Heat Detection for AI

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Most AI and natural breeding seasons in managed herds are less than a year-long effort. There is a reduced labor issue in that decision, a more uniform calf crop, groups of contemporaries are easier to manage and bring to their levels of production, infertile cattle can easily be identified and culled and if we choose a "breeding season" we can pick the times of the year which are seasonally best for us or raise our rate of success based on temperatures, feed and environment. To me, that is a big problem in what is being presented as high tech but missing out on easier management in basic steps. Just an observation after reading.

I believe (let me know if I'm wrong) he was referring to a breeding SEASON - whether it be with AI or a bull.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Most AI and natural breeding seasons in managed herds are less than a year-long effort. There is a reduced labor issue in that decision, a more uniform calf crop, groups of contemporaries are easier to manage and bring to their levels of production, infertile cattle can easily be identified and culled and if we choose a "breeding season" we can pick the times of the year which are seasonally best for us or raise our rate of success based on temperatures, feed and environment. To me, that is a big problem in what is being presented as high tech but missing out on easier management in basic steps. Just an observation after reading.

I believe (let me know if I'm wrong) he was referring to a breeding SEASON - whether it be with AI or a bull.

We try to get them all bred between first week of December to last week of February. The main reason is that the fall is usually an ideal time here in Kentucky for the calves to be born. If for some reason we have to stretch it a bit further we will, but only by a couple weeks at most.

When I said we have some animals come year round, I didn't mean we have them randomly whenever, we might, on an average year have less than 5 that come outside of the window we set, the majority are in a given timeframe.

 

[LCBulls]

I think that it's really cool that you use this technology. I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from it.I appreciate you sharing this information.Like you said, many people would not do so.
Based on the chart you provided, Do the cows show standing heat when the the Green graph line starts to fall?
Also based on this information, when do you believe the best time to AI is after first standing heat?
We usually shoot for around 12 hours when possible

 

[NEFarmwife]

I think that it's really cool that you use this technology. I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from it.I appreciate you sharing this information.Like you said, many people would not do so.
Based on the chart you provided, Do the cows show standing heat when the the Green graph line starts to fall?
Also based on this information, when do you believe the best time to AI is after first standing heat?
We usually shoot for around 12 hours when possible

Going even further, do you find based on that graph, more heifers or bulls when they calve? There has been discussion in the past about heats and sexes. I'd think a chart like this would be very telling on whether it to be true or not.

 

[Putangitangi]

I think that it's really cool that you use this technology. I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from it.I appreciate you sharing this information.Like you said, many people would not do so.
Based on the chart you provided, Do the cows show standing heat when the the Green graph line starts to fall?
Also based on this information, when do you believe the best time to AI is after first standing heat?
We usually shoot for around 12 hours when possible

Going even further, do you find based on that graph, more heifers or bulls when they calve? There has been discussion in the past about heats and sexes. I'd think a chart like this would be very telling on whether it to be true or not.

Further, I'm still interested in answers to the questions I posed earlier: When on that chart did she start standing heat? When did she stop. I don't understand "getting warmed up for the heat" in relation for the heat signs I watch for.

How long have you been using this system and how long have you been breeding? (Not sure if that gets into "how rude to ask" territory like asking how much land someone has! Here we ask such things.)

 

[CattleMan1920]

I think that it's really cool that you use this technology. I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from it.I appreciate you sharing this information.Like you said, many people would not do so.
Based on the chart you provided, Do the cows show standing heat when the the Green graph line starts to fall?
Also based on this information, when do you believe the best time to AI is after first standing heat?
We usually shoot for around 12 hours when possible

Going even further, do you find based on that graph, more heifers or bulls when they calve? There has been discussion in the past about heats and sexes. I'd think a chart like this would be very telling on whether it to be true or not.

Good question, but I really can't tell, it seems that we are about even between the two on conventional semen. I really couldn't give you accurate information on this because we use a lot of sexed semen. More than 50% of what we are using right now is SAV Raindance sexed semen. We are taking our heifers and making more heifers, and will take those heifers and make even more heifers with another sexed semen sire.

