Church

[alacattleman]

Seens how there are 11 pages on church, and it is Sunday, any one going to church?

We are, and it is our Sunday School Picnic as well.
Have a good Father's Day all

RR

TY for the Father's day greeting RRC.

I haven't been to church in a long time and didn't go as the result of 11 pages on church. Speaking from your personal perspective, is there more sin in church in one day (or how many days you go per week) than outside of church the remaining days of the week?

you'r saying you didnt go to church because, of this thread you started :?:

 

[HerefordSire]

I should have been more clear. Reading the 11 pages of text did not make me change my stance on going to church.

 

[alacattleman]

nor will it,i doubt 11 more would make a dent

 

[larryshoat]

Seens how there are 11 pages on church, and it is Sunday, any one going to church?

We are, and it is our Sunday School Picnic as well.
Have a good Father's Day all

RR

TY for the Father's day greeting RRC.

I haven't been to church in a long time and didn't go as the result of 11 pages on church. Speaking from your personal perspective, is there more sin in church in one day (or how many days you go per week) than outside of church the remaining days of the week?


Edit:
Sin is a term used mainly in a religious context to describe an act that violates a moral rule, or the state of having committed such a violation. Commonly, the moral code of conduct is decreed by a divine entity, i.e. Divine law.

Sin is often used to mean an action that is prohibited or considered wrong; in some religions (notably some sects of Christianity), sin can refer to a state of mind rather than a specific action. Colloquially, any thought, word, or act considered immoral, shameful, harmful, or alienating might be termed "sinful".

Common ideas surrounding sin in various religions include:

Punishment for sins, from other people, from God either in life or in afterlife, or from the Universe in general.
The question of whether an act must be intentional to be sinful.
The idea that one's conscience should produce guilt for a conscious act of sin.
A scheme for determining the seriousness of the sin.
Repentance from (expressing regret for and determining not to commit) sin, and atonement (repayment) for past deeds.
The possibility of forgiveness of sins, often through communication with a deity or intermediary; in Christianity often referred to as salvation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin

Let me get this straight, you have not gone to Church for a long time, but last Sunday you didn't go because of the 11 page Church thread. In other words you now have a new reason for not going to Church. Does it seem to work better than the old reason?

Larry

 

[HerefordSire]

From the same Wiki link..

Jewish views of sin

Judaism regards the violation of any of the divine commandments to be a sin. Judaism teaches that sin is an act, and not a state of being.


Christian views of sin

In Western Christianity, sin is viewed as a legal infraction or contract violation, and so salvation tends to be viewed in legal terms, similar to Jewish law. In Eastern Christianity, sin is viewed in terms of its effects on relationships, both among people and between people and God. The Bible portrays sin as not following God's moral guidance, based on the account of Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis. Sin is to know God's will, but willfully choose to ignore it.

Islamic views of sin

Islam sees sin (dhanb, thanb ذنب) as anything that goes against the will of Allah (God). Islam teaches that sin is an act and not a state of being. The Qur'an teaches that "the (human) soul is certainly prone to evil, unless the Lord does bestow His Mercy" and that even the prophets do not absolve themselves of the blame (Qur'an [Qur'an 12:53]).


Bahá'í views of sin

In the Bahá'í Faith, humans are considered to be naturally good (perfect), fundamentally spiritual beings. Human beings were created because of God's immeasurable love for us. However, the Bahá'í teachings compare the human heart to a mirror, which, if turned away from the light of the sun (i.e. God), is incapable of receiving God's love.


Hindu views of sin

In Hinduism, although the term sin (pāpa in Sanskrit) is often used to describe actions that create negative karma by violating moral and ethical codes it is different from other religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam in the sense that sin is against the will of God.


Buddhist views of sin

Buddhism does not recognize the idea behind sin because in Buddhism, instead, there is a "Cause-Effect Theory", known as Karma, or action-reaction.


