&7 on the cows which will be a new experience. Last year I used the 7 on heifers and the 5 on cows. It was only 5 and we managed to get 100% but I've used it other years in ranged from 20-65%.

 

[GoWyo]

I am going to save the money on CIDRs for the replacement heifers and bring them in for two weeks to breed on observed heats for a week then lute the ones that are left and breed for the next week then kick them out with the bull.

 

[wbvs58]

I am going to save the money on CIDRs for the replacement heifers and bring them in for two weeks to breed on observed heats for a week then lute the ones that are left and breed for the next week then kick them out with the bull.

I always save the money on cidrs with heifers, I use 2nd hand ones on them, I'm hoping the spent ones wont be as high in progesterone.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I do NOT like to use CIDRs. They will definitely MAKE them cycle - but, you may be working with a stale egg. If I use one to get a cow cycling, I will wait 10 days after her forced heat and PG her. Then breed on that heat.
Does anyone have a common language explanation of what a GNRH shot does to a cycle? Have a new vet and had her palpate a heifer I had not found in heat. She said she wasn't really doing anything and had me give her a GNRH shot. We were busy with a bunch of stuff and I failed to talk to her about it.

 

[mncowboy]

My understanding is it created a stronger follicle /heat cycle but I could be wrong.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

My understanding is it created a stronger follicle /heat cycle but I could be wrong.

And "I" may be wrong. But, my understanding is if the cow has already started developing an egg, the CIDR "holds" the egg until CIDR is removed and remaining shots given to release the egg. So, if cow was hours away (or day or 2) from releasing the egg "naturally", then the "ready" egg has been sitting for 7 more days.
Ken, chime in on this. I would like more info also.

 

[farmerjan]

I am not a vet... but GnRH is supposed to stimulate the pituitary to produce more of the 2 hormones (FSH and LH, I think) that strengthen the egg and cause it to be released from the ovary. It supposedly speeds up the release so that an egg should be released within several hours .... I am not sure of the effects on the actual heat cycle or the strength of the heat... I think that is more something like lutelayse or cysterolin or something like that, will do by disrupting the progesterone and causing the CL to "dissolve" off the ovary so it thinks it is not pregnant and prepares to produce another ripe egg/follicle.
I have next to no experience with using cdir's and such...

If the vet said to give her a shot of GnRH then it would be my understanding that there was/were an egg/eggs on the ovary that had not been released... and it might have been to just get her to release the egg which would get a CL to form and start through the 21 day cycle and then she should dissolve the CL and go into heat again since she is not pregnant. I had heard an old vet one time say to give a shot of GnRH to a cow they didn't see in heat,,, then should come into a regular heat because her ovary had gone from "static to active"... sorta like jump starting the system that had gone into "hibernation" .... but the function of GnRH is to cause the pituitary to produce the hormone to get her to release an already mature egg on the ovary...

Please Ken chime in because I might be saying it wrong.

 

[W.B.]

I am going to save the money on CIDRs for the replacement heifers and bring them in for two weeks to breed on observed heats for a week then lute the ones that are left and breed for the next week then kick them out with the bull.

That's exactly what we are doing. We will actually split ours into two groups and start one group five days ahead of the other. The once that don't settle ai will be slightly more strung out for the clean up bulls. The cows we are doing will be gnrh day 1 and pg day 7 or 8 and breed in heat.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

I do NOT like to use CIDRs. They will definitely MAKE them cycle - but, you may be working with a stale egg. If I use one to get a cow cycling, I will wait 10 days after her forced heat and PG her. Then breed on that heat.
Does anyone have a common language explanation of what a GNRH shot does to a cycle? Have a new vet and had her palpate a heifer I had not found in heat. She said she wasn't really doing anything and had me give her a GNRH shot. We were busy with a bunch of stuff and I failed to talk to her about it.

