crossbred bull question

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@Rmc - absolutely correct.
Maximum hybrid vigor is NOT Angus x Hereford - it is British crossed with Continental.
Researchers recommend using a PB bull on a crossbred cow, because you get better performance from the crossbred COW - better fertility, better milking, better health, longevity, better forager, etc. A 3-way cross is the maximum you want to use. PB cow x 1/2 1/2 bull. or 1/2 1/2 cow x with a PB bull.
A Simmental bull will give you great momma replacements and great feedlot cattle.

 

[Warren Allison]

Brangus is a composite of angus and Brahma
That has been selectively breed for more and more angus genes
Registration means absolutely nothing I could form a breed registry today for a new breed called "mutts" and issue registration papers . Registered or papered animals don't automatically become a better breeding tool just because some one issued a piece of paper.

Again, you could not be more wrong. Breeders in the 1930's first started experimenting with Brahma and Angus crosses, and the IBBA registry was formed about 1950. Registered Brangus must be of 3/8 Brahman and 5/8 Black Angus parentage, solid black and polled. Both sire and dam must be recorded with the International Brangus Breeders Association.
Foundation Black Angus and Brahman cattle must be registered in their respective breed association prior to being enrolled with the IBBA. Intermediate crosses necessary to reach the 3/8 - 5/8 percentage are certified by the IBBA, but are not registered as Brangus. There are no registered Brangus cattle that have been selectively breed for more and more angus genes. You may be confused with UltraBlacks, developed from breeding registered Brangus and registered Angus together. This registry is kept by the IBBA. The 1/2 registered Brangus/1/2 registered Angus can be bred to a registered Angus, or a registered Brangus, and the 75%/25% offspring can be registered Ultrablack. So can a 87.5%/12.5% cross. Totally different set of books than the Brangus registry.

 

[simme]

I know a nice interracial couple. One African American and one Caucasian. They have four children. Two dark skin tone with AA features. Two pale white with caucasian features. Look very different, but they love them all. They explained to me that this is the way genetics work in people. All their interracial friends' have children the same way, they said.
Obviously, I made that up. It don't work that way at all. Not in people or in cows.
I tried to do the marble thing, but found that I had lost my marbles.
My tongue is bleeding again. Stuck in my cheek and about to bite it off.

 

[Warren Allison]

@Rmc - absolutely correct.
Maximum hybrid vigor is NOT Angus x Hereford - it is British crossed with Continental.
Researchers recommend using a PB bull on a crossbred cow, because you get better performance from the crossbred COW - better fertility, better milking, better health, longevity, better forager, etc. A 3-way cross is the maximum you want to use. PB cow x 1/2 1/2 bull. or 1/2 1/2 cow x with a PB bull.
A Simmental bull will give you great momma replacements and great feedlot cattle.

Absolutely incorrect, Jeanne. This whole video is well worth watching, but at about 11"30, you see that there is very little genetic diversity amongst the Continental breeds, and most of them now carry so much Angus DNA, that there is very little heteraosis affect crossing continental with Angus any more, May as well cross angus with angus. About 13 minutes in, it shows that amongst all bos taurus breeds, the hereford and angus share virtually no DNA, which is why that cross gives you the maximum heterosis.

 

[Warren Allison]

I know a nice interracial couple. One African American and one Caucasian. They have four children. Two dark skin tone with AA features. Two pale white with caucasian features. Look very different, but they love them all. They explained to me that this is the way genetics work in people. All their interracial friends' have children the same way, they said.
Obviously, I made that up. It don't work that way at all. Not in people or in cows.
I tried to do the marble thing, but found that I had lost my marbles.
My tongue is bleeding again. Stuck in my cheek and about to bite it off.

What an idiot. But, if the mixed race child breeds with a Negro, the babies could look all Negro, or like a mixed race. If it breeds with a Caucasian, then the babies could look all white or like a mixed race baby. If a mixed race breeds with a mixed race, the babies could appear 100% Negro, 100% Caucasian, or look like their parents.

 

[Warren Allison]

Best cross of Bos indicus cattle to produce maximum heteratosis, is Angus x Herford.

I mean Bos taurus cattle

 

[Rmc]

Absolutely incorrect, Jeanne. This whole video is well worth watching, but at about 11"30, you see that there is very little genetic diversity amongst the Continental breeds, and most of them now carry so much Angus DNA, that there is very little heteraosis affect crossing continental with Angus any more, May as well cross angus with angus. About 13 minutes in, it shows that amongst all bos taurus breeds, the hereford and angus share virtually no DNA, which is why that cross gives you the maximum heterosis.