My A.I. tech has brought up this topic however and he thinks that there is something to it, and he said he has heard a lot of old timers say that the time which the service occurs can determine the sex.

I usually see discharge and a bit of sniffing around before the alert goes off, maybe an hour most, the monitor on the collar picks up VERY quickly on any above average movement based on an algorithm and is usually dead on right. This is a big advantage with the use of sexed semen. Through a lot of trial and error, we don't consider the heat until the monitor alerts us, and the vertical bars go green. The horizontal bar is just kind of an early indicator that something may be coming, but it can be misleading if the weather is wild, which it has been. Consider the drop in rumination on the monitor as a dog raising his head up when someone is outside, but not barking yet.

I think the 12-hour rule is the best, and I still like the rule that if they come in at night, breed in the morning and vice versa, but I will have to say, some of the heats have been over before 12 hours and if I had waited, I would have missed them. Some heats have lasted 26 hours as well. I've noticed that heifers have milder heats than a fully mature cow. A big cow can make the monitor go as far as it can on the chart whereby a heifer might make it go halfway. I know all of this sounds nuts, but it's true.

Dairymaster, in my opinion, is collecting, aggregating, and selling all of this data, just like Facebook, to companies such as Zoetis, and feed producers. There is a lot to be gleaned from this. I don't really mind, because we get what we want from the system and if they use the data to profit, who cares?

What I like about this system the most is that it's scalable. I could have 250 cows on it, 500 cows, 1000 cows, all coming into my iPhone. Each day in less than 30 minutes I can check every single cow, and know if there are any anomalies. This has nothing to do with being fancy as some people say, it has more to do about valuing my time and the health of the herd. I realize that I could synch them all, but after talking in depth with my ABS rep, he said this was a better solution for what we are trying to accomplish.

 

[LCBulls]

So if I understand correctly, the vertical red line is when it is determined to be in first standing heat and you will get an alert?
You will then breed them accordingly based on AM/ PM rule or whatever one might be best if it occurs in the middle of the day?

Not sure who mentioned it on this forum in the past ,but we used their advice. If we have one come in during the middle of the day we sometimes AI late that evening and again first thing the next morning. I think it really helped our conception rates.

Also heard that using sexed semen that it was recommended to AI later than 12 hours after first standing heat. We haven't used much sexed semen.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Yes, when the red line appears, it is the official heat according to the monitor, at which time an alert comes across my iPhone.

If the heat is in the a.m. we breed in p.m. and vice versa. If the heat is around noon, we will breed as late in the day as possible.

The sexed semen is not that difficult to use, ST Genetics has a superb product, and we have settled quite a few with sexed semen, no males ever born from it. However, it's best to use it near the end of the heat based on my experiences with it so far.

The chart looks like a bell curve, and if possible, I've had the best results when they are AI'd near the peak or slightly thereafter, on the top part of the downslope. That, however, is not always possible unless you don't mind AI'ng in the middle of the night.

When using sexed semen, it pays to get the timing right, because it's not exactly inexpensive. The system helps us to dial in a more accurate start of the heat and removes a lot of guesswork. Theoretically, you can take 20-30 heifers and make 20-30 heifers with sexed semen, it's a replacement heifer bonanza of sorts. We have actually done that and I can say honestly that it works, but you need to have your timing right. When that female calf is born, it's exciting. ST Genetics has a protocol in their semen sales book to follow and we try to stick to it closely, and it has proven successful.

Our goal in time, crazy as it may seem is to take 50 heifers and make 50 heifers. Rinse and repeat, till we are doing it with 100 or more. That is definitely not something that a natural service bull can ever pull off.

One more thing. ST Genetics also has male sexed semen so if you want to produce nothing but bulls you can do that as well. FYI

 

[LCBulls]

ST Genetics recommends 16-20 hours after first standing heat for sexed semen. Do you guys wait that long?

 

[Bright Raven]

ST Genetics recommends 16-20 hours after first standing heat for sexed semen. Do you guys wait that long?

