Cattle people/ farmers are getting old.

[Rancher]

My perspective (28 years old, been a hired hand/manager since I was 16), there's a lot more fun ways to lose money than cows.

I don't think it's any fault of my generation. Work on making agriculture a little more attainable/profitable, and the rest will fall into place.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't really have any interest in slaving away for crummy wages and no benefits. I'll be out of ag within the next two years. It's not going to give me the kind of life that I want, and I need to be doing whatever will.

That sums it all up mates

 

[NewRenoFarmsInKY]

There's plenty of comments on farming and how much it costs to buy land and making that pay. I think the road to starting ranching is not in owning land. Owning land is a good investment but not when u need cash flow and don't have the money to buy it. My goal is to own a smaller land base and rent a higher percentage. Margins are way to too tight to be able to make purchasing land payments. I'd be interested to know what percentage a person can afford to own vs rent or lease.

What you say makes sense, but will not work for everyone-and leasing is much riskier in my eyes.

You could work your fingers to the bone improving or just maintaining a lease-then lose it through no fault of your own. Maybe somebody offers more, or perhaps the nicer you make their ground the more they want you to pay? Maybe the person you're leasing from dies? Maybe they're a jerk and y'all just can't get along? At least with ownership you reap the benefits of your investments.

Don't get me wrong, leasing has benefits-I may even look for a lease in the next couple of years, but it certainly isn't as stable as ownership so you better be as flexible as Gumby, lol!

A quick edit to re-emphasize what you say is viable, but would have been too risky for my blood when I was starting. Better to bite the bullet up front if there's any way.

 

[TRehbein]

I know here in Canada, there's a big problem of the current farming/ranching population (not just cows, but everything; orchards, veggies, etc) aging out, and no young people able to afford the insane cost of land to get into it. The prices in BC (Western Canada) are INSANE. My parent's home was maybe worth 50-80,000 (CAD) when I was younger 15 years ago, and considering buying a house in that area; it's worth 500,000 easy, now. It's just a house with a relatively large yard. And the prices in that area aren't even the worst. Same out east -- the far east (maritimes) were low for a while (because there are no jobs out there) but now that everybody from Ontario and Western Canada is realizing they can own land for cheap, the prices are skyrocketing out there, too. We were lucky enough to stretch ourselves thin about 10 years ago and buy 100+ acres to farm in Nova Scotia, but we certainly would have a hard time affording the same thing now with the prices going up so high again all of a sudden.

We have some programs, run by the government, in place that are matching up young people with farm apprenticeships, or partnerships, or leases, or any other number of arrangements for mutual benefit with people who are getting old enough to want out. Nobody without land to sell can afford to buy these huge farming properties at the current rates (I'm talking even with working multiple jobs to save; if you're paying rent and buying food these days, you're fighting a hard battle) but many are trying to lease them out, etc. It seems to be getting a lot more young people out there working on farms, which is what we need to keep farming going when people's kids don't want to work on their own farms. (Or they don't have kids, etc).

I think there are keen farm-minded people out there; it's just harder than it used to be for them to connect with enough money to get started, or the right situation. Leasing out your land or doing a partnership or land-sharing isn't often considered out here as an option when people are doing it on their own - but when these programs connect young farmers with old ones that have similar goals for land use, and takes care of all the legal processes of negotiating the agreements, it makes things a lot easier.

Definitely agree there are some lazy people out there, though... I've been shocked working at times where people get hired and seem to think they can sit on their phone all day, and then act surprised when they get reprimanded and eventually fired. But I don't think that's all of 'em; I've worked with just as many people who burn themselves out trying to give too much to the company.

 

[KAstocker]

If it was easy to make money, everybody would do it. It's got to be a bit hard to keep the yahoos out.

 

[Lucky]

Can't never could and don't get stuck thinking you have to own land to run cattle. There's also a thing called moving.....I believe faster horses talked about it in a post we all liked. They wanted it bad enough.

 

[shaz]

I started this farm 17 years ago and paid 348K for 200 acres. At the time calves were bring 1.35lb and good feed $4 for a 50lb bag. The math worked then. It doesn't now, not even close.