Atheist views of sin

Atheism often draws a distinction between sin and an ethical code of conduct. Sin is a term generally associated with a theological belief system (which is antithetical to atheism), and is separate from the concept of "right or wrong." Atheists typically do not use the term "sinful" to refer to actions that violate their particular moral system (particularly if "sinful" is taken to mean "acting against the wishes or commands of a deity"), preferring terms such as "wrong" or "unethical," which do not carry religious connotations. Most atheists hold that moral codes derive from societal mores or innate human characteristics, rather than religious authority. Atheists may still adhere to a strong ethical code, even if they do not use the concept of sin.

"Atheism" is as vague a category as "theism", however: just as there is no universal doctrine of "theism" (apart from the basic assertion that some divine entity or entities exist), there is no universal doctrine of "atheism," and no unified atheistic view on the concept of sin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin

 

[alacattleman]

do you really care how those other "IDOL WORSHIPPERS" view sin

 

[1982vett]

The "Church" is their for you. It is up to you to make the choice to partake or not. No one can or will make that choice for you, it is yours to make for the same reasons God gave Adam and Eve "a choice".

 

[BeefmasterB]

do you really care how those other "IDOL WORSHIPPERS" view sin

With all due respect, have you ever priced out stained glass windows, pretty robes, statues etc and all of the other edifices of modern day "churches"?

"To demonstrate my view that churches are not essential to divine deliverance, let us assume a Christian proclaimer journeys into the jungles of Brazil and shares Jesus with the inhabitants. He preaches neither church nor denomination, but tells them simply the story of Jesus and nothing more, as evangelist Philip told the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-39 almost 2,000 years ago.
We will suppose that 500 of the inhabitants accept the Good News about Jesus the Messiah, welcome it, redirect their lives and, as per Jesus' command, are immersed in water—as was the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-39. They are born anew, saved, redeemed, delivered, and now begin their new life.

Tell me, of which church or denomination are they members? Are they Baptists? Are they Methodists? Are they Lutherans? Are they Evangelicals or Roman Catholics? Are they aligned with the a cappella Church of Christ? Are they of the Church of God Sect? How could they be members of any of these religious parties when they are totally unaware of their existence?

If the Lord added them to whatever they needed to be members or citizens of the moment they experienced the new birth, and He did, why join any church? They are already citizens of God's heavenly colony. They may now meet corporately and praise God collectively, thus enjoying all spiritual benefits derived from their acceptance of Jesus. What more do they need? If God added them to His family, and He did, why should they join any of the numerous churches, none of which are remotely referred to in the scriptures? The Lord does the adding, not man (Acts 2:47).

If these new believers can reach God's gloryland without joining any church or "placing their membership" with some denomination or hanging some kind of partisan sign over the entrance to their meeting places (their homes or in the open jungle), they can be saved without adopting "mad church disease." This is why I tell those who inquire about my "religion" or church affiliation, "I don't have a modern-day religion, and I don't have a church. I have a relationship with a Man called Jesus." If our relationship with Him is strong and ongoing, everything will fall into place. But if we do not have that kind of relationship, everything will fall apart." - Buff Scott

 

[alacattleman]

do you really care how those other "IDOL WORSHIPPERS" view sin

With all due respect, have you ever priced out stained glass windows, pretty robes, statues etc and all of the other edifices of modern day "churches"?
"To demonstrate my view that churches are not essential to divine deliverance, let us assume a Christian proclaimer journeys into the jungles of Brazil and shares Jesus with the inhabitants. He preaches neither church nor denomination, but tells them simply the story of Jesus and nothing more, as evangelist Philip told the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-39 almost 2,000 years ago.
We will suppose that 500 of the inhabitants accept the Good News about Jesus the Messiah, welcome it, redirect their lives and, as per Jesus' command, are immersed in water—as was the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-39. They are born anew, saved, redeemed, delivered, and now begin their new life.