Why the longer time frame from onset of standing heat?

 

[LCBulls]

ST Genetics recommends 16-20 hours after first standing heat for sexed semen. Do you guys wait that long?

Why the longer time frame from onset of standing heat?

I have no idea. But that's what their 2018 Fall Beef Directory says.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I think that it's really cool that you use this technology. I'm sure that we all could learn a lot from it.I appreciate you sharing this information.Like you said, many people would not do so.
Based on the chart you provided, Do the cows show standing heat when the the Green graph line starts to fall?
Also based on this information, when do you believe the best time to AI is after first standing heat?
We usually shoot for around 12 hours when possible

Going even further, do you find based on that graph, more heifers or bulls when they calve? There has been discussion in the past about heats and sexes. I'd think a chart like this would be very telling on whether it to be true or not.

Good question, but I really can't tell, it seems that we are about even between the two on conventional semen. I really couldn't give you accurate information on this because we use a lot of sexed semen. More than 50% of what we are using right now is SAV Raindance sexed semen. We are taking our heifers and making more heifers, and will take those heifers and make even more heifers with another sexed semen sire.

My A.I. tech has brought up this topic however and he thinks that there is something to it, and he said he has heard a lot of old timers say that the time which the service occurs can determine the sex.

I usually see discharge and a bit of sniffing around before the alert goes off, maybe an hour most, the monitor on the collar picks up VERY quickly on any above average movement based on an algorithm and is usually dead on right. This is a big advantage with the use of sexed semen. Through a lot of trial and error, we don't consider the heat until the monitor alerts us, and the vertical bars go green. The horizontal bar is just kind of an early indicator that something may be coming, but it can be misleading if the weather is wild, which it has been. Consider the drop in rumination on the monitor as a dog raising his head up when someone is outside, but not barking yet.

I think the 12-hour rule is the best, and I still like the rule that if they come in at night, breed in the morning and vice versa, but I will have to say, some of the heats have been over before 12 hours and if I had waited, I would have missed them. Some heats have lasted 26 hours as well. I've noticed that heifers have milder heats than a fully mature cow. A big cow can make the monitor go as far as it can on the chart whereby a heifer might make it go halfway. I know all of this sounds nuts, but it's true.

Dairymaster, in my opinion, is collecting, aggregating, and selling all of this data, just like Facebook, to companies such as Zoetis, and feed producers. There is a lot to be gleaned from this. I don't really mind, because we get what we want from the system and if they use the data to profit, who cares?

What I like about this system the most is that it's scalable. I could have 250 cows on it, 500 cows, 1000 cows, all coming into my iPhone. Each day in less than 30 minutes I can check every single cow, and know if there are any anomalies. This has nothing to do with being fancy as some people say, it has more to do about valuing my time and the health of the herd. I realize that I could synch them all, but after talking in depth with my ABS rep, he said this was a better solution for what we are trying to accomplish.

When we flushed with Sexed semen, we were to flush at the 18th hour after standing heat for best conception per our embryologist. We went ahead and did 12th and 18th hour but he said the 18th was critical. We got 4 good embryos from that.

You're saying at the 12th hour, you A.I. sexed semen? Have you seen re-breeds from that or are you successful?

 

[Bright Raven]

ST Genetics recommends 16-20 hours after first standing heat for sexed semen. Do you guys wait that long?

Why the longer time frame from onset of standing heat?

I have no idea. But that's what their 2018 Fall Beef Directory says.

Thanks. That is what it says.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

From all my info I have gathered, EARLY in the cycle (still standing) you will get more heifers, but have LOWER conception. Higher conception is later.
The concept is: The males are skinny and fast swimmers, females fat & slower (no comments from peanut gallery).
The cow releases her egg and basically the first swimmer gets to fertilize it.
So, if you do not turn the swimmers loose until after she ovulates, the bulk of the males will get there first, but if you release them early, the bulk of the males get there, no egg, then the slow poke females get there and fertilize.
I know, I know --- X & Y chromosome blah blah. I think you get the picture.
So, I generally breed as early as possible the first 2 weeks of breeding, then go with the later timing. But, as I mentioned, I am depending on a tech, so I can't be real picky on my timing.
When hubby was around doing all our AI, that was our program, and the majority of our girls came that first 2 weeks.
When sexed semen was just in the research stage, a private stud near us was doing a lot of the actual work. We visited with a few of the embryologists/researchers and they totally agreed with that concept.

