Heat Detection for AI

[Redgully]

Well Ron, it is nice to know you are human after all (getting some rebreeds). I have no hangups about breeding on early heats. The small dose of AI might sometimes get a bit lost in there (bigger space) and might be more suited to natural service but I don't consider it any risk. Mares are often serviced on their foal heat with good results (7-10 days post partum). I think if they are on heat they are ready to give it a go.

Ken

But if the lining of the uterus is still coming away and going through regeneration introducing bacteria that can come with penetrating the cervix can risk metritis and then lead to endometritis. A bull will deposit outside the cervix so less risk.

I had a lower conception rate the years i did cidr programs. That is why after giving a shot of lut i let that cycle go and have my date for when she will cycle next so i get her on a natural cycle. I guess OCD!

 

[CattleMan1920]

It is in my experience always the second "heat" that is the real one. I've spent too much semen and counted enough gestations to have figured it out. The problem is that still doesn't tell me when I'm seeing the false first one in a cow! Only happens here occasionally and it's an expensive pain in the whatever.

I fully appreciate that. I too have wasted semen doing the guessing game.

Mine are all natural heats, I never synch. Just about to start today! Calving planned for October next year.

We've been pushed hard to synchronize and to use Lutalyse by people we do business with, which we have not done. Instead we give the cow everything she needs from a nutrition standpoint and WAIT...we wait for the first heat post calving, then AI on the second heat, and it's been a successful strategy, with most settling on first service. In this day and age we all want to push things to happen faster and on our schedule as well, but nature has another plan. We have no issues whatsoever with people who sync and use lutalyse, that's their business, and we understand why time is of the essence, but with that said we've not had any success when we rush things. We have AI'd some cows 5 times before they settled, but, and a big BUT, we are going for a particular animal, we would far rather have a son or daughter of SAV President for example than a son of a cleanup bull, and we will wait for that calf. The value of one over the other is daylight and dark. Not to mention how that animal will influence the herd for years to come. As it's been said here before, we use a sophisticated heat detection system, and it monitors all our females (under 1 year excluded) 24/7, and one thing is for sure none of our animals, who are in excellent condition, come into heat on a rigid fixed schedule, they come in when they come in, and when they come into heat they get bred AI. Some have heats for 4-6 hours some 20-26 hours, some are intense, some are hardly noticeable, but all are very different from one another. Some of our best calves have come from cows that were very difficult to settle. The only time a bull is used is if we feel that it has become futile, and they usually get the cow settled. This plan is not for a producer going after numbers but it works well if you must have progeny from a certain sire. We think it's worth the wait. We think that environmental conditions affect the heats because we can prove it with data, for instance when the temperature drops sharply, we will have heats occur shortly thereafter, when it's raining hard and the weather is horrible the heats will shorten in duration. When it's very hot in the summer the heats will be weak, when it's 15-20 degrees outside the heats will be intense. This isn't just visual observation, it's backed up with data from biometric collars on the animal. We are
not scientists, and we may sound naive, but we have our reservations when it comes to forcing an animal to conform to an artificial timetable, it's not how nature works. Like I said, our plan doesn't have to be your plan, but what was said above is from intensely observing a herd multiple times daily for heats, in person, and with cutting edge technology as backup.

 

[Bright Raven]

