Heat Detection for AI

[wbvs58]

Artificial Insemination is a routine practice. What makes it challenging, is the occasional one that does not go easy. I have all of my cows/heifers serviced this breeding season. I am now waiting for any that did not stick. Only one was a challenge and that is because she has a deep cervix. I had the whole rod in her when the rod got to the uterine end of the cervix. She had a lot of manure to maneuver through and she got some air in her vagina.

Rarely do I get away without getting some s*** on me. Sometimes are worse than others.

Vacuum cleaner Ron???? For the air.

Ken

[*]

Have you tried it yet?

No not yet but it is there for when I need it next.

Ken

 

[Putangitangi]

...When I say it's hard, I don't mean figuring out where the straw goes. Our A.I. tech usually has zero difficulties at that procedure. I'm referring to the weather and timing. Sometimes we are bringing them in during horrible weather, mud is just insane, they are in another field where it's higher ground, but far away from the chute, etc, and yes that can be difficult. Just got the Biopryn results back today for 7 heifers we bred, 6 were settled, so I guess something went right.

No, see that's not what you said or implied in the first place. Your tech told you it was hard and presumably he wasn't having to deal with all that tough stuff. Besides, how do you know whether or not your tech has difficulties? You can't see what he's doing. What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Why would you have such a difficult set-up if you want to do AI? Or put another way, why wouldn't you set things up differently so it's not as hard as you say? Life's short; why make it so hard?

 

[Bright Raven]

...When I say it's hard, I don't mean figuring out where the straw goes. Our A.I. tech usually has zero difficulties at that procedure. I'm referring to the weather and timing. Sometimes we are bringing them in during horrible weather, mud is just insane, they are in another field where it's higher ground, but far away from the chute, etc, and yes that can be difficult. Just got the Biopryn results back today for 7 heifers we bred, 6 were settled, so I guess something went right.

What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Lol. I am glad no one is standing over my shoulder.

One thing you should never do in my opinion is rush. When you do hit a challenging cow or heifer, it goes better if you relax and work through it.

 

[CattleMan1920]

...When I say it's hard, I don't mean figuring out where the straw goes. Our A.I. tech usually has zero difficulties at that procedure. I'm referring to the weather and timing. Sometimes we are bringing them in during horrible weather, mud is just insane, they are in another field where it's higher ground, but far away from the chute, etc, and yes that can be difficult. Just got the Biopryn results back today for 7 heifers we bred, 6 were settled, so I guess something went right.

What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Lol. I am glad no one is standing over my shoulder.

One thing you should never do in my opinion is rush. When you do hit a challenging cow or heifer, it goes better if you relax and work through it.

His "hit rate" is only as good as our judgment of when the cow/heifer is in heat. If we get it right, usually he does as well. As far as his face, he is very chill, expressionless, somewhat reflective as his arm is up the ass.hole. I assume he is pondering life and what it all means, who knows??? He does take his time, and NEVER rushes anything. One thing however that I like that he does, he ALWAYS says "It's OK baby, you are doing fine pretty girl" all in a soft soothing voice. I think that is a big plus for getting them settled. Who wishes to feel disrespected when a man's arm is up your a..s?

 

[Bright Raven]

What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Lol. I am glad no one is standing over my shoulder.

One thing you should never do in my opinion is rush. When you do hit a challenging cow or heifer, it goes better if you relax and work through it.

His "hit rate" is only as good as our judgment of when the cow/heifer is in heat. If we get it right, usually he does as well. As far as his face, he is very chill, expressionless, somewhat reflective as his arm is up the be nice.hole. I assume he is pondering life and what it all means, who knows??? He does take his time, and NEVER rushes anything. One thing however that I like that he does, he ALWAYS says "It's OK baby, you are doing fine pretty girl" all in a soft soothing voice. I think that is a big plus for getting them settled. Who wishes to feel disrespected when a man's arm is up your a..s?

Well stated.

 

[CattleMan1920]

...When I say it's hard, I don't mean figuring out where the straw goes. Our A.I. tech usually has zero difficulties at that procedure. I'm referring to the weather and timing. Sometimes we are bringing them in during horrible weather, mud is just insane, they are in another field where it's higher ground, but far away from the chute, etc, and yes that can be difficult. Just got the Biopryn results back today for 7 heifers we bred, 6 were settled, so I guess something went right.

No, see that's not what you said or implied in the first place. Your tech told you it was hard and presumably he wasn't having to deal with all that tough stuff. Besides, how do you know whether or not your tech has difficulties? You can't see what he's doing. What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Why would you have such a difficult set-up if you want to do AI? Or put another way, why wouldn't you set things up differently so it's not as hard as you say? Life's short; why make it so hard?

