Cattle people/ farmers are getting old.

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My perspective (28 years old, been a hired hand/manager since I was 16), there's a lot more fun ways to lose money than cows.

I don't think it's any fault of my generation. Work on making agriculture a little more attainable/profitable, and the rest will fall into place.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't really have any interest in slaving away for crummy wages and no benefits. I'll be out of ag within the next two years. It's not going to give me the kind of life that I want, and I need to be doing whatever will.
You are right. It is not your generation's fault at all. It is the fault of your grandparents and great-grandparents generations, that voted for all the social programs and free stuff since the 1930's. Kudos to you for making good decisions and trying to make the kind of life you want. Hopefully you will become very wealthy, and then you can have a ranch for fun and tax breaks, if you want one!
 
No way for anyone to start from scratch, with land prices like they are, taxes like they are, equipment high as it is, fertilizer.
This is simply not true. I started at 35 yo. Bought 90 acres and 20 cows. Now I own over 400 acres and have had as many as 120 mother cows. I've bought 3 new cab tractors, equipment, a dozer, cattle trailers, skid steer and plenty attachments, and a ton of other things. Nobody in my family owned land or cattle in 75 yrs before me. I did all this with a High School Diploma an an hourly job that anyone with half a brain could get. The trick is to want it bad enough and be willing to work. Some people spend $10k on Disney Vacation some would rather make a tractor payment. Is there easier ways to make money? Well sure but I'd say if you pursue the easier ways you don't have a ranch because you didn't want one. Nobody wants to work hard and put their time in any more, it's all about instant gratification. It really is a shame because there's a whole world ready for the Picken. Learning has never been easier either. This little deal I'm typing on has more power than they used to launch the first space shuttle but most people use it to see what everyone else has done for the day or post a pic of their lunch. Sorry I get upset when someone says " It can't be done" we all know better.

All the other stuff you mentioned is spot on but.....you could do all that while building and running a ranch....free time....what's that?
 
My perspective (28 years old, been a hired hand/manager since I was 16), there's a lot more fun ways to lose money than cows.

I don't think it's any fault of my generation. Work on making agriculture a little more attainable/profitable, and the rest will fall into place.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't really have any interest in slaving away for crummy wages and no benefits. I'll be out of ag within the next two years. It's not going to give me the kind of life that I want, and I need to be doing whatever will.
"Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't , you're probably right'' Henry Ford
 
This is simply not true. I started at 35 yo. Bought 90 acres and 20 cows. Now I own over 400 acres and have had as many as 120 mother cows. I've bought 3 new cab tractors, equipment, a dozer, cattle trailers, skid steer and plenty attachments, and a ton of other things. Nobody in my family owned land or cattle in 75 yrs before me. I did all this with a High School Diploma an an hourly job that anyone with half a brain could get. The trick is to want it bad enough and be willing to work. Some people spend $10k on Disney Vacation some would rather make a tractor payment. Is there easier ways to make money? Well sure but I'd say if you pursue the easier ways you don't have a ranch because you didn't want one. Nobody wants to work hard and put their time in any more, it's all about instant gratification. It really is a shame because there's a whole world ready for the Picken. Learning has never been easier either. This little deal I'm typing on has more power than they used to launch the first space shuttle but most people use it to see what everyone else has done for the day or post a pic of their lunch. Sorry I get upset when someone says " It can't be done" we all know better.

All the other stuff you mentioned is spot on but.....you could do all that while building and running a ranch....free time....what's that?
You have done all that with cow money only?
 
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You have done all that with cow money only?
No, but that's not what was said. The Cattle have pretty well always paid their own way and bought some equipment and they also make one of the annual land payments. When I bought the first set of cows I rode with the old cowboy that was delivering them. He told me something I haven't forgotten. He said that cows have to get up and go to work everyday just like you do. My job at the ranch is to build fences, facilities and keep cows fed....theirs is to raise babies. The land is a long term investment and the cows are there to make the land cash flow.
 
I know several men who have started with nothing and done very well in the cattle business. One neighbor I talk about here came from a dirt poor family. About a dozen kids on a poor dirt farm. All he inherited was a work ethic. In a couple weeks he will start calving out about 1,000 cows. Owns thousands of acres of land. His normal work schedule is 16-18 hours a day 7 days a week. Starting out he shod horses on the side to put food on the table. He is not afraid of debt. On the other hand he does not frivolously spend money. But he does take time off to play. There are 6 brothers in the family. Four of them are in cattle full time in a big way, one got into farming the old fashion way (married the daughter of a big time farmer), and one they never talk about (in trouble all his life). Only one of them as more than a high school education. But they all know how to run a calculator and push a pencil.
 