We've been pushed hard to synchronize and to use Lutalyse by people we do business with, which we have not done. Instead we give the cow everything she needs from a nutrition standpoint and WAIT...we wait for the first heat post calving, then AI on the second heat, and it's been a successful strategy, with most settling on first service. In this day and age we all want to push things to happen faster and on our schedule as well, but nature has another plan. We have no issues whatsoever with people who sync and use lutalyse, that's their business, and we understand why time is of the essence, but with that said we've not had any success when we rush things. We have AI'd some cows 5 times before they settled, but, and a big BUT, we are going for a particular animal, we would far rather have a son or daughter of SAV President for example than a son of a cleanup bull, and we will wait for that calf. The value of one over the other is daylight and dark. Not to mention how that animal will influence the herd for years to come. As it's been said here before, we use a sophisticated heat detection system, and it monitors all our females (under 1 year excluded) 24/7, and one thing is for sure none of our animals, who are in excellent condition, come into heat on a rigid fixed schedule, they come in when they come in, and when they come into heat they get bred AI. Some have heats for 4-6 hours some 20-26 hours, some are intense, some are hardly noticeable, but all are very different from one another. Some of our best calves have come from cows that were very difficult to settle. The only time a bull is used is if we feel that it has become futile, and they usually get the cow settled. This plan is not for a producer going after numbers but it works well if you must have progeny from a certain sire. We think it's worth the wait. We think that environmental conditions affect the heats because we can prove it with data, for instance when the temperature drops sharply, we will have heats occur shortly thereafter, when it's raining hard and the weather is horrible the heats will shorten in duration. When it's very hot in the summer the heats will be weak, when it's 15-20 degrees outside the heats will be intense. This isn't just visual observation, it's backed up with data from biometric collars on the animal. We are
not scientists, and we may sound naive, but we have our reservations when it comes to forcing an animal to conform to an artificial timetable, it's not how nature works. Like I said, our plan doesn't have to be your plan, but what was said above is from intensely observing a herd multiple times daily for heats, in person, and with cutting edge technology as backup.

That is a good philosophy.

 

[Bright Raven]

Well Ron, it is nice to know you are human after all (getting some rebreeds). I have no hangups about breeding on early heats. The small dose of AI might sometimes get a bit lost in there (bigger space) and might be more suited to natural service but I don't consider it any risk. Mares are often serviced on their foal heat with good results (7-10 days post partum). I think if they are on heat they are ready to give it a go.

Ken

That is a concept that I have thought about but never seen anyone mention. When I AI some of the bigger girls, it takes the entire rod shaft to get through the cervix. If they are not far off from calving, the uterus is as big as a shopping bag. I have wondered if I should put in an extra straw to make sure I get the job done.

 

[True Grit Farms]

We've been pushed hard to synchronize and to use Lutalyse by people we do business with, which we have not done. Instead we give the cow everything she needs from a nutrition standpoint and WAIT...we wait for the first heat post calving, then AI on the second heat, and it's been a successful strategy, with most settling on first service. In this day and age we all want to push things to happen faster and on our schedule as well, but nature has another plan. We have no issues whatsoever with people who sync and use lutalyse, that's their business, and we understand why time is of the essence, but with that said we've not had any success when we rush things. We have AI'd some cows 5 times before they settled, but, and a big BUT, we are going for a particular animal, we would far rather have a son or daughter of SAV President for example than a son of a cleanup bull, and we will wait for that calf. The value of one over the other is daylight and dark. Not to mention how that animal will influence the herd for years to come. As it's been said here before, we use a sophisticated heat detection system, and it monitors all our females (under 1 year excluded) 24/7, and one thing is for sure none of our animals, who are in excellent condition, come into heat on a rigid fixed schedule, they come in when they come in, and when they come into heat they get bred AI. Some have heats for 4-6 hours some 20-26 hours, some are intense, some are hardly noticeable, but all are very different from one another. Some of our best calves have come from cows that were very difficult to settle. The only time a bull is used is if we feel that it has become futile, and they usually get the cow settled. This plan is not for a producer going after numbers but it works well if you must have progeny from a certain sire. We think it's worth the wait. We think that environmental conditions affect the heats because we can prove it with data, for instance when the temperature drops sharply, we will have heats occur shortly thereafter, when it's raining hard and the weather is horrible the heats will shorten in duration. When it's very hot in the summer the heats will be weak, when it's 15-20 degrees outside the heats will be intense. This isn't just visual observation, it's backed up with data from biometric collars on the animal. We are
not scientists, and we may sound naive, but we have our reservations when it comes to forcing an animal to conform to an artificial timetable, it's not how nature works. Like I said, our plan doesn't have to be your plan, but what was said above is from intensely observing a herd multiple times daily for heats, in person, and with cutting edge technology as backup.

That is a good philosophy.