Why wouldn't I set things up differently?, maybe cash has something to do with it. In my ideal setup I would have a 10000 square foot Morton building on the highest point on our farm, a nice paved drive up to it, with welded continuous rail fencing, automatic gates, a Silencer chute, nice office to chill in, don't forget some fancy leather sofas. But instead, I have a few shi..tty barns, less than ideal fencing, a Priefert chute, and horrible weather (which I cannot change) that won't let up. Maybe someday that will change, and we will have a setup that looks like a Fayette county horse farm. Only time will tell. I figure $850k to one million will get the setup that is ideal for us, and very comfortable at that...It would also be nice to pick up about another 3000 acres, contiguous, yes, that would be nice, so that the herd will never be muddy, in fact maybe a 20000 square foot Morton building could be erected so that the herd could be brought inside before every heavy rain, have them on a concrete floor with the thick rubber horse flooring, and tons of fresh straw so they can be comfy while the storm passes, or if it gets too cold outside. I also like the idea of them being in air-conditioned warehouse size buildings in the summer so they don't have to deal with the heat, flies, etc. Ah, the possibilities are endless! You really have me thinking ahead.

 

[Bright Raven]

No, see that's not what you said or implied in the first place. Your tech told you it was hard and presumably he wasn't having to deal with all that tough stuff. Besides, how do you know whether or not your tech has difficulties? You can't see what he's doing. What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Why would you have such a difficult set-up if you want to do AI? Or put another way, why wouldn't you set things up differently so it's not as hard as you say? Life's short; why make it so hard?

Why wouldn't I set things up differently?, maybe cash has something to do with it. In my ideal setup I would have a 10000 square foot Morton building on the highest point on our farm, a nice paved drive up to it, with welded continuous rail fencing, automatic gates, a Silencer chute, nice office to chill in, don't forget some fancy leather sofas. But instead, I have a few shi..tty barns, less than ideal fencing, a Priefert chute, and horrible weather (which I cannot change) that won't let up. Maybe someday that will change, and we will have a setup that looks like a Fayette county horse farm. Only time will tell. I figure $850k to one million will get the setup that is ideal for us, and very comfortable at that...It would also be nice to pick up about another 3000 acres, contiguous, yes, that would be nice, so that the herd will never be muddy, in fact maybe a 20000 square foot Morton building could be erected so that the herd could be brought inside before every heavy rain, have them on a concrete floor with the thick rubber horse flooring, and tons of fresh straw so they can be comfy while the storm passes, or if it gets too cold outside. I also like the idea of them being in air-conditioned warehouse size buildings in the summer so they don't have to deal with the heat, flies, etc. Ah, the possibilities are endless! You really have me thinking ahead.

James,

Putangitangi is only having fun but she has a point. I would like to have a Thorough Bred horse farm setup too. Instead, I have a system. There is no way that I could get the job done by going out into distant pastures and getting cows up. I got my cows right near the facility. They stay in the hay feed area. When I observe a heat, it takes 5 minutes to get the cow separated and moved into the facility where the chute is. I prepare for Insemination in the house. I go out to the chute, get the job done and turn her loose. I breed on natural heats and I do it by myself. You have to have a convenient system.

 

[wbvs58]

...When I say it's hard, I don't mean figuring out where the straw goes. Our A.I. tech usually has zero difficulties at that procedure. I'm referring to the weather and timing. Sometimes we are bringing them in during horrible weather, mud is just insane, they are in another field where it's higher ground, but far away from the chute, etc, and yes that can be difficult. Just got the Biopryn results back today for 7 heifers we bred, 6 were settled, so I guess something went right.

What's his hit-rate and how long does he take and what does his face look like while he's doing the job? ;-)

Lol. I am glad no one is standing over my shoulder.

One thing you should never do in my opinion is rush. When you do hit a challenging cow or heifer, it goes better if you relax and work through it.

Ron, they are the exact words I use when I get a tough one, "just work through it Ken"" think the basics and it usually works out.

Ken

 

[wbvs58]

Would people buy bulls from you with that hypothetical setup? I can imagine them complaining that your cattle have never been exposed to real world conditions.

Ken

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Branded - I think what most are having a hard time "grasping" is your comments about breeding at possibly the wrong timing. First, there is a HUGE window of time to get a cow bred (in comparison to thinking it has to be exact). With your state of the art heat detection system, that evidently tells you when she starts messing around, when she actually stands and when she stops standing. Man, that would be kick butt great to have. I do all the heat checking, with my eyeballs. I do use Estrotect and/or crayon, and mud lines down their sides, and ruffled tail heads, and clear discharge, and perky ears, etc, etc.
I have a tech that comes twice a day. Sometimes at 9 am, sometimes at 11 am for morning heats, than might be ready to come back at 2 pm or 4 pm. Tech is what is "hit & miss" around here. But, we get them AI'd in a 65 day time period - extremely great conception rate. If we breed while they are actively standing, I hit them with GNRH. Which, IMO, you are doing yourself an injustice not to take advantage of hormone tools.
Trust me, I (maybe WE) are jealous of your heat detection system - although I love spending time walking thru my cows and it is good for the temperament of calves.