An old man in the area who owned thousands of cows over his life said cattle are like a savings account. You'll make some cash over the years but the value is in adding to and building the account.
 
No, but that's not what was said. The Cattle have pretty well always paid their own way and bought some equipment and they also make one of the annual land payments. When I bought the first set of cows I rode with the old cowboy that was delivering them. He told me something I haven't forgotten. He said that cows have to get up and go to work everyday just like you do. My job at the ranch is to build fences, facilities and keep cows fed....theirs is to raise babies. The land is a long term investment and the cows are there to make the land cash flow.
What many of us are saying by "starting from scratch" we mean and 18, 20, 22 year old with literally nothing, buying cattle and using the cash flow to grow the business, while positioning themselves to raise a family with a decent quality of life.
 
This is simply not true. I started at 35 yo. Bought 90 acres and 20 cows. Now I own over 400 acres and have had as many as 120 mother cows. I've bought 3 new cab tractors, equipment, a dozer, cattle trailers, skid steer and plenty attachments, and a ton of other things. Nobody in my family owned land or cattle in 75 yrs before me. I did all this with a High School Diploma an an hourly job that anyone with half a brain could get. The trick is to want it bad enough and be willing to work. Some people spend $10k on Disney Vacation some would rather make a tractor payment. Is there easier ways to make money? Well sure but I'd say if you pursue the easier ways you don't have a ranch because you didn't want one. Nobody wants to work hard and put their time in any more, it's all about instant gratification. It really is a shame because there's a whole world ready for the Picken. Learning has never been easier either. This little deal I'm typing on has more power than they used to launch the first space shuttle but most people use it to see what everyone else has done for the day or post a pic of their lunch. Sorry I get upset when someone says " It can't be done" we all know better.

All the other stuff you mentioned is spot on but.....you could do all that while building and running a ranch....free time....what's that?
Some of the stuff partner is right on, but certainly not true in totality unless you catch some breaks. I started from absolute scratch myself at 39. The capital outlay will keep most from even having the ability to enter the business.

I retired from the Coast Guard, and see a pension from that, and from the VA for being a physical wreck from the physical beating a military career can have on your body. But if not for those "breaks" I'd have no money for cow business. Try to start cheap with old equipment was my plan-I gave that up in the first year, spent all my time working on equipment when I needed to be using it.

Cattle ground that sucks in Western Kentucky is at least 3k an acre-I have bought 150 acres of it. Old or no fences. Add time, cost of fencing, clearing, soil amending, etc- that was about 25k for me, and I got away cheap because I did most of that myself…

Tractor, mower, baler, etc, probably in 130k into equipment. I did the math-and because I have access to "free" hay ground it was the better route for me than buying hay.

Oh, I bought cows too… and handling equipment, and probably around 10k in seed-but I need more for the ground I just bought last month.

What profit have I seen? Nothing. Losses are plentiful though.

Now, long term, sure I will realize profit. I'm 42 now, my equipment is paid off or close to it. My farms, well, that'll be another 20 years. By the time I kick the bucket my kids should have a profitable ranch that's free and clear of debt.

So if you look at it like a savings account, I could agree with that methodology-my investments will pay dividends. But if I had to support my family off of a new farm, well, that would be impossible…at least for me.

I'll be in the black this year or the next, but my coming years showing a profit will really just be paying back my initial investments into the ranching operation. It doesn't pencil out when you look at everything, but I'm a cattleman and I love the work and the routine keeps me relatively sane. I'm not disagreeing that it can be done-but even for the willing it's a tough row. But I'm glad you've made it work, there are still first timers like us willing to give it a shot and always will be.

I'd go into more depth, but I've got cows to feed.
 
Good thread. I suppose I fit into the younger generation category. I'd say if those retiring or we'll established in the business want to help out the next generation get into it. We are mostly looking for opportunity. If u have a choice between renting your land to the big shot thats got a wad of cash in hand or the young guy who is desperate for a piece of land and maybe can't pay rent till fall but will. Then choose the young guy. Or maybe u need some labor and see a fellow trying to make a go of it, offer a job and an opportunity to prove himself and some day buy the ranch if it's a fit. I think we have a lot to learn from the older generation and wish there could be more arrangements where we are mentored in to the cattle business.
 