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html

 

[Bright Raven]

We've been pushed hard to synchronize and to use Lutalyse by people we do business with, which we have not done. Instead we give the cow everything she needs from a nutrition standpoint and WAIT...we wait for the first heat post calving, then AI on the second heat, and it's been a successful strategy, with most settling on first service. In this day and age we all want to push things to happen faster and on our schedule as well, but nature has another plan. We have no issues whatsoever with people who sync and use lutalyse, that's their business, and we understand why time is of the essence, but with that said we've not had any success when we rush things. We have AI'd some cows 5 times before they settled, but, and a big BUT, we are going for a particular animal, we would far rather have a son or daughter of SAV President for example than a son of a cleanup bull, and we will wait for that calf. The value of one over the other is daylight and dark. Not to mention how that animal will influence the herd for years to come. As it's been said here before, we use a sophisticated heat detection system, and it monitors all our females (under 1 year excluded) 24/7, and one thing is for sure none of our animals, who are in excellent condition, come into heat on a rigid fixed schedule, they come in when they come in, and when they come into heat they get bred AI. Some have heats for 4-6 hours some 20-26 hours, some are intense, some are hardly noticeable, but all are very different from one another. Some of our best calves have come from cows that were very difficult to settle. The only time a bull is used is if we feel that it has become futile, and they usually get the cow settled. This plan is not for a producer going after numbers but it works well if you must have progeny from a certain sire. We think it's worth the wait. We think that environmental conditions affect the heats because we can prove it with data, for instance when the temperature drops sharply, we will have heats occur shortly thereafter, when it's raining hard and the weather is horrible the heats will shorten in duration. When it's very hot in the summer the heats will be weak, when it's 15-20 degrees outside the heats will be intense. This isn't just visual observation, it's backed up with data from biometric collars on the animal. We are
not scientists, and we may sound naive, but we have our reservations when it comes to forcing an animal to conform to an artificial timetable, it's not how nature works. Like I said, our plan doesn't have to be your plan, but what was said above is from intensely observing a herd multiple times daily for heats, in person, and with cutting edge technology as backup.

That is a good philosophy.

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hjate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html

Being more specific:

I like the philosophy of not pushing cows as hard as some do, including myself. Specifically, giving them more time after partum to repair the uterus. Even though I like that philosophy, I still like my program. I want my calves in a tight group.

 

[Redgully]

We've been pushed hard to synchronize and to use Lutalyse by people we do business with, which we have not done. Instead we give the cow everything she needs from a nutrition standpoint and WAIT...we wait for the first heat post calving, then AI on the second heat, and it's been a successful strategy, with most settling on first service. In this day and age we all want to push things to happen faster and on our schedule as well, but nature has another plan. We have no issues whatsoever with people who sync and use lutalyse, that's their business, and we understand why time is of the essence, but with that said we've not had any success when we rush things. We have AI'd some cows 5 times before they settled, but, and a big BUT, we are going for a particular animal, we would far rather have a son or daughter of SAV President for example than a son of a cleanup bull, and we will wait for that calf. The value of one over the other is daylight and dark. Not to mention how that animal will influence the herd for years to come. As it's been said here before, we use a sophisticated heat detection system, and it monitors all our females (under 1 year excluded) 24/7, and one thing is for sure none of our animals, who are in excellent condition, come into heat on a rigid fixed schedule, they come in when they come in, and when they come into heat they get bred AI. Some have heats for 4-6 hours some 20-26 hours, some are intense, some are hardly noticeable, but all are very different from one another. Some of our best calves have come from cows that were very difficult to settle. The only time a bull is used is if we feel that it has become futile, and they usually get the cow settled. This plan is not for a producer going after numbers but it works well if you must have progeny from a certain sire. We think it's worth the wait. We think that environmental conditions affect the heats because we can prove it with data, for instance when the temperature drops sharply, we will have heats occur shortly thereafter, when it's raining hard and the weather is horrible the heats will shorten in duration. When it's very hot in the summer the heats will be weak, when it's 15-20 degrees outside the heats will be intense. This isn't just visual observation, it's backed up with data from biometric collars on the animal. We are
not scientists, and we may sound naive, but we have our reservations when it comes to forcing an animal to conform to an artificial timetable, it's not how nature works. Like I said, our plan doesn't have to be your plan, but what was said above is from intensely observing a herd multiple times daily for heats, in person, and with cutting edge technology as backup.

That is a good philosophy.

