crossbred bull question

[Ky hills]

A trusted farm won't sell a crossbred bull for breeding. You might reevaluate that relationship. The most important animal in your herd is your bull.

While I agree that the particular cross of Charolais x Highland for a bull is questionable and probably not accomplishing much, I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to say a farm that sells crossbred bulls is not to be trusted.
Years ago, a good friend that was a long time well respected Charolais breeder, AI bred a few of his cows to Limousin and Saler bulls when they first came on the scene. If I remember correctly he said that some customers had asked him about doing that. He was upfront about saying what they were and wouldn't try to embellish anything.
A lot of Sim Angus, Balancers, and Limflex bulls are so led these days.

 

[gusea305]

While I agree that the particular cross of Charolais x Highland for a bull is questionable and probably not accomplishing much, I wouldn't necessarily go as far as to say a farm that sells crossbred bulls is not to be trusted.
Years ago, a good friend that was a long time well respected Charolais breeder, AI bred a few of his cows to Limousin and Saler bulls when they first came on the scene. If I remember correctly he said that some customers had asked him about doing that. He was upfront about saying what they were and wouldn't try to embellish anything.
A lot of Sim Angus, Balancers, and Limflex bulls are so led these days.

I disagree that it probably won't accomplish much. I say it will. It is a quick way to ruin a herd. I have seen neighbors do it and screw up their herds for many generations.

There is a huge difference between keeping cross bred heifers and using a crossbreed bull.

Granted I am cross breeding but I would never use a bull out of these breeding, and we cull heavy. I have only kept one crossbred heifer. I will probably keep a couple more as the need to replace presents it's self.

However there has been a lot of work put into breeding up the cattle you are talking about. I mean look at what the king ranch has done over decades of selective breeding. The neighbor who put a Charley on a highlander didn't and I stand by my statement of reevaluating that relationship.

I would say the same about a neighbor who just puts an angus on Betsy the simm without doing the actual research and work that goes into bettering a breed.

 

[simme]

I disagree that it probably won't accomplish much. I say it will. It is a quick way to ruin a herd. I have seen neighbors do it and screw up their herds for many generations.

There is a huge difference between keeping cross bred heifers and using a crossbreed bull.

Granted I am cross breeding but I would never use a bull out of these breeding, and we cull heavy. I have only kept one crossbred heifer. I will probably keep a couple more as the need to replace presents it's self.

However there has been a lot of work put into breeding up the cattle you are talking about. I mean look at what the king ranch has done over decades of selective breeding. The neighbor who put a Charley on a highlander didn't and I stand by my statement of reevaluating that relationship.

I would say the same about a neighbor who just puts an angus on Betsy the simm without doing the actual research and work that goes into bettering a breed.

Look at this operation. Read the "about us" section. They run about 800 cows, mostly crossbred simangus with some simmental. Mostly crossbred simangus bulls along with some simmental. Been doing this for many years and sell a few hundred bulls and heifers in their annual sale. Their bulls average $5000 to $6000 and are well accepted.

All the data I have seen indicates that a crossbred cow is more fertile, stays in the herd longer, weans a heavier calf and has better health. Are those benefits limited only to females? I wonder why this operation has been able to achieve success with crossbred cows and bulls for so long.

About Us | Gibbs Farms

 

[gusea305]

I admitted that. But these guys are not just tossing semen around. They have the numbers. They have the science. And when you don't who knows what a crossbreed bull will throw. You can end up in a place where you have no idea what phenotypes will present. There is no consistency. You can't tell me for a minute that Charley/Highlander cross bull is going to improve red angus with any kind of certainty or consistency. How many generations do the folks in this operation have? If they are getting that kind of money and producing such good bulls they know what they are doing. This guy with small red angus herd will not benefit in the slightest from the bull he is looking at.

Edit: yup their about page explains their position and why they are successful. No one will find that history in this case.