 

[Putangitangi]

...Why wouldn't I set things up differently?, maybe cash has something to do with it. In my ideal setup ...

Yeah, yeah, wouldn't we all? Few of us have the sort of money you want to pretend would answer my question. You've the dream heat-detection system, so you obviously prioritise some fairly serious spending already.

... although I love spending time walking thru my cows and it is good for the temperament of calves.

It does a world of good for the scatty yearlings too! I'm taming mine with every three-hour visit, scratching tails, getting them used to my presence behind them.
I used a bit of Chisum semen last year and two of his daughters come over to eat my shirt while I scratch under their chins. I've never had such quiet calves. They'll be trouble later, if I'm not careful!

 

[CattleMan1920]

Would people buy bulls from you with that hypothetical setup? I can imagine them complaining that your cattle have never been exposed to real world conditions.

Ken

Exactly, they would find anything to complain about. Last night we had flash flooding, I thought we would have to throw our cattle life preservers

When you add in the endless mud, the hills, the oppressive heat in the summer, more rain, freezing rain in the winters, and sometimes snow. I think it's safe to say that our cattle endure real-world conditions.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded - I think what most are having a hard time "grasping" is your comments about breeding at possibly the wrong timing. First, there is a HUGE window of time to get a cow bred (in comparison to thinking it has to be exact). With your state of the art heat detection system, that evidently tells you when she starts messing around, when she actually stands and when she stops standing. Man, that would be kick butt great to have. I do all the heat checking, with my eyeballs. I do use Estrotect and/or crayon, and mud lines down their sides, and ruffled tail heads, and clear discharge, and perky ears, etc, etc.
I have a tech that comes twice a day. Sometimes at 9 am, sometimes at 11 am for morning heats, than might be ready to come back at 2 pm or 4 pm. Tech is what is "hit & miss" around here. But, we get them AI'd in a 65 day time period - extremely great conception rate. If we breed while they are actively standing, I hit them with GNRH. Which, IMO, you are doing yourself an injustice not to take advantage of hormone tools.
Trust me, I (maybe WE) are jealous of your heat detection system - although I love spending time walking thru my cows and it is good for the temperament of calves.

Jeanne, I am around the cows/heifers a lot, I hand feed them daily. so I can watch them closely, and I also go out and walk amongst them when the weather is decent, which it hasn't been in a long time. I'm not expert at the timing but here is what I look for when determining the heat:

Obviously sniffing and mounting
I like to see a lot of discharge

and then I compare it with the Moo Monitor. The monitor is a machine and it can have errors, for example, when I drop in a new hay bale into the ring and it has been a night of heavy rain or really cold, the cows can get pretty vigorous in their eating and make their alert go off, but it's usually over in an hour or less and I know for sure it's a false alarm. However, when I see the two things above and I get an alert like this below:



Then it's game on. You may think this is not correct, but ask Ron, we have been having some crazy weather. It could be 55 one day and pouring rain, then to 20, then back to 60 the following day, it has caused the heats to be strange across the entire group I have collars on, which is right at 40. One is an anomaly, the whole group is a trend.

Here is the ideal setup, from my observations with the Moo Monitor data. When the temps drop to 15-20 degrees and it's dry and they are comfortable, the heats can easily last 18-24 hours, but what I'm seeing across the group are heats that last 12-14 hours and are sometimes "light" and hard to detect. You wouldn't know it if you were casually watching from the truck and they were out in the field. You might see a little bit of sniffing, but not raging heat.

If you look at the chart, this heifer started getting warmed up for the heat when the rumination dropped (horizonatal green line), then she ramped up. We bred this one early because our guy had to get out of here early, but had we waited to the following morning, she would have been over at about 8:00 a.m. So all in all, around 7:30 p.m. to 8:00 the next morning. Pretty normal, but short. One thing I have found because I use sexed semen frequently and we are successful with it, is that where you see that green rumination line make a "v" is where you need to AI them. That is THE SWEET SPOT! In this case it would have been the middle of the night. Hence my remarks. Before or after that spot and your conception rates drop. I have the data to prove it so does Dairymaster/Moo Monitor in Ireland. They have confirmed the data with other beef producers who use this system in Europe.