Did you even watch the entire video.
It points out what you are arguing against.
1most black hided composites have very little heterosis when bred back to angus.
2. The best cross to achieve maximum heterosis is a 3 way cross. In the video he says a f1 female and a terminal sire all separate breeds. (If you doubt this actually start watching at 21:38)
3. If you have hybrid vigor you loose consistency (24:00 in your video)

 

[MurraysMutts]

I know a nice interracial couple. One African American and one Caucasian. They have four children. Two dark skin tone with AA features. Two pale white with caucasian features. Look very different, but they love them all. They explained to me that this is the way genetics work in people. All their interracial friends' have children the same way, they said.
Obviously, I made that up. It don't work that way at all. Not in people or in cows.
I tried to do the marble thing, but found that I had lost my marbles.
My tongue is bleeding again. Stuck in my cheek and about to bite it off.

But what if the interracial couple was NOT nice? Would that change the outcome?

 

[Warren Allison]

Did you even watch the entire video.
It points out what you are arguing against.
1most black hided composites have very little heterosis when bred back to angus.

This is EXACTLY what I said! LOL!!! Can you read?

2. The best cross to achieve maximum heterosis is a 3 way cross. In the video he says a f1 female and a terminal sire all separate breeds. (If you doubt this actually start watching at 21:38)

The 2nd best is the 3 way cross. The most heterosis comes from the 1st pb x pb. Like Angus and Hereford for black baldies. If you breed these to a 3rd breed, like Brahma, you get some heteratosis. but not as much as the 1st 2-way cross After that, there is very little.

3. If you have hybrid vigor you loose consistency (24:00 in your video)

No, he said that using cross bred heifers as replacements could result in inconsistencies in hide color, horned or polled, size etc. He is talking about the box of crayons approach that some people use in replacement heifers, and hell, some on here use for bulls! Purebred polled Herefords crossed with pb homozygous-for-black Angus, will consistently give you polled black baldies. If the OP has purebred red Angus, and uses a purebred polled Hereford bull, then he will consistently get polled red baldy calves, which will out-=perform pure RA or poure Herefords either one.

 

[simme]

But what if the interracial couple was NOT nice? Would that change the outcome?

Genetics would be the same, but kids would probably be mean. Depending on docility EPD of course.
Best I remember, they were from Oklahoma - real nice people. Had a few bucket calves too. Could not tell what the genetics were on the calves, but they were sweethearts.

 

[alacowman1]

Usually here, it's a skinny African American male..mated to a portly tattooed white female..and the results are several welfare recipients .

 

[Hoser]

Calves from mostly crossbred bulls out of all cross bred cows. Probably average about 210 days of age.

Nice group! What breeds are the bulls?

 

[Rmc]

F1 in his example is a Hereford/angus female crossed with a charolais bull.
So angus/herford /charolias = 3 different breeds . 1+1+1 = 3 way cross
Very similar to a red angus dam crossed to a charolias /highland cross bull = a 3 way cross

 

[Rmc]

This is EXACTLY what I said! LOL!!! Can you read?

The 2nd best is the 3 way cross. The most heterosis comes from the 1st pb x pb. Like Angus and Hereford for black baldies. If you breed these to a 3rd breed, like Brahma, you get some heteratosis. but not as much as the 1st 2-way cross After that, there is very little.

The video says the best cross to achieve maximum heterosis is a three way cross.
Yet you say a two way cross is best .
Can't have it both ways the video you posted says exactly opposite of your posted opinions .
And you ask me if I can read?

 

[Rmc]

Best cross of Bos indicus cattle to produce maximum heteratopsis, is Angus x Herford.

Not what the video you posted says it says you need a 3 way cross to reach maximum heterosis

 

[Ky hills]

It's been a long time but I remember back in school in an ag class, that if you breed an F-1 BWF to F-1 BWF you end up with a percentage that are solid colored either red or black.
I know from my own herd, that when you breed F-1 Charolais/Angus back to an Angus bull, you end up with some black calves, and some a range of smoke colors, some fairly dark and others lighter.
As for the unnecessary references to people, that's not an accurate portrayal. Then as to welfare not all children from those backgrounds are on welfare, and I know plenty of white folks that are on welfare.

 

[Silver]

Nice group! What breeds are the bulls?

Thank you. The bulls are primarily Simmental with a little Angus mixed in. Some full blood Simmies.

 

[Warren Allison]

View attachment 12099
F1 in his example is a Hereford/angus female crossed with a charolais bull.
So angus/herford /charolias = 3 different breeds . 1+1+1 = 3 way cross
Very similar to a red angus dam crossed to a charolias cross bull = a 3 way cross

No F1 is the Angus Hereford 2 way cross. And this gives 100% maximum heterosis. Cant be but 2 breeds in an F1.

 

[Warren Allison]

Not what the video you posted says it says you need a 3 way cross to reach maximum heterosis

2 way is the max. Add third breed and you get some heterosis. after that, it is nearly gone.

 

[MurraysMutts]

portly