crossbred bull question
- Thread starter pdubdo
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We will have to agree to disagree. Genetic diversity is a good thing imho.
I didn't say we needed to create the next 4-8 breed cross.
But how about breed organizations start praising the fact they aren't angus. Instead of theoughing there hands in the air and changing the rules so they can be a angus cross /black hided organization as well.
I think we will regret the fact that the gene pool among different breeds is so bottle necked and their are very few genetically distinct cow families within each breed.
Silver
Well-known member
simme
Old Dumb Guy
Some good discussion on mineral and copper deficiency and red tinged hair on black cattle. I know that copper deficiency can cause red tinged hair and affect fertility and other things. I wanted to hear the input and the discussion after the subject was brought up. I was already of the opinion that @Jeanne - Simme Valley just stated, and her comments reinforce what I thought. All the calves pictured are in the same pasture. None of the dams have the red tinged hair. If there were a copper deficiency in the forage and soil, I would think that most of the calves would show it as well as the dams. I don't seem to have fertility issues. All are AI bred and majority settle on first service. Good overall health. My thoughts, but again I am no expert on nutrition or minerals. I appreciate all the inputs.
I have observed the issue of reddish baby hair on hetero black simme calves. One of the two calves has a red animal 4 generations back and one has a red animal 8 generations back. Neither has been tested for coat color. Both are sired by homo black sires. They could be hetero black.
My brother had issues years ago with the red tinge on cows as well as some fertility issues and retained placentas and used the copasure bolus which seemed to help. At that time, my daughter was still a "wannabe" vet, but pulled blood on several and did a little research on the issue including copper. I don't remember all the results. My brother eventually "solved" the red tinge issue by transitioning to red cattle.
I have observed the issue of reddish baby hair on hetero black simme calves. One of the two calves has a red animal 4 generations back and one has a red animal 8 generations back. Neither has been tested for coat color. Both are sired by homo black sires. They could be hetero black.
My brother had issues years ago with the red tinge on cows as well as some fertility issues and retained placentas and used the copasure bolus which seemed to help. At that time, my daughter was still a "wannabe" vet, but pulled blood on several and did a little research on the issue including copper. I don't remember all the results. My brother eventually "solved" the red tinge issue by transitioning to red cattle.
faster horses
Well-known member
@Rmc. You have said that before. Have you ever noticed that when cattle have been in a pasture too long that they tend to overconsume mineral yet, when you move them to fresh pasture they cut way back on mineral consumption? That is showing you quality of forage dictates mineral consumption. You can't fool a cow. When they aren't getting enough diserable feed or feed they can't digest, they will overeat mineral. So quality and quantity of forage dictates mineral consumption. I stand by that statement.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
I have fed loose quality mineral 24/7 for many, many years. The cattle definitely eat more or less depending on the forage/season. Totally agree.
You can stand by your statement all you want I have posted numerous article that shows research says different
Dispelling Cattle Mineral Supplementation Myths
Relying on bovine self-control is a good way to spend too much on mineral supplements or have inadequate mineral intake.
nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
@Rmc great article and it is absolutely correct. Salt is the determining factor on consumption. Cattle will definitely NOT pick and choose what supplements they need if given "choices".
It was nice to see them poo-poo trace salt blocks. I've been saying that forever.
But, what I was saying, their consumption of the same mineral year-round, will vary. I know their forage does not have salt in it, but something gets them consuming more or less at different times of the year.
It was nice to see them poo-poo trace salt blocks. I've been saying that forever.
But, what I was saying, their consumption of the same mineral year-round, will vary. I know their forage does not have salt in it, but something gets them consuming more or less at different times of the year.
Yes consumption of the same mineral year round will vary . That has nothing to do with their actual mineral needs or deficiencies at the time . Less mineral consumed does not = no mineral deficiency at the time.
More minerals consumed doesn't =a higher mineral need in the cattle at the time.
Cows can't and don't consume minerals based on their needs at the time . Study after study has proven that cattle can't self regulate mineral intake based on need.
More minerals consumed doesn't =a higher mineral need in the cattle at the time.
Cows can't and don't consume minerals based on their needs at the time . Study after study has proven that cattle can't self regulate mineral intake based on need.
greybeard
Well-known member
This is not always 100% accurate. The problem comes from the fact that it's not (always) enough salt (for the livestock's nutritional needs) and too often, certain forages accumulate the salt in their roots and not the foliage.
Other plants accumulate no Na at all.
https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=pss_notes
https://uknowledge.uky.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1032&context=pss_notes
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Thanks for that info. I do have lots of White Clover and some Birdsfoot.
callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
I've noticed that when cattle are on out pasture they will tend to consume more of anything else that's available. And when on fresh pasture they don't.....it's not exclusive to mineral.
faster horses
Well-known member
You can use mineral as a management tool. If they are hitting the mineral hard, it's usually time to move them. If cattle don't get enough dry matter they can digest, they will eat anything. Sagebrush, sticks, anything to satisfy that requirement. Not much attention was paid to dry matter for some time, but it does have a bearing on what cattle consume.
simme
Old Dumb Guy
I did not see this question until now. Been occupied with the ice, snow and wind storm that came through Sunday. I have never used any of the Conley bulls. But definitely agree that Lookout on a simmental cow adds some style and a very nice clean look based on what I have seen. I only have a very few cows mainly to entertain myself in retirement. So many bulls that I would like to try but limited by the number of cows.