As for being fancy, come over some time and see my totally sh..t fence, barns, etc. Our pennies go into the cattle and the system, not vanity items. I figure niceties can come much later. Way later at that. People crack jokes about the system all the time, but I drive an old rusty truck, and the people that are cracking jokes are driving new trucks. I think this system will return more than a truck will, just my opinion. Also, most cattle producers would NEVER share this information with anyone, they would guard it, we don't see things like that, we have tried to get Dairymaster more business in the area, and have been very open about what we are doing. Dairymaster told us that as of 2018 we were the only beef herd in North America to use it, most of the systems they install are for dairy. It's not the only one in Kentucky, the University of Kentucky uses it for dairy, and several other operations, but nobody else on a beef herd.

One more thing this does beside heat detection, and a feature that I value it highly for, is that it can tell you if a cow is sick in VERY short order. Last summer, one of our top cows must have gotten into something and she had brutal diarrhea. She is a big cow and under the shade trees she looked fine, she moved fine, but she was very sick. We brought her in within 30 minutes of the alert, the vet came out, and she, in fact, was in bad shape, a long time seasoned vet, he said "cows can go quickly with this in 95 degree weather, good thing you were able to get her up". Without the system, I would have seen it, but this allowed me to see it very quickly and get medicine in her. Losing her would have been a decent chunk of what the system cost, so I think it's making sense for us. I can also spot foot injuries with it as well. It watches them like a hawk 24/7.

 

[Putangitangi]

Well you believe you have the best set-up in the world, and that makes you happy. You just seem very defensive about it all, which has prompted some of our questions.

When on that chart did she start standing heat? When did she stop. I don't understand "getting warmed up for the heat" in relation for the heat signs I watch for.

How long have you been using this system and how long have you been breeding and what did you do for heat detection before using the system?

 

[True Grit Farms]

Branded, I think the cattle monitor is a great tool. Common sense says the more tools you have the better job you should be able to do. I enjoy going and traveling so I'll have to stick with a newer truck. We went away from AI because it was so time consuming and requires dedication to your cows. Really makes you question who's working for who? For me the best part of the cow business is sale day, and making hay....when everything is working right.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As I said, I sure am NOT criticizing the system - I would add it my arsenal in a heartbeat, but I am too successful at AI to warrant the expense. I recently was talking to a Genex Regional guy and he was telling me about their ruminant monitors for the dairy. Very impressive.
I have cameras in my two barns and some people poo-poo me for that. It has saved numerous calves - just one pays for the systems - and I get to lay in bed and check all the pens during Jan & Feb bitter cold nights.
And, yes, I understand the weather. We have been having the 60 degree swings all summer fall and now winter. Brutal. I am currently breeding my fall calvers.

 

[Bright Raven]

I agree with James on the estrus behavior. It has been very challenging with the severe weather. I use visual heat detection and I see the influence of weather on their behavior. If a cow comes in during one of these winter deluges of rain, all you will see of estrus behavior is some clear discharge, a few attempts to jump other cows, some sniffing, chin resting, etc. The other cows just hunker down and want nothing do do with her. I have bred on some of these "suppressed" estrus cycles and some stick and some don't.

James is correct. If it gets cold and the mud gets frozen, the air is dry and no precipitation, they display strong estrus behavior.

I don't know what is causing the climate change but I sure don't like it. I hope it is just an extreme and not the new normal.

 

[Ebenezer]

Most AI and natural breeding seasons in managed herds are less than a year-long effort. There is a reduced labor issue in that decision, a more uniform calf crop, groups of contemporaries are easier to manage and bring to their levels of production, infertile cattle can easily be identified and culled and if we choose a "breeding season" we can pick the times of the year which are seasonally best for us or raise our rate of success based on temperatures, feed and environment. To me, that is a big problem in what is being presented as high tech but missing out on easier management in basic steps. Just an observation after reading.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I am so sorry to hear how much some folks are struggling with the weather.

I was just thinking this morning, how odd it is to have mud here in January (Nebraska). Looks like 50s all week. We were blessed with good rains this summer. Only had to run the pivots a time or two and even then, I don't think it was nescessary.

But no coats in January? I feel like I'm back in Texas.

 

[CattleMan1920]

I'm not being defensive, just showing you how we do things here. To each their own. I liked the Dairymaster system from day one, but took a long time to pull the trigger on it. The system was designed for dairy cattle, and it was not a sure thing for beef, but it works.

As for how we did It before? We just tried to observe, and watch for the signs. We got cows and heifers settled, but not as efficiently as we do now.

Whoever is not bred by 3rd week of February (BioPRYN test) is going to be serviced by a bull, we aren't dragging things out past then, but I think we will have 90% settled AI by that time.

With the weather we have been having, it's crossed my mind MANY times Ebenezer, "just let one of the bulls take care of things and take it easy" but it also crosses my mind that a son or daughter from AI is something my "future self" will probably thank me for versus doing what was convenient. That's not right for everyone, but it is for our operation.

I have little doubt that if only herd bulls were used that it would be an extended breeding season, it would probably be over rather quickly.