 

[simme]

I admitted that. But these guys are not just tossing semen around. They have the numbers. They have the science. And when you don't who knows what a crossbreed bull will throw. You can end up in a place where you have no idea what phenotypes will present. There is no consistency. You can't tell me for a minute that Charley/Highlander cross bull is going to improve red angus with any kind of certainty or consistency. How many generations do the folks in this operation have? If they are getting that kind of money and producing such good bulls they know what they are doing. This guy with small red angus herd will not benefit in the slightest from the bull he is looking at.

I think we are in agreement. The topics of not just tossing semen around and having a plan and knowing what you are doing probably apply to cattle breeding in general- whether purebred or crossbred bulls. I think it is possible to make mistakes with either and have success with either. Several people have stated that crossbred bulls are no good. I am just trying to show some specific evidence of alternate facts.

 

[gusea305]

I agree we are talking about the same thing. It is just that what this gentleman is looking at is not it. I think you would agree that a bull needs to be the best animal on the ranch as that is where half the genetic material is coming from.

Edit: thank you I will change my argument to reflect your and KYs points, and not speak in such generalities.

 

[Rmc]

I disagree 100 percent that the bull needs to be the best animal on the ranch. Thousands of studies have proven the best way to produce the most hybrid vigor is a three way cross. If you have some pure bred cows and want the best terminal cross offspring your best bet would be to use a crossbred bull.
Don't care what the bulls phenotype is . He is a breeding animal . All one should care about is what his offspring look like.
Far to many people have forgotten this and use the latest and greatest bull of the month promoted by the semen companies based on phenotype. Very often these flavor of the weeks are the results of a outcross mating and never produce the same quality of offspring as he is.
You a far better off using a line bred bull with the genotype that will help your herd . Rather then the latest flavor of the month bull whose is the result of a outcross and his phenotype is the result of unrealistic feeding program that would never be financially realistic in a real world program that 99 percent of breeders use.

 

[gusea305]

I disagree 100 percent that the bull needs to be the best animal on the ranch. Thousands of studies have proven the best way to produce the most hybrid vigor is a three way cross. If you have some pure bred cows and want the best terminal cross offspring your best bet would be to use a crossbred bull.
Don't care what the bulls phenotype is . He is a breeding animal . All one should care about is what his offspring look like.
Far to many people have forgotten this and use the latest and greatest bull of the month promoted by the semen companies based on phenotype. Very often these flavor of the weeks are the results of a outcross mating and never produce the same quality of offspring as he is.
You a far better off using a line bred bull with the genotype that will help your herd . Rather then the latest flavor of the month bull whose is the result of a outcross and his phenotype is the result of unrealistic feeding program that would never be financially realistic in a real world program that 99 percent of breeders use.

I do not know anyone who selects solely on what the animal looks like, and I certainly want more leeway than a terminal sire provides. What good is a perfect looking steer that is tough and has no marbling. Or a replacement with little milk production and bad feet at 4 yrs old? I certainly do not select a flavor of the week sire. Line bred, definitely. That is how you end up with consistency, but line breeding isn't exclusive to cross breeds. Half of a herds genetic material comes from the bull. Say you have 10 cows getting covered by one bull each cow is providing 5% of the herds genetic material. If the bull is not the all around best animal on the ranch then you are degrading the herd.

I would like to read some if these studies you are talking about. Could you link a couple so I can edify myself.

 

[Rmc]

I would like to read some if these studies you are talking about. Could you link a couple so I can edify myself.

I have posted articles in this thread as have others that are related to studies
Their is also a video someone posted to this thread .

 

[Rmc]

I certainly want more leeway than a terminal sire provides.

Just because you don't want to use a terminal cross bull. Doesn't mean it's wrong for everyone else to use one. Best way to put on most pounds and most hybrid vigor is to use a three way cross.
I know many cattle producers who switch back and forth from using a terminal cross bull and selling 100%of the calf crop to using a maternal bull to keep replacement heifers.
Some also believe they can buy their replacements easier and cheaper then they can produce them.

 

[gusea305]

I have posted articles in this thread as have others that are related to studies
Their is also a video someone posted to this thread .