Tell me, of which church or denomination are they members? Are they Baptists? Are they Methodists? Are they Lutherans? Are they Evangelicals or Roman Catholics? Are they aligned with the a cappella Church of Christ? Are they of the Church of God Sect? How could they be members of any of these religious parties when they are totally unaware of their existence?

If the Lord added them to whatever they needed to be members or citizens of the moment they experienced the new birth, and He did, why join any church? They are already citizens of God's heavenly colony. They may now meet corporately and praise God collectively, thus enjoying all spiritual benefits derived from their acceptance of Jesus. What more do they need? If God added them to His family, and He did, why should they join any of the numerous churches, none of which are remotely referred to in the scriptures? The Lord does the adding, not man (Acts 2:47).

If these new believers can reach God's gloryland without joining any church or "placing their membership" with some denomination or hanging some kind of partisan sign over the entrance to their meeting places (their homes or in the open jungle), they can be saved without adopting "mad church disease." This is why I tell those who inquire about my "religion" or church affiliation, "I don't have a modern-day religion, and I don't have a church. I have a relationship with a Man called Jesus." If our relationship with Him is strong and ongoing, everything will fall into place. But if we do not have that kind of relationship, everything will fall apart." - Buff Scott

well being brought up poor white pentecostal, most of our churchs had a front door and some windows and sometimes an air conditioner , you were there for only one purpose that was too worship the LORD, it sure wasnt comfort are too be seen sweating like a hog

 

[BeefmasterB]

well being brought up poor white pentecostal, most of our churchs had a front door and some windows and sometimes an air conditioner , you were there for only one purpose that was too worship the LORD, it sure wasnt comfort are too be seen sweating like a hog

I read you loud and clear! I suspect you learned a lot more in that facility than one might learn in one that has helicopters that fly the preacher in for the movie cameras.

 

[larryshoat]

The "Church" is their for you. It is up to you to make the choice to partake or not. No one can or will make that choice for you, it is yours to make for the same reasons God gave Adam and Eve "a choice".[/quote]

Good post. Good point.

Larry

 

[alacattleman]

well being brought up poor white pentecostal, most of our churchs had a front door and some windows and sometimes an air conditioner , you were there for only one purpose that was too worship the LORD, it sure wasnt comfort are too be seen sweating like a hog

I read you loud and clear! I suspect you learned a lot more in that facility than one might learn in one that has helicopters that fly the preacher in for the movie cameras.

we were at a cousins funeral awhile back,alot of kin we havent seen in a few years,, you would have thought it was a revival,, afterward my son said you sure got some religous kinfolks" BY THAT HE MEANT GOD FEARING, i tell you this those older bunch beliefs could'nt be shaken.

 

[HerefordSire]

Some thoughts...

First of all I am not a "student" of the Bible. Was exposed to it as a child in my Southern Baptist upbringing; however, changed after I left home...other denomination.

I am similar except I was forced to learn many aspects of religion, including the bible, for many years.

That aside, some "academic" thoughts:

Noah's Ark: According to mathmeticians and engineers measurements, there is no way an ark that small could ever hold 2 of each species on Earth.

It is possible the Ark could have held two species of every animal in existance at the time in quesiton. It is possible, that either evolution from that point on or creation resulted in other species. Did you happen to get the date of the flood? Was it 300,000 years ago or 4,000 years ago? Regardless, it could be the meaning behind the words, like a parable, that the author was after.

Burning Bush: Perhaps a parable? Any number bushes or shrubs could catch fire easily (flammable sap) if struck by lightening.

Ever heard of a human catching on fire spontaneously as in spontaneous combustion?

Arc of The Covenant: No idea, no comment.

You can read the information I posted regarding the 24 chromosomes which could mean the human blood did not have a human father.

Sodom & Gomorra: Could happen in any time period or culture (that is, "sinful ways of the people that resulted in their downfall").

Was is the different between Sodom and Gommorra and us?