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html

I think you may be slightly misinformed. A bull would most likely settle these cow first time every time. With a.i. you can't blame the cow as timing is a critical and a bull would get that right each and every time.

 

[True Grit Farms]

That is a good philosophy.

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html

I think you may be slightly misinformed. A bull would most likely settle these cow first time every time. With a.i. you can't blame the cow as timing is a critical and a bull would get that right each and every time.

If you can't get a cow to stick in 3 tries she should have her head cut off. Or you need to find someone else to do the AI work. ************* is touting state of the art heat detection technology and the best feed and mineral programs available. There's no room for making excuses, it's the cattle or the AI technician.

 

[True Grit Farms]

That is a good philosophy.

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hjate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html

Being more specific:

I like the philosophy of not pushing cows as hard as some do, including myself. Specifically, giving them more time after partum to repair the uterus. Even though I like that philosophy, I still like my program. I want my calves in a tight group.

How many cows have you had to breed 5 times before they stuck to AI? You have a good health program and a good grasp of what your doing breeding cows, well besides the chrome. My thinking is what ************* is doing is a disservice to the Angus breed. ************* is not selling sale barn cattle, but sometimes it sounds like they should be.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In a herd that has no calving SEASON, yes, you can just wait for a heat. Sooner or later, they will show a good heat. Most of us cannot afford heat detection technology - but we are all drooling over you having it!! It is not cost effective in the real world of cow/calf operations.
I keep a 63 day calving season. My cows generally are cycling 30-35 days after calving. Cows/heifers that calve the 1st 2 weeks of our "season", have had at least 1 heat (usually 2-3) when it is time to start breeding. Those that calve in the last 2 weeks, may get bred on their first heat. If that first heat is less than 30 days, I usually pass on that heat & lutalyse them.

 

[NEFarmwife]

I fully appreciate that. I too have wasted semen doing the guessing game.

Mine are all natural heats, I never synch. Just about to start today! Calving planned for October next year.

We've been pushed hard to synchronize and to use Lutalyse by people we do business with, which we have not done. Instead we give the cow everything she needs from a nutrition standpoint and WAIT...we wait for the first heat post calving, then AI on the second heat, and it's been a successful strategy, with most settling on first service. In this day and age we all want to push things to happen faster and on our schedule as well, but nature has another plan. We have no issues whatsoever with people who sync and use lutalyse, that's their business, and we understand why time is of the essence, but with that said we've not had any success when we rush things. We have AI'd some cows 5 times before they settled, but, and a big BUT, we are going for a particular animal, we would far rather have a son or daughter of SAV President for example than a son of a cleanup bull, and we will wait for that calf. The value of one over the other is daylight and dark. Not to mention how that animal will influence the herd for years to come. As it's been said here before, we use a sophisticated heat detection system, and it monitors all our females (under 1 year excluded) 24/7, and one thing is for sure none of our animals, who are in excellent condition, come into heat on a rigid fixed schedule, they come in when they come in, and when they come into heat they get bred AI. Some have heats for 4-6 hours some 20-26 hours, some are intense, some are hardly noticeable, but all are very different from one another. Some of our best calves have come from cows that were very difficult to settle. The only time a bull is used is if we feel that it has become futile, and they usually get the cow settled. This plan is not for a producer going after numbers but it works well if you must have progeny from a certain sire. We think it's worth the wait. We think that environmental conditions affect the heats because we can prove it with data, for instance when the temperature drops sharply, we will have heats occur shortly thereafter, when it's raining hard and the weather is horrible the heats will shorten in duration. When it's very hot in the summer the heats will be weak, when it's 15-20 degrees outside the heats will be intense. This isn't just visual observation, it's backed up with data from biometric collars on the animal. We are
not scientists, and we may sound naive, but we have our reservations when it comes to forcing an animal to conform to an artificial timetable, it's not how nature works. Like I said, our plan doesn't have to be your plan, but what was said above is from intensely observing a herd multiple times daily for heats, in person, and with cutting edge technology as backup.

Curious about your calving window and if you feel that it hurts you a little when it comes to selling? Maybe your window is still tight?