 

[Atimm693]

I started this farm 17 years ago and paid 348K for 200 acres. At the time calves were bring 1.35lb and good feed $4 for a 50lb bag. The math worked then. It doesn't now, not even close.

Neighbors bought their place for just under 400k in 2011. 390 acres, small pipe corral, small house that is livable but nothing fancy. 2 car garage and an old dairy barn.

That same place would bring close to a million now, and hasn't been improved in any way.

 

[Son of Butch]

Brute 23 said
Most young people want and need to make money.

Partner, I think you need to modify the first part of the sentence.
Should begin, Some, or a Few, at least in these parts.

Everyone in your part of the country independently wealthy D2?
No need for money in these here parts... LOL

Never ceases to amaze me people's lack of reading and comprehension skills.
But sure are quick with opinions without any understanding of what they are attacking. And moderator 3 is at the top of that list.

 

[Aaron]

Most of North America's land base was priced out of livestock production decades ago. Look at how many producers rely on off-farm income to survive. That is not the image of a viable self-sustaining business.

You can drive school bus here and make 80k a year. Work at the local gold mine, 12 hour days, 7 days on/4 off and every job is 100k+, trades like electrician are doing $130-140k at the mine. I have a hard time cracking $100k gross at times and 80hrs is a slow week for me. Haying season I do 110-120 hrs. Not unusual to be in tractor seat for 8-10 hours straight, every day, in summer. How many guys want that life? You have to be completed obsessed with cows like me to even rationalize investing that amount of your life to get a portion of what other people make.

Land values jumping fast here this winter. One neighbor got in on 160 acres of almost completely scrub brush for $160k. Neighborhood was surprised his wife let him buy it as she retired from teaching last year and told him no more of her paycheck was subsidizing the cows. Big grain operation 15 miles to the west is buying premium open fields for $2k/acre.

Guys who paid those same land values, 40 years ago here, all went bankrupt. Same thing could happen again if interest rates start climbing with any vigor.

 

[D2Cat]

Brute 23 said
Most young people want and need to make money.

Everyone in your part of the country independently wealthy D2?
No need for money in these here parts... LOL

Never ceases to amaze me people's lack of reading and comprehension skills.
But sure are quick with opinions without any understanding of what they are attacking. And moderator 3 is at the top of that list.

Nope, they're not wealthy they are just lazy and use to the government handouts.

 

[Dave]

People talk about how you just can't make it work today. Well, I remember well how my Dad wanted to make a living raising cattle. As a young kid in the '50's it seemed like every weekend we took a drive to look at a place which was for sale. There was one in particular that I remember well. It was 730 acres of mostly real good bottom ground. A 3 story 5 bedroom farm house, 2 big barns, and two forks of the Satsop river flowing through it. Some other features which really impressed me as a 7 year old kid. Only $73,000. What a buy. But he had a real good job at the time which was paying about $4,500 a year. How do you make a payment on that place with those wages? Making hay would have been with an 8N or similar tractor with a 6 foot sickle bar mower. All baled in little squares that would have to be picked up by hand. I don't know when or why Dad gave up on his dream but by the '60's we weren't looking at farms or ranches anymore. I don't think that leasing land to put together a herd ever crossed his mind. If you aren't born into it, win the lottery, or have a rich relative die leaving you in the will, leasing and building a herd while working a day job is about the only way to go.

 

[mml373]

Some of the stuff partner is right on, but certainly not true in totality unless you catch some breaks. I started from absolute scratch myself at 39. The capital outlay will keep most from even having the ability to enter the business.

I retired from the Coast Guard, and see a pension from that, and from the VA for being a physical wreck from the physical beating a military career can have on your body. But if not for those "breaks" I'd have no money for cow business. Try to start cheap with old equipment was my plan-I gave that up in the first year, spent all my time working on equipment when I needed to be using it.

Cattle ground that sucks in Western Kentucky is at least 3k an acre-I have bought 150 acres of it. Old or no fences. Add time, cost of fencing, clearing, soil amending, etc- that was about 25k for me, and I got away cheap because I did most of that myself…

Tractor, mower, baler, etc, probably in 130k into equipment. I did the math-and because I have access to "free" hay ground it was the better route for me than buying hay.

Oh, I bought cows too… and handling equipment, and probably around 10k in seed-but I need more for the ground I just bought last month.