Adam & Eve: Actual only 2 people created (or) a concept that the earth needed a male and female to propagate (and, if only 2 people started, then there had to be a lot of incest and line breeding in order to make enough people that lived to be old enough to reproduce themselves. Also, it implies that a man was the most important one while the woman only was "made" from a small part of man. The beginning of a patriarchial society.

This has been a topic of much debate by scholars. I have even studied the theory that the snake (Lucifer taking a human form) impregnated Eve causing Cain's tribe to be seperate from Abel. Generally, I believe this could be considered a way to relay information and or teach about Will versus Free Will. Related to the snake comment above, are giants, which represent Lucifer's fallen angels having relations with Abel's offspring.

Genesis: God created heaven and earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th day. Literally 7 days in our own concept of time (or) relative time period over millions of years? [The evolution vs. creation theory].

How old is Methusala? 900+ years? Now the oldest man on eath is 115 years? What is time? Is time constant?

Genesis: Too many names to remember or figure out...everyone begat everyone.

I believe this is an attempt to show linebreeding and relationships of the root of Jesus through the most popular people to make the race close to pure of genetic defects.

Ten Commandments: God actually sent a lightening bolt to carve them in stone tablets (or) a message that God is all powerful and with a lightening bolt can strike you dead (or maimed) if you disobey?

This one is more hard to explain and could probably require faith. Seems ruthless to me anyone can die at any time for any reason.

Proverbs: Very good instructions, examples, and analogies.

What is your favortie one?

Revelation: Prophecy, instilling fear, doom, or something else?

It appears the motive is Motivation.

God Created the Heavens and Earth: Are we to assume in our vast and never ending cosmic universe that our own Earth is the only habitable planet in the solar system?

It is very likely there are numerous other planets with similar people on them.

Samson & Delilah: Another parable, story, or illustration that if one or groups of people engaged in sinful ways that a messenger of God could be seduced by a woman and then have the strength and arm length to grab stone columns and pull the temple down? [If a group of people are sinful or corrupt, someone or something will cause your house to fall].

Could go either way. I saw a guy on TV the other day lift up a car and a life was not being threatened and it didn't appear he had supernatural power.

Parting of the Sea: Lot of environmental events could have caused it (by hands of God) and not necessarily one man who let his followers into the sea... [Good vs. Evil] Lott's Wife Turned to a Pillar of Stone: Probably a parable that says a person will have a bad thing happen to them if they disobey their God, not necessarily a "literal" event.

This sounds similar to the creation of the 10 commandments on stone tablets by lightening bolts. Again, would require a leap of faith in my opinion.

Cain & Able: Probably true. It still happens today...siblings killing or trying to kill each other.

What about all the items not mentioned? For example, did Cain and Able have a sister? The bible implies this but did not mention it. How many other brothers were there? 20? 40?

Heaven: Land of Spice and Honey and Milk and fluffy clouds...doubtful.

No one that I know, knows what heaven is like. However, that doesn't mean it is not known what heaven is like.

Hades: Literal fire and brimstone...doubtful.

This may require first hand knowledge also. It could be possible.

There is obviously Hades and Heaven on Earth as well as probably the hereafter in some form or another. I don't think any mortal individual (except Jesus) has actually every returned from death to report on either. On the other hand, what about "Guardian Angels"???

It appears you had a spiritual awakening since you believe in Jesus. :mrgreen:

Guardian Angels could be hard to prove but not impossible.

Oh well...dug my hole a little deeper. I'm not saying that any of the above or any previous comments I have made actually correspond to one or more of my everyday beliefs. Just using some logical questions and approaches to the unknown...no crime in that???

Hole? Looks like you are human. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[HerefordSire]

Since you are tossing out food for thought I'd like to toss something out as well. What if the Bible is the history of the Jewish people? Would this not explain many of your "academic questions" ? Would it not also explain how Cain could leave and take a wife and build a city? Of why God marked him so that no one he ran across would kill him? And is this not further suggested in Matt 15 25-27? Best thing to do is to believe in God not a religion. JMO

Could you expand your thinking because I am having trouble understanding how you are explaining your last sentence.