I ask because we also farm 5000 acres. This year, we'll calve out over 500 cows and 100 heifers. We need a tight window, so that we can get to the fields to prepare for planting season and anything that hasn't calved by first week of March, gets sold. We also don't like calving in mud. Most folks around here start calving when we finish.

I ask about selling because we as buyers, won't buy a bred PB cow no matter how good she looks or how cheap she may sell, because she calves outside our window.

Syncing is the only way to achieve our calving window. It would be next to impossible to breed on observed natural heats.

 

[Bright Raven]

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hjate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html

Being more specific:

I like the philosophy of not pushing cows as hard as some do, including myself. Specifically, giving them more time after partum to repair the uterus. Even though I like that philosophy, I still like my program. I want my calves in a tight group.

How many cows have you had to breed 5 times before they stuck to AI? You have a good health program and a good grasp of what your doing breeding cows, well besides the chrome. My thinking is what ************* is doing is a disservice to the Angus breed. ************* is not selling sale barn cattle, but sometimes it sounds like they should be.

Answer: Never. That would push that calf out of my calving season. I want my calves on the ground in a 60 day window from September 1 until October 31.

I disagree with your criticism of *************. If I were going to make an assessment of their operation, I would speculate that they produce excellent cattle and their buyers are happy.

 

[CattleMan1920]

[/quote]

Curious about your calving window and if you feel that it hurts you a little when it comes to selling? Maybe your window is still tight?

I ask because we also farm 5000 acres. This year, we'll calve out over 500 cows and 100 heifers. We need a tight window, so that we can get to the fields to prepare for planting season and anything that hasn't calved by first week of March, gets sold. We also don't like calving in mud. Most folks around here start calving when we finish.

I ask about selling because we as buyers, won't buy a bred PB cow no matter how good she looks or how cheap she may sell, because she calves outside our window.

Syncing is the only way to achieve our calving window. It would be next to impossible to breed on observed natural heats.[/quote]

You are in an entirely different situation than we are, and what you are doing makes total sense given the scope of your operation. We prefer to calve in the fall, or late spring, essentially when it's good weather, which seems to be a thing of the past. However, with that said, we have calves come year round. Summer is not ideal because of the heat and flies, but we keep our gals in small groups, 8-10, with lots of shade and access to waterers, it doesn't get too messy that way. If a calf is born in August for example, we try to shoot the dam with Vetgun right after she gives birth, and we keep the pastures mowed low. It's intensive, but getting a certain pedigree is what we are after. At this point we have most of our herd scheduled to calf in the fall of 2019, with a few coming over the next three months.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Being more specific:

I like the philosophy of not pushing cows as hard as some do, including myself. Specifically, giving them more time after partum to repair the uterus. Even though I like that philosophy, I still like my program. I want my calves in a tight group.

How many cows have you had to breed 5 times before they stuck to AI? You have a good health program and a good grasp of what your doing breeding cows, well besides the chrome. My thinking is what ************* is doing is a disservice to the Angus breed. ************* is not selling sale barn cattle, but sometimes it sounds like they should be.

Answer: Never. That would push that calf out of my calving season. I want my calves on the ground in a 60 day window from September 1 until October 31.

I disagree with your criticism of *************. If I were going to make an assessment of their operation, I would speculate that they produce excellent cattle and their buyers are happy.

With all due respect, I would put our bulls up against all comers. They have proven themselves. For example, most of our bulls head to Eastern Kentucky or an area like where Bright Raven is located. You need excellent feet and structure to handle that land, not to mention an athletic build, and climbing ropes. Our bulls are not powder puffs. Their dams are high performance cows have a long lineage of high $EN, $B, DMI, and HP, and about half have Pathfinders in their pedigree. After selling a bull, we follow up multiple times to see if that bull is performing, not because we are worried, but because the feedback allows for adjustments to our program, and if something is not working for the commercial producer, then we can fix it quickly. We know that when a bull leaves our ranch that his life is about to change drastically, it's time to get to work and perform. We sold a couple of bulls a while back and I know for a fact that the buyer was going to work the living daylights out of them, they were about 16 months old and in excellent shape. Did they perform, yes! He put them on about 60 head of cattle and then let his relative borrow them for more action. That is in no way how I would handle things, but it worked for them, and they have a lot of calves to show for it, healthy ones at that. Another client, bought this bull, put him on a group of about 20 in the early fall, I called him back the other day and he said "all done" they are settled. I asked, "did he fall apart", the answer was "No, he is still in very good condition". Another satisfied client...