Thanks. Can I ask what kind of operation you are running? I am noticing that different operation need different inputs. Fior instance I raise my beef from conception to consumption so I need a very consistent offspring. It doesn't seem that is the case for folks not direct marketing their animals.

 

[Rmc]

What good is a perfect looking steer that is tough and has no marbling. Or a replacement with little milk production and bad feet at 4 yrs old?

That perfect looking steer is going to be larger in size and put more $ in the bank then a similar steer from a non three way cross.
Don't care if a heifer from a terminal bull has little milk production potential or the chance to get bad feet at the age of 4 . Neither of those matter when you are producing a terminal cross as she is not intended to be used for breeding .

 

[gusea305]

Just because you don't want to use a terminal cross bull. Doesn't mean it's wrong for everyone else to use one. Best way to put on most pounds and most hybrid vigor is to use a three way cross.
I know many cattle producers who switch back and forth from using a terminal cross bull and selling 100%of the calf crop to using a maternal bull to keep replacement heifers.
Some also believe they can buy their replacements easier and cheaper then they can produce them.

I do use 3 breeds and line breeding in my program, but only good quality pure bred bulls. I use red angus, black angus, and murray grey. All males are terminal and we are very picky when it comes to replacements. It works for me in my situation and I would strongly recommend it to anyone putting food directly on someone's plate.

In this person's situation there is no doubt in my mind that he will really screw up what is going into his and his customers freezer with the bull he is looking at.

 

[gusea305]

Yea, this breaks down to ideology and type of program. I rarely go to the sale barn. But I am also grossing around 4 times what I would by selling it as a finished product by th lb. So basically more lbs is good but it is not all I look for. I am not sacrificing quality on my or my customers tables.

 

[Rmc]

I do use 3 breeds and line breeding in my program, but only good quality pure bred bulls. I use red angus, black angus, and murray grey. All males are terminal and we are very picky when it comes to replacements. It works for me in my situation and I would strongly recommend it to anyone putting food directly on someone's plate.

In this person's situation there is no doubt in my mind that he will really screw up what is going into his and his customers freezer with the bull he is looking at.

Red angus and black angus are basically the same genetically . The red angus registry only came about because the red recessive gene that appeared in black angus was considered reject animals and couldn't be registered as black angus because of being homozygous for the recessive red gene. Murray grey have angus genetics in their background.so this three way cross isn't going to achieve any where near maximum hybrid vigor as they are closely related genetically.

 

[Rmc]

In this person's situation there is no doubt in my mind that he will really screw up what is going into his and his customers freezer with the bull he is looking at.

And you have how much experience with the type of cross suggested?
You have how much knowledge of the genetics of the Scottish highlander breed? Let alone personal experience?
Have you ever tested Scottish highlander beef or crosses with it in ?
Yet you know it is going to screw up what is going into his customers freezer?

 

[gusea305]

And you have how much experience with the type of cross suggested?
You have how much knowledge of the genetics of the Scottish highlander breed? Let alone personal experience?
Have you ever tested Scottish highlander beef or crosses with it in ?
Yet you know it is going to screw up what is going into his customers freezer?

yes I do

 

[gusea305]

Red angus and black angus are basically the same genetically . The red angus registry only came about because the red recessive gene that appeared in black angus was considered reject animals and couldn't be registered as black angus because of being homozygous for the recessive red gene. Murray grey have angus genetics in their background.so this three way cross isn't going to achieve any where near maximum hybrid vigor as they are closely related genetically.

My animals do just fine. I know everything you just said. I do get hybrid vigor but not like what you are looking for. As I said? I need more than just size for what i do. I have a reputation of growing really good beef. I would like to keep it. I need animals that can hold up to the tough conditions of where I live, provide the best for my family, and the families of my customers that know they can never find the quality of my meat in a store.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

The most hybred vigor is with a 2-way cross COW and a PB bull.

 

[gusea305]

The most hybred vigor is with a 2-way cross COW and a PB bull.

Thank you for offering an example of the need for a pure bred bull.