 

[Bright Raven]

short return after the first heat post-calving is relatively normal, I find.
Having numbers of cows willing to mount helps - short breeding season it shouldn't be of too much of an issue but with a longer breeding season (or open cows cycling outside of breeding season) watch to see which cows jump them - good chance those cows are open or not too far along. Most seem to lose interest entirely in mounting other cows later in pregnancy.

Regolith, you remember this comment? I want to give you the feedback.

The subject animal is a first calf heifer. She was my last one to calve. She calved on November 9, 2018. Which was on day 285 of gestation. I wanted to get her bred back as soon as possible to keep her in the calving window. Her first postpartum heat was 38 days on December 17, 2018. I bred her at 4:00 PM on that day. She returned to heat 8 days later, on December 25, 2018. I bred her at 8:00 AM, the next morning. She is 23 days this morning after the second 8 day short heat and has shown no estrus behavior. She is very calm and settled. As you stated, the first heat was a false heat and the short cycle is the heat that produced an egg. I am very pleased to move her back into the calving window.

 

[Putangitangi]

Unless she comes back at six weeks, Ron. ;-)

 

[Bright Raven]

Unless she comes back at six weeks, Ron. ;-)

Hush!

 

[Putangitangi]

I'm not going to directly quote myself but something about it being easy, which it is, except when it's not: heifers this year are stumping me. Only got one out of the three so far this season. It's been really hot when I did the two (or didn't do them, as it turned out) and while the heifers have been quiet enough, I've been far too hot. New yards will have a roof for shade (and rain shelter). Little soft cervixes are the ones I find really tough. Just couldn't find the os. Oh well. Next year. I don't really want them calving too late in the mob come spring.

 

[Bright Raven]

I'm not going to directly quote myself but something about it being easy, which it is, except when it's not: heifers this year are stumping me. Only got one out of the three so far this season. It's been really hot when I did the two (or didn't do them, as it turned out) and while the heifers have been quiet enough, I've been far too hot. New yards will have a roof for shade (and rain shelter). Little soft cervixes are the ones I find really tough. Just couldn't find the os. Oh well. Next year. I don't really want them calving too late in the mob come spring.

That was me last year, oddly, this year the heifers were a piece of cake.

 

[Putangitangi]

I'm not going to directly quote myself but something about it being easy, which it is, except when it's not: heifers this year are stumping me. Only got one out of the three so far this season. It's been really hot when I did the two (or didn't do them, as it turned out) and while the heifers have been quiet enough, I've been far too hot. New yards will have a roof for shade (and rain shelter). Little soft cervixes are the ones I find really tough. Just couldn't find the os. Oh well. Next year. I don't really want them calving too late in the mob come spring.

I've just finished mating a few days ago: I was able to inseminate/have mated all the animals in my list (34 cows & heifers) within 24 days. I put a couple of home-bred yearling bulls out after insem and only one cow came back on heat. Even those heifers I hadn't been able to inseminate properly, appear to be in calf. I'm delighted! 46-day mating, should lead to a 35-day calving, which is very nice. Barring some stupid disaster, of course.

I went back through my insem records after posting here about the heifers I couldn't do and found that over time 30% of those I described similarly got pregnant from the sub-standard insemination. So sometimes I get enough of the right stuff in close enough to the right place.

I lowered herd numbers a couple of seasons ago after a horrible year of calving problems after a tough winter and currently farming feels a lot more pleasant than it did closer to the edge.

My calculations for this year are 97% on heat in the first three weeks and 93% conception rate on once-only natural-heat insem over 30 cows/heifers.