Makes me think of this. That old simmental bull Meyer Ranch 734 from 1989 was not the most attractive. But crossed with an angus, there were lots of very attractive females. No telling the dollar valve of the offspring of that bull or of semen sales. Using angus in a breedup program has long been a thing. Then I attended a sale at Partisover Ranch in Georgia in 1996, I think. Lots of simangus females sired by 734 and others produced from Randy's angus herd. Beautiful females that outsold the purebred offering. $20 to 30 thousand range for some of those if I remember correctly. People seemed to be shocked that crossbred cattle would sell for those numbers. Seems like that was the beginning of the era of simangus as a destination as opposed to a breed-up path. At least, I saw it that way.
andybob
Well-known member
On the subject of using crossbred bulls, I used crossbreds in my original commercial herd, along with selected pedigree bulls from my registered herd, but why not see what the opinions are from one lifelong rancher and international geneticist, and anothe life long rancher and veterinarian - https://www.regenerativeag.info/food-for-thought/
Breeding Objective
A Breeding Objective is a statement or plan about how genetic progress will be achieved by the breeder. It calls for a long-term commitment on the part of the breeder, requiring several generations…
lukefahr-ranch.com
Two ranches; established with 200 good commercial cows similar in appearance and raise their own replacements. Ranch A. Buys papered bulls every time when needed with close attention paid to latest EPD's.
Ranch B. Selects bull from within from proven early calving, structurally sound and good temperament cows.
Which ranch after several years of sticking to their routine would have the most uniform herd, adapted to their environment and sell in the largest lots and in effect be more profitable?
Ranch B. Selects bull from within from proven early calving, structurally sound and good temperament cows.
Which ranch after several years of sticking to their routine would have the most uniform herd, adapted to their environment and sell in the largest lots and in effect be more profitable?
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
You left out the number one issue in the equation. Herd Management.
Good grass=good teeth = longevity.
This is pretty simple if you have the genetics. Grass in front of the cow bull behind.
The are pros and cons to running a closed herd.
I tend to think more cons.
pdubdo
Well-known member
Very interesting point of view. I align with her philosophically for sure.On the subject of using crossbred bulls, I used crossbreds in my original commercial herd, along with selected pedigree bulls from my registered herd, but why not see what the opinions are from one lifelong rancher and international geneticist, and anothe life long rancher and veterinarian - https://www.regenerativeag.info/food-for-thought/
Breeding Objective
A Breeding Objective is a statement or plan about how genetic progress will be achieved by the breeder. It calls for a long-term commitment on the part of the breeder, requiring several generations…
gusea305
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A trusted farm won't sell a crossbred bull for breeding. You might reevaluate that relationship. The most important animal in your herd is your bull.
You can breed to a good black angus bull. That would definitely out cross your herd. Any angus breed you could cross too. Murray Grey is what I run in my little herd right now and I am quite happy with him. They are mostly angus genetics with a little short horn back in the 20s or 30s.
A red angus is only homozygous, where as a black angus can be either homozygous or heterozygous.
faster horses
Well-known member
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread with this post. It is not my intent, only to provide some food for thought.
This is an interesting article, back from 1995. It's not about cross breeding but has a lot of good information in it. We bought bulls from Larry Leonhardt for several years and got some striking females from using his bulls. You didn't need to go look at the bulls either, because they looked exactly alike. He had different colored ear tags in the bulls which identified their history. He didn't have EPD's on them either. He only sold 2 year old bulls because he didn't want to compete with fed-up yearling bulls from other producers. Like the story says, everyone wanted to buy his cows, but no one wanted to buy his bulls. His bulls were cheap. I think we paid $1500 to $2000 for his 2-year old bulls. They sure left a mark in our herd. Larry has passed away now, but he knew more about Angus genetics than anyone in the USA and was well-respected. He told us "I'm just a dirty little beet farmer" but he was more than that. Much more. A genius.
This is an interesting article, back from 1995. It's not about cross breeding but has a lot of good information in it. We bought bulls from Larry Leonhardt for several years and got some striking females from using his bulls. You didn't need to go look at the bulls either, because they looked exactly alike. He had different colored ear tags in the bulls which identified their history. He didn't have EPD's on them either. He only sold 2 year old bulls because he didn't want to compete with fed-up yearling bulls from other producers. Like the story says, everyone wanted to buy his cows, but no one wanted to buy his bulls. His bulls were cheap. I think we paid $1500 to $2000 for his 2-year old bulls. They sure left a mark in our herd. Larry has passed away now, but he knew more about Angus genetics than anyone in the USA and was well-respected. He told us "I'm just a dirty little beet farmer" but he was more than that. Much more. A genius.
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