Gnrh basically pops any follicles that have started to develop and creates a corpus luteum. If the time of the cycle is right an egg would be released for timed breeding. PG, lutalyse causes the CL to regress bringing about heat in a few days. A Cidr provides progesterone in place of a cl so when it is removed the progesterone levels fall and the cow will come into heat.
I went around with a my vet preg checking dairy cows. He would check all cows that had last been in heat more that 42 days prior. On the opens, he would palpate for a CL. If the cow had a cl he would give a shot of lute. On the cows that didn't, he would give a shot of gnrh and give instructions to give the cow a shot of lute in 10 days.

 

[wbvs58]

And "I" may be wrong. But, my understanding is if the cow has already started developing an egg, the CIDR "holds" the egg until CIDR is removed and remaining shots given to release the egg. So, if cow was hours away (or day or 2) from releasing the egg "naturally", then the "ready" egg has been sitting for 7 more days.
Ken, chime in on this. I would like more info also.

I have never heard of eggs being stale Jeanne but anything is possible I guess. In the early stages of oestrus there will be more than one follicle developing but in the normal situation of a single birth only one continues to develop and the others regress. I don't think there would be much risk of stale eggs as the chosen one does not really develop until they get into oestrus and the others are not wasted it may be their turn next time.
I know when I get mine in to put the cidrs in I keep an eagle eye out for any that may just be starting to show early signs of oestrus. I don't know how quickly the cidr will elevate progesterone levels to suppress one on the verge of oestrus but I often hold one over to see if it comes on heat to inseminate or put the cidr in with the next batch. I also am watching my cows closely for a few weeks leading up to putting the cidrs in and any that I see showing signs of oestrus I will note so I know when they are due again.
Anything to do with synchronising is not an exact science on an individual, it is used for convenience and numbers that are relevant is the %age of success so yes there will always be some that miss. What I do know is that the good cows rarely miss.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

I am not a vet... but GnRH is supposed to stimulate the pituitary to produce more of the 2 hormones (FSH and LH, I think) that strengthen the egg and cause it to be released from the ovary. It supposedly speeds up the release so that an egg should be released within several hours .... I am not sure of the effects on the actual heat cycle or the strength of the heat... I think that is more something like lutelayse or cysterolin or something like that, will do by disrupting the progesterone and causing the CL to "dissolve" off the ovary so it thinks it is not pregnant and prepares to produce another ripe egg/follicle.
I have next to no experience with using cdir's and such...

If the vet said to give her a shot of GnRH then it would be my understanding that there was/were an egg/eggs on the ovary that had not been released... and it might have been to just get her to release the egg which would get a CL to form and start through the 21 day cycle and then she should dissolve the CL and go into heat again since she is not pregnant. I had heard an old vet one time say to give a shot of GnRH to a cow they didn't see in heat,,, then should come into a regular heat because her ovary had gone from "static to active"... sorta like jump starting the system that had gone into "hibernation" .... but the function of GnRH is to cause the pituitary to produce the hormone to get her to release an already mature egg on the ovary...

Please Ken chime in because I might be saying it wrong.

I would think that the aim of the gnrh would be to try to stimulate the ovaries into a bit of action in this situation. The FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) as the name implies stimulates the follicles to develop so it would be hoping that it just gets things going. Obviously the condition of the cow, age and feed are all important to them cycling and drugs will rarely overpower the environmental factors.
I do not use any gnrh myself. It became the go to hormone when they stopped you from using Oestrodiol. Here we can still use it on beef cattle except if we want them to be eligible for the EU market. We can't use it on dairy cattle. When I put the cidr in mine get a shot of Oestrodiol and any that are not in season at 48hrs after the PGwill get another small dose and they will be reliably on heat the following morning.
As far as I know or can remember cidrs came out to get anoestrus dairy cows to come in season and I think the other uses for synchronisation developed from there.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Jan and Ken -- thanks. That is great info.
I was questioning GNRH because I generally give it to a cow at time of breeding if she is actively standing. I "thought" it made her release her egg. Someone told me it didn't, so I was dbl cking my knowledge.
Thanks all.