 

[HerefordSire]

Best thing to do is to believe in God not a religion. JMO

Your absolutely right, Jogee!! :nod: While "church" organizations and religions have done some good, they have also stirred up more divisiveness than can never be undone.

At times, you can't tell the difference between organized religion and organized crime...

Like Jim Baker and Robert Tilton?

 

[alacattleman]

Thought we were asked not discuss Religion or Politics on here?

im slowly but showly starting too see why

 

[HerefordSire]

HS, to deep for me.
I believe. That is it. Simple like the faith of a little child. I believe He created us, that He died on the cross for our sins and that we need to ask Him into our hearts and for forgiveness of our sins. With that, and that alone we will be saved. However, if the confession is true, He will work in our lives and change us to be more like Him in our actions, our thoughts, our heart. These will be visible signs of the change in us. That said, we are human, and even though we strive to be Christ like with His help, we do and will screw up and make a mess of things. And like the loving Father he is, He will forgive us, and love us unconditionally. That is it. Nothing more nothing less. Its a two parter. Like "and", "but", "because", and "cause and effect".
Anymore than that and it gets confusing and confusion is not of the Father. There can be all the physical proof in the world and more and still it would require faith in Him. In Christ's time, they had Him walking the earth and they chose not to believe.

Just so we are clear, I believe in the literalness of the bible. I believe that God inspired men to write the books and letters. And that He inspired men to put the bible together for us to read and learn about our Father in heaven. In my heart, I believe if we start reading between the lines, interpreting what is said, we leave ourselves open to allow different interpretations of the bilbe. If we do that we end up with confusion...and strife in the church...and again...God is not the author of confusion

God did not directly give us airplanes did He? Yet we fly in airplanes all over the world. Is this bad to use something He did not directly give us? Or did He give us a mind to use for a good reason and we used it figure out how to fly. Did He give us the ability to become confused to better ourselves? Is confusion bad or good? Is spanking a child good or bad? Is giving a case of whiskey to an alcoholic good or bad?

 

[HerefordSire]

I have read all of the "impossibilities" that people throw out there: the 7 days of creation or 7 ages? The miracles and other examples from the bible that people say are impossible, but here are some things that made me stop and think on my spiritual Journey.

God's people still exist. Where are the hittites, the assyrians, the moabites, the babylonians, the amorites, the canaanites? The Hebrews are still with us despite horrible persecution and very professional attempts to blot them out. God's protection? I think so.

Anyone that is close to the earth, that sees how nature works knows that there is an intelligent design involved. There is a creator, all around us was created and it is good. How it was done, I have no idea, evolution might be part or it or not. Doesn't matter. It was done.

Now for Jesus... When he was crucified. You had 11 terrified disciples that were in hiding. a couple of days later, they were boldly preaching his resurrection. Now stop and think about that. 10 out of the 11 were killed for their testimony eventually. You do not die for something that you know to be false. They were killed in horrible fashion. Why did they do it? Because they knew that he had risen from the dead! and they had no fear.

And they established the church before they were killed and it took over most of the known world. Amazing. Very unlikely without God. And impossible if it was all a lie.

That is why I believe.

Now one more thing. Those of you that tell yourselves that if you lead a good life, that is all it takes, need to realize that you will never be good enough to stand in the presence of a perfect God. No one is without Jesus's gift. You must tell Jesus that you accept that he paid for your sins and accept him as your savior, live in him and then lead that good life as well as you can. And when you mess up, ask to be forgiven.
Easy as pie.

That is what I believe.

I would say that is a very good post. I would like to hear more things that made you stop and think along your spiritual journey.

 

[HerefordSire]

nor will it,i doubt 11 more would make a dent

Doubt your doubts. :cboy: :cboy: :cboy:

 

[chrisy]

Is giving a case of Whiskey to an alcoholic a good or bad thing?.....that would depend on who the alcoholic was. :lol2: