crossbred bull question

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Silver

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Silver, this is only first hand evidence that northern cattle are second rate, poor doing junk that the buyers reject.
I know, right? If we could only grow ‘em like they do down in the SE we’d have those buyers beating a path to our doors. Not to worry though, I’m shopping for Corriente bulls as we speak.
 

simme

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"They" say that a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are 4 calves born from Sept 22 to Oct 10th. Three bulls and one heifer. One 2 way crossbred calf. Two purebred calves. And one sired by a crossbred bull out of a purebred cow. Can you spot which is which? These pictures are not from the internet. All from one pasture in the SE US taken today. Just fescue calves. Which one is sired by a mongrel crossbred bull?
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simme

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You are very short of copper there.
Have seen that hair some years in the past, but normally not that much. Years ago, we sometimes used the Copasure boluses. Only seeing that color with the calves, not the cows this year. They are on what is considered a good mineral year round. But sometimes seems like mineral issues are more controversial than crossbred bulls.
What are your thoughts on the solution?
 

Rmc

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Quickest easiest solution I can think of is multimin90 can have results in hours where if you use loose minerals it would be weeks
 

Ferd

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Being a cross bred cattle guy I thought that I knew how genetics work. Cross a Hereford and an angus you get offspring 50% each. That’s the only way that it can work. Cross the offspring with Charolais you get 50% Charolais, 25% angus, 25% Hereford, right? Not exactly. I discovered this from 23andMe. My daughter is 50% me. My son in law is 0% me. My grandson is 28.8% me. Shocked the heck out of me. Picture the marbles in the bucket differently. To make our daughter, my wife and I each put in 50% of her DNA, 50 marbles each. God mixed those 100 marbles to make our daughter. When our grandson was conceived God reached in and pulled out 50 of our daughter’s marbles, but He didn’t count out 25 of mine and 25 of my wife’s. He just pulled out 50. 28.8 of mine, 21.2 of my wife’s.
I am assuming that is why crossbred cattle have some variety. I still have 3 longhorns that will be gone after this calving season. One is red with spots mostly on her topline. Bred to purebred black angus she has had one pure black calf, one white with black spots, the rest black with white spots. God pulled out different marbles from Mom.
 

Rmc

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Being a cross bred cattle guy I thought that I knew how genetics work. Cross a Hereford and an angus you get offspring 50% each. That’s the only way that it can work. Cross the offspring with Charolais you get 50% Charolais, 25% angus, 25% Hereford, right? Not exactly. I discovered this from 23andMe. My daughter is 50% me. My son in law is 0% me. My grandson is 28.8% me. Shocked the heck out of me. Picture the marbles in the bucket differently. To make our daughter, my wife and I each put in 50% of her DNA, 50 marbles each. God mixed those 100 marbles to make our daughter. When our grandson was conceived God reached in and pulled out 50 of our daughter’s marbles, but He didn’t count out 25 of mine and 25 of my wife’s. He just pulled out 50. 28.8 of mine, 21.2 of my wife’s.
Yep it’s animals called prepotency or the ability to pass on traits at a higher them statistical analysis says . It is rare for a single grandparent to contribute 25% of the genetics. In some documented cases it has been 0%
Genes don’t sort independently they usually sort in groups or bunches some tend to be passed on more then others
 

Rmc

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If you really want to get into some weird genetics do some reading on chimera where one twin is absorbed by the other twin yet both sets of dna survive in the same individual
Here is a article about a dad who is more like a uncle genetically to his own child.
 
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simme

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I am assuming that is why crossbred cattle have some variety. I still have 3 longhorns that will be gone after this calving season. One is red with spots mostly on her topline. Bred to purebred black angus she has had one pure black calf, one white with black spots, the rest black with white spots. God pulled out different marbles from Mom.
May be two different approaches and lines of thought on this crossbred bull subject. I agree that breeds that are very different allow more opportunity for heterosis. The same can be said within a breed. In the US, angus is the big breed with lots of choices on bulls. You can look at the genetics and select a mating that goes a ways back in the gene pool without common ancestors. Within a breed, that is referred to as an outcross. The genetic principle is the same with more heterosis with diversity. And there is the possibility of more variation with more diversity.
My original post in this thread related to using a crossbred bull and that some people say that you should not due to inconsistent results. I guess it depends on the bull and the mating. If there is a lot of diversity in the mating like white and red spotted low input cattle bred to thick black cattle, you would expect some inconsistency and variation. The crossbred simangusbull that I use is similar in type and kind and appearance to the simmental cows. With a little angus that might help with a few things. Best I remember, Jim Leachman that I mentioned earlier referred to his Stabilizers as "look-a-likes". Bulls with some genetic diversity that looked alike, but hopefully performed better in terms of growth, efficiency, grade, tenderness and such economically important traits. Just some explanation of my thinking. I could be wrong, of course.

Said with a little humor - one should not be concerned about percent of their genetics in children or grandchildren if the number is somewhat close to 50 or 25. If it is zero, there is too much diversity.
 

Rmc

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May be two different approaches and lines of thought on this crossbred bull subject. I agree that breeds that are very different allow more opportunity for heterosis. The same can be said within a breed. In the US, angus is the big breed with lots of choices on bulls. You can look at the genetics and select a mating that goes a ways back in the gene pool without common ancestors. Within a breed, that is referred to as an outcross. The genetic principle is the same with more heterosis with diversity. And there is the possibility of more variation with more diversity.


Said with a little humor - one should not be concerned about percent of their genetics in children or grandchildren if the number is somewhat close to 50 or 25. If it is zero, there is too much diversity.
That is exactly why the line 1 Hereford was created. If you line breed for 80 plus years when you out cross within the same breed you should definitely get some hybrid vigor.
But very few in any breed are line breeding now and it is all about crossing every single line within the breed all in one animal.
I wish breed assiations would print inbred coefficients of every animal and use cross calculators to give a degree of relatedness of potential matings this would be way people could have better outcomes weather in a line breeding or out cross mating.
Human genetics is a multi billion dollar business do you know of a get Eric test that you can send tests to to find out genetically what percentage of each parent your calf is . But we can use human genetic tests and apply what is learned from them to our cattle
 

alacowman1

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Got no problem using proven crosses.but I'm not taking a chance on something questionable.. I'll leave that to the deeper pockets..who ain't afraid to gamble..too long a walk back ,on bad decisions in the cattle business
 

Nkline

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“The same can be said within a breed. In the US, angus is the big breed with lots of choices on bulls. You can look at the genetics and select a mating that goes a ways back in the gene pool without common ancestors.”

If you know angus pedigrees well enough you can identify some major bottleneck events. AI has greatly reduced the diversity in the angus breed. It is possible to not make purebred angus cattle overly inbred, but you may have to look outside of the semen catalogs.
 

simme

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Brute 23

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"They" say that a picture is worth a thousand words. Here are 4 calves born from Sept 22 to Oct 10th. Three bulls and one heifer. One 2 way crossbred calf. Two purebred calves. And one sired by a crossbred bull out of a purebred cow. Can you spot which is which? These pictures are not from the internet. All from one pasture in the SE US taken today. Just fescue calves. Which one is sired by a mongrel crossbred bull?
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Not a fan of 2nd from the top
 

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