What profit have I seen? Nothing. Losses are plentiful though.

Now, long term, sure I will realize profit. I'm 42 now, my equipment is paid off or close to it. My farms, well, that'll be another 20 years. By the time I kick the bucket my kids should have a profitable ranch that's free and clear of debt.

So if you look at it like a savings account, I could agree with that methodology-my investments will pay dividends. But if I had to support my family off of a new farm, well, that would be impossible…at least for me.

I'll be in the black this year or the next, but my coming years showing a profit will really just be paying back my initial investments into the ranching operation. It doesn't pencil out when you look at everything, but I'm a cattleman and I love the work and the routine keeps me relatively sane. I'm not disagreeing that it can be done-but even for the willing it's a tough row. But I'm glad you've made it work, there are still first timers like us willing to give it a shot and always will be.

I'd go into more depth, but I've got cows to feed.

Retired from the Air Force in 2020 and started from scratch on 35 measly acres with a dilapidated house that I'm going to have to rebuild (inspector wasn't honest). You can't find land to buy out here in my part of MO, and when you do it is expensive and large tracts starting around $450k and more. With the cost of building a new home, buying more land isn't even a starter. It is easier to buy houses and cash flow rent. The same money in 2 houses would cash flow $36,000 a year and loan would be a lot easier to obtain than a loan for land. They don't even give loans for land unless you have 50% down. No upstart I know has that kind of cash. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There's little advice out there for folks getting started, where farming may have skipped a generation. I'm learning everything from scratch and I think I am too disabled to work with cows hands on (I can't jump or move quickly). Local advice for how to handle and work with cows would go a long way.

Not saying it is a lost cause but I'm not seeing a path. I'd love another 160 acres, a reliable tractor with implements, and a bit of knowledge.

 

[Little Joe]

Farm up the road from me went on the market a few months ago, 60 acres, 5 br house, shop and barn, marginal ground, $900,000 asking price. I was able to purchase 38 acres that joined me a little over a year ago for $140k, seemed high then but looks like a bargain now.

 

[mml373]

I tried to use the FSA starting farmers/ranchers loan to buy a place from a family member. I had owned cows and grown hay for 4 years at the time so I fit there 10 years or less in ag requirement. The problem was I hadn't been signing up for the welfare programs on the ground I had leased. I never went in and filled out paperwork stating how many acres I had leased from whom and how many cows I ran on it or how many tons of hay I made. So they had no record that I was a rancher. No loan for me. If you don't play their games and take their free money when you have a dry year you don't get the loan. It made no difference I could provide all the financial records where I paid lease, bought fertilizer and sold cattle and hay. That didn't meet their requirements.

Also most of these stories I'm reading here about success are people starting in their 30's, 20 something years ago. I am talking about starting younger and starting today with the current prices of land and cattle. In my area land brings $4,500 for good grassland. put that on a 30 year note at 4% interest and you're looking and around $250 a year an acre payment. Takes 4-5 acres to run a cow most the year with little hay or 2 acres if you wanna feed hay for 4 or 5 months. 3 acres times $250=$750 just in land cost per cow. That doesn't leave much for taxes and feed or improvements. I'm not saying I won't try to make it work anyway, I'm just making the point that it's not apples to apples comparison talking about someone that started even 5 years ago, much less 20 or 30 years ago.

And people love to talk about how many hours they work or how lazy they think the younger generation is or even their neighbor. I don't think that's something we can compare or argue on a internet forum. No way to really know what people do with their time. It takes some people 10 minutes to put their shoes on, does taking longer make what they accomplished more valuable?

What I see, here in southern/southwest Missouri, is a lot of generational wealth. Not upstarts. FSA is useless, Farmer Veteran Coalition isn't helpful (I'm retired USAF), and there's not a lot of "real farmers" with time to help us upstarts out. Larger tracts of land are not affordable. The folks on my piddly 35 acres bought it from family for $100 in 1970-something, built a cheap house they didn't maintain, and sold it to me in 2020 for much more than they invested. (hahaha)

Their family owns all the land around here and had been farming/ranching for generations.