That's what I'm shooting for, not how many bulls I can run out the door as fast as I can. Nothing wrong with that strategy if it works for you, but it's not how we do things. Word of mouth when it comes to bull buyers is priceless, you sell somebody an excellent bull that gets the job done and that client will keep coming back for more, and if you are improving your genetics with each generation, then they will keep improving their herd year after year. A win/win for both parties.

The main reason that we choose to run our operation the way we do (breeding 5 times on cow if necessary, which rarely happens by the way) is this, to me a son of SAV President or Harvestor, etc is vastly more valuable to our operation and ultimately our clients than a bull that was sired out of a homegrown bull. We breed really nice animals, but at the end of the day, I cannot breed an example that would compete with SAV President or Baldridge Colonel, at least not yet. What I can do however is bring a President son or Colonel son to commercial cattlemen in Kentucky and the surrounding states at an affordable price, hence giving them an opportunity to introduce well above average genetics into their commercial herd and have steers that will wean heavy, as well as daughters that are definite keepers. I was speaking with my semen rep the other day, and he implied that Kentucky weaning weights are typically in the 500 range for adjusted 205, and in speaking with some producers around the area they confirm that as well. Our typical bull calf will wean in the high 600-800 range with no creep feeder. I expect that to go higher as we improve our genetics. If our bulls can help the commercial producer get another 50-100 pounds on the scale with genetics alone, then it was worth those couple extra tries to get that AI son. As for our AI daughters, we keep them all and keep stacking the genetics. This isn't the first time we have heard criticism, but at the end of the day it's all about results, not chatter, and we have the results. Another thing I have noticed, buyers like to buy off the ranch, they like to come and inspect a bull at their pace, they like to see the dam, they like to see how the bull was developed, etc. I can spend a few hours with a bull buyer when they come out, but I can assure you that when that bull leaves here, they have bought with confidence, and feel assured about what they have purchased. We aren't mass production, but I don't think we could deliver the product we do if we operated like that. I like Pappy bourbon, and Ardbeg scotch, neither one of those are mass produced, but they definitely deliver a different experience than a well drink.

 

[CattleMan1920]

[/quote]
Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html[/quote]

You place all the blame on the dam, what about the environment, we had a brutally hot summer, and almost 80 inches of rain so far this year? or how about the A.I. tech, or any number of variables? Here is a bull from natural service, about 17 months old, he is for sale right now, $3000, not a bad bull, would work fine for a commercial producer, 12 categories over breed average, high scrotal, high HP, calving ease, but definitely not an A.I. son. You tell me, would it be easier to sell him, or a son of Basin Payweight 1682?



I'm sure you could pick him apart from a..s to snout. With that said, his dam, an 8-year-old cow, settled right away to a bull we had her with via natural service, no issues whatsoever, but after she gave birth to this guy we AI'd her to EXAR Denver 2002b about 60 days post-calving, it took 3 times to get her settled. How do you explain, maybe we suck at A.I. or it could be that A.I. is a bit more challenging than everyone would have you think. A bull is going to pound it out around the clock, you only have one shot with a small vial of semen and you are hoping that you can get her up at the absolute right time in the cycle. I think the bull has the advantage. If you think our operation is a bunch of culls, you are mistaken we settled 14 heifers, with over half to sexed semen (SAV Raindance) in the past month on the first try with no synch or Lutalyse. If we wanted to, we could breed our entire herd to SAV Raindance sexed semen and double our females in one season, we have options, tell me who can do that with a few bulls out in the field? As for the sale barn comment, it would be like flicking a switch, if we wanted to put a group of say 30 heifers with one of our AI sons, I'm pretty certain, he would go through them like a hot knife through butter, with the majority if not every single one settled in a 60 day window. I just don't want grandsons or granddaughters of AI bulls, I want direct sons and daughters. If it was all about how many we could have, I would have them expanding like rabbits out here. It's about WHAT we have over how many we have. More than 50% of our existing herd has Pathfinder dams in their lineage, and then we use AI on top of that, which brings a lot of Pathfinder lineage on the sire's side. Most of our AI sons or daughters can count multiple Pathfinders on both dam and sire sides of the pedigree, multiple generations back, and I can prove that to you with our registrations. Maternal traits come first and foremost in our breeding program. I'm not trying to brag, but I have to defend our animals against off the cuff remarks. If anything, it's ME that is causing the multiple attempts, not the animal, it's not always feasible for me to get the cow or heifer in at the absolute right time. I use a monitor and sometimes a cow will be in the sweet spot to breed at 2:30 a.m. on a night that is pouring rain. Am I going to go breed her at that time and under those conditions, most likely no, is a bull? You bet. That is why it can take multiple attempts, I may not breed her at the perfect time, I might wait until the next day which may be too late, or I will breed her too early because I know that I won't be getting up at 3:00 a.m. to breed a cow. I hope this lengthy explanation clears the air.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Really? Sounds like ************* is doing their best to produce cattle that are hard to get bred. Personally I call those type of cattle culls, and I don't care how good they look or what pedigree they have. And to make matters worse their willing to pass that trait on to their customers. I would sure hate to be the poor ........ who bought a heifer or cow that took 5 tries to get pregnant under ideal conditions and management. I'll stick with the UGA HERD guidelines, they do things the right way. IMO All the heifers get fed, bred and culled. No special treatment and no bad traits to pass on.
http://beef.caes.uga.edu/programs/georg ... rd-pr.html[/quote]

You place all the blame on the dam, what about the environment, we had a brutally hot summer, and almost 80 inches of rain so far this year? or how about the A.I. tech, or any number of variables? Here is a bull from natural service, about 17 months old, he is for sale right now, $3000, not a bad bull, would work fine for a commercial producer, 12 categories over breed average, high scrotal, high HP, calving ease, but definitely not an A.I. son. You tell me, would it be easier to sell him, or a son of Basin Payweight 1682?



I'm sure you could pick him apart from a..s to snout. With that said, his dam, an 8-year-old cow, settled right away to a bull we had her with via natural service, no issues whatsoever, but after she gave birth to this guy we AI'd her to EXAR Denver 2002b about 60 days post-calving, it took 3 times to get her settled. How do you explain, maybe we suck at A.I. or it could be that A.I. is a bit more challenging than everyone would have you think. A bull is going to pound it out around the clock, you only have one shot with a small vial of semen and you are hoping that you can get her up at the absolute right time in the cycle. I think the bull has the advantage. If you think our operation is a bunch of culls, you are mistaken we settled 14 heifers, with over half to sexed semen (SAV Raindance) in the past month on the first try with no synch or Lutalyse. If we wanted to, we could breed our entire herd to SAV Raindance sexed semen and double our females in one season, we have options, tell me who can do that with a few bulls out in the field? As for the sale barn comment, it would be like flicking a switch, if we wanted to put a group of say 30 heifers with one of our AI sons, I'm pretty certain, he would go through them like a hot knife through butter, with the majority if not every single one settled in a 60 day window. I just don't want grandsons or granddaughters of AI bulls, I want direct sons and daughters. If it was all about how many we could have, I would have them expanding like rabbits out here. It's about WHAT we have over how many we have. More than 50% of our existing herd has Pathfinder dams in their lineage, and then we use AI on top of that, which brings a lot of Pathfinder lineage on the sire's side. Most of our AI sons or daughters can count multiple Pathfinders on both dam and sire sides of the pedigree, multiple generations back, and I can prove that to you with our registrations. Maternal traits come first and foremost in our breeding program. I'm not trying to brag, but I have to defend our animals against off the cuff remarks. If anything, it's ME that is causing the multiple attempts, not the animal, it's not always feasible for me to get the cow or heifer in at the absolute right time. I use a monitor and sometimes a cow will be in the sweet spot to breed at 2:30 a.m. on a night that is pouring rain. Am I going to go breed her at that time and under those conditions, most likely no, is a bull? You bet. That is why it can take multiple attempts, I may not breed her at the perfect time, I might wait until the next day which may be too late, or I will breed her too early because I know that I won't be getting up at 3:00 a.m. to breed a cow. I hope this lengthy explanation clears the air.[/quote]


Your management seems to work for your operation and that is all that really matters. I depend on a breeder to sell me an animal that's proven fertile, for the commercial cattleman that's the number one trait. I just believe in culling cows that don't work like they should. I'll cull a registered cow as quickly as a sale barn junkie, no excuses.

 

[Ebenezer]

How do you explain, maybe we suck at A.I. or it could be that A.I. is a bit more challenging than everyone would have you think.

If the weather is hot, the excess condition of the cows can slow the loss of core heat and cause the embryo to not attach. Fat does not aid fertility in those conditions.

I understand that you sell named cattle and calves of known herd and sire names for a higher price, better recognition, ... and you say that they are superior cattle for you and commercial breeders who buy. If you have been using superior AI sires for decades, how long will it take you to have superior cattle, if ever. Seems to be a process where you never quite become a source?

 

[Redgully]

There is a reason why everyone does what they do. People who come up with great a.i . Sires breed to push boundaries and are innovative. But they are not always the best to source breeding stock from. People who bring all these genetics together with the aim of breeding good doing cattle are good to buy breeding stock from. Then there is the people who breed for production, they all exist for the benefit of each other. There is also people who breed pure breds to keep breeds and different genetic lines alive. Personally i feel there is room for everyone and the industry needs all of them. No point arguing which is better because if you are surviving you are doing what is right for you.

 

[CattleMan1920]

How do you explain, maybe we suck at A.I. or it could be that A.I. is a bit more challenging than everyone would have you think.

If the weather is hot, the excess condition of the cows can slow the loss of core heat and cause the embryo to not attach. Fat does not aid fertility in those conditions.

I understand that you sell named cattle and calves of known herd and sire names for a higher price, better recognition, ... and you say that they are superior cattle for you and commercial breeders who buy. If you have been using superior AI sires for decades, how long will it take you to have superior cattle, if ever. Seems to be a process where you never quite become a source?[/quote}

I think our cattle are way above average right now, but that is my opinion, other people may see them and say they aren't worth a sh....t. The quest for superiority is ever changing, in the 60's it was Wye that ruled, now it's SAV, in 40 years who knows??? One thing is for sure I wouldn't be doing myself any favors by picking up a $1k random bull at the stockyards and using him as our sire for 2019. Wouldn't you agree? So with that said, wouldn't it make sense to AI and try to produce the very best I'm capable of and let the chips fall where they may? There are roughly 20,000 head of beef cattle in our county alone according to Gov information. If the biggest Angus producer in our area, along with Boyd Angus, and our operation sold strictly in our little podunk county and everyone used only Angus, there would barely be enough bulls to get the job done, that leaves 119 counties left to serve in Kentucky alone, not to mention other surrounding states. What we produce at Branded is a drop in the bucket versus the overall demand, especially given the size of the beef herd in Kentucky, which is relatively large and growing. Again, why wouldn't I shoot for the best I could when the market is clearly there? I've had people try to convince me that there is no difference at all between a stockyards or homegrown bull and a top AI sire. I disagree, because the results I've had from a phenotypic standpoint and EPD standpoint prove otherwise. I'm sure Select Sires, ABS, and Origen would agree with my views.

 

[bse]

lot of stuff in this thread.
Back to the original. If there in heat and its in my breeding season, they get a straw, the one thing I know for certain if I dont put it in they wont settle. I dont care what heat there on, much better for them to try because if they dont settle, there gone!!!! Ill put a cidr in at 30 days after calving and get along just fine...

Around here there A Id twice(late calvers once) then the bull, If they dont take in 32 days with the bull gone!!!!
I had a group of heifers here for sale, they were Rampage, 4925, Platnium, First Class, Rainmkr, and 2 out of the pasture bull(338 son I raised) the 2 out of my herd bull left first, If I believe in what im doing my bulls should be good enough for me, if I expect them to be good enough to sell....

Branded the One thing that has jumped out to me, You said you have Pathfinders in the pedigree, do you have Pathfinders?
Stringing them out will not make Pathfinders!!