 

[Brute 23]

If I was to say any thing to a young person getting in, it would be to come at it knowing this will not be the same industry your grandfather or generations before us played in, hopefully. Some thing has to give going forward. No one knows exactly how or what needs to be done at this point. IMO, producers have to take control of the end product to survive long term. I would get control of the marketing, selling, processing, end first and back my way down to the cattle.

 

[Little Joe]

If I was to say any thing to a young person getting in, it would be to come at it knowing this will not be the same industry your grandfather or generations before us played in, hopefully. Some thing has to give going forward. No one knows exactly how or what needs to be done at this point. IMO, producers have to take control of the end product to survive long term. I would get control of the marketing, selling, processing, end first and back my way down to the cattle.

That's exactly what I'm having to do. I tried going at it all different angles, the only way I can make it work is direct sell and grow that and build my inventory to match that demand.

 

[NewRenoFarmsInKY]

What I see, here in southern/southwest Missouri, is a lot of generational wealth. Not upstarts. FSA is useless, Farmer Veteran Coalition isn't helpful (I'm retired USAF), and there's not a lot of "real farmers" with time to help us upstarts out. Larger tracts of land are not affordable. The folks on my piddly 35 acres bought it from family for $100 in 1970-something, built a cheap house they didn't maintain, and sold it to me in 2020 for much more than they invested. (hahaha)

Their family owns all the land around here and had been farming/ranching for generations.

I have enjoyed being a FVC - farmers veteran coalition member and I think they offer a lot of help personally. But as with all things YMMV.

 

[DNelson]

Most of North America's land base was priced out of livestock production decades ago. Look at how many producers rely on off-farm income to survive. That is not the image of a viable self-sustaining business.

You can drive school bus here and make 80k a year. Work at the local gold mine, 12 hour days, 7 days on/4 off and every job is 100k+, trades like electrician are doing $130-140k at the mine. I have a hard time cracking $100k gross at times and 80hrs is a slow week for me. Haying season I do 110-120 hrs. Not unusual to be in tractor seat for 8-10 hours straight, every day, in summer. How many guys want that life? You have to be completed obsessed with cows like me to even rationalize investing that amount of your life to get a portion of what other people make.

Land values jumping fast here this winter. One neighbor got in on 160 acres of almost completely scrub brush for $160k. Neighborhood was surprised his wife let him buy it as she retired from teaching last year and told him no more of her paycheck was subsidizing the cows. Big grain operation 15 miles to the west is buying premium open fields for $2k/acre.

Guys who paid those same land values, 40 years ago here, all went bankrupt. Same thing could happen again if interest rates start climbing with any vigor.

pay attention to this. Aron said: "Guys who paid those same land values, 40 years ago here, all went bankrupt. Same thing could happen again if interest rates start climbing with any vigor." the Fed is on track to do just that.

 

[DNelson]

People talk about how you just can't make it work today. Well, I remember well how my Dad wanted to make a living raising cattle. As a young kid in the '50's it seemed like every weekend we took a drive to look at a place which was for sale. There was one in particular that I remember well. It was 730 acres of mostly real good bottom ground. A 3 story 5 bedroom farm house, 2 big barns, and two forks of the Satsop river flowing through it. Some other features which really impressed me as a 7 year old kid. Only $73,000. What a buy. But he had a real good job at the time which was paying about $4,500 a year. How do you make a payment on that place with those wages? Making hay would have been with an 8N or similar tractor with a 6 foot sickle bar mower. All baled in little squares that would have to be picked up by hand. I don't know when or why Dad gave up on his dream but by the '60's we weren't looking at farms or ranches anymore. I don't think that leasing land to put together a herd ever crossed his mind. If you aren't born into it, win the lottery, or have a rich relative die leaving you in the will, leasing and building a herd while working a day job is about the only way to go.

it works that way with any business. you have to have enough product to sell to cover costs and draw an income. is it go big or go home? probably if you have the funds however to start out small and grow it can be possible. You cant make a living with 10 cows and 80 acres, because there isnt enough man hours of work to make it happen. starting small and leasing and buying over time along with off farm income is not for every future framer/rancher but is an option that can work.

 

[Son of Butch]

Nope, they're not wealthy they are just lazy and use to the government handouts.

So that means they don't want money? Or that they have no need for money?
You corrected Brute-23 by saying - young people don't want or need money.