Cattle as a whole are too capital intensive, have too small of a margin, and are too risky for most young people to jump in to as a sole income source.

Plus, it's a bad investment. From age 20-30 years old a young person should be pouring money in the stock market. With compound interest, time is the biggest factor. You can flip cows, raise momma cows, invest in land, or do what ever you want at any point. Most of those are about certain points in time.

Cattle are a lot easier with a retirement account, or another business, making money no matter if you are sick, break your leg, or just want to spend time with family and friends.
 
What many of us are saying by "starting from scratch" we mean and 18, 20, 22 year old with literally nothing, buying cattle and using the cash flow to grow the business, while positioning themselves to raise a family with a decent quality of life.
I understand that and it would be tough beginnings. However you don't Start by buying 1,000 acres and 200 cows. You can Start by working somewhere else and leasing land and having 10 cows. You constantly try to learn and move forward in life and not settle for less than what you want. If I would've started sooner with the cattle I'd have twice the land I do now. Instead I listened to everyone talk about how it's not possible. The FSA Will loan up to $600,000 on land and $200,000 on cows @1.5% to young people trying to get started in AG. From what I hear it's a long drawn out process but is doable. They'll go 40 yrs on the land too. I was older and had a decent job so always have to put up the 20% to get land or cattle loan so in a way it's probably easier when your younger. I will agree that it would be tough but that's life.
 
I seriously doubt anyone could start from scratch and ONLY run cattle to make a living. I'm saying you work hard and do whatever it takes to get it. I've been at it for 15 yrs and still get up at 4:45 am to go put in a 7-7 12 hr shift and then feed Cows when I get off at night. Lots of nights I get in at 9 pm and back up @ 4:45 to hit it again and I feed everyday during feeding season. I still build all my own fences and corrals or whatever else needs done. This would've been much easier years ago. I got my down payment for the first 90 acres I bought by selling Bass boat and used a gas engine welding machine as collateral for the cow loan. I pretty much had nothing. I did have a newer 50 hp tractor that I'd bought to mow 5 acres with. No loader just a shredder. Is there better and smarter ways to make money of course there is but that's not what was said In the post I quoted.
 
I understand that and it would be tough beginnings. However you don't Start by buying 1,000 acres and 200 cows. You can Start by working somewhere else and leasing land and having 10 cows. You constantly try to learn and move forward in life and not settle for less than what you want. If I would've started sooner with the cattle I'd have twice the land I do now. Instead I listened to everyone talk about how it's not possible. The FSA Will loan up to $600,000 on land and $200,000 on cows @1.5% to young people trying to get started in AG. From what I hear it's a long drawn out process but is doable. They'll go 40 yrs on the land too. I was older and had a decent job so always have to put up the 20% to get land or cattle loan so in a way it's probably easier when your younger. I will agree that it would be tough but that's life.
I tried to use the FSA starting farmers/ranchers loan to buy a place from a family member. I had owned cows and grown hay for 4 years at the time so I fit there 10 years or less in ag requirement. The problem was I hadn't been signing up for the welfare programs on the ground I had leased. I never went in and filled out paperwork stating how many acres I had leased from whom and how many cows I ran on it or how many tons of hay I made. So they had no record that I was a rancher. No loan for me. If you don't play their games and take their free money when you have a dry year you don't get the loan. It made no difference I could provide all the financial records where I paid lease, bought fertilizer and sold cattle and hay. That didn't meet their requirements.

Also most of these stories I'm reading here about success are people starting in their 30's, 20 something years ago. I am talking about starting younger and starting today with the current prices of land and cattle. In my area land brings $4,500 for good grassland. put that on a 30 year note at 4% interest and you're looking and around $250 a year an acre payment. Takes 4-5 acres to run a cow most the year with little hay or 2 acres if you wanna feed hay for 4 or 5 months. 3 acres times $250=$750 just in land cost per cow. That doesn't leave much for taxes and feed or improvements. I'm not saying I won't try to make it work anyway, I'm just making the point that it's not apples to apples comparison talking about someone that started even 5 years ago, much less 20 or 30 years ago.

And people love to talk about how many hours they work or how lazy they think the younger generation is or even their neighbor. I don't think that's something we can compare or argue on a internet forum. No way to really know what people do with their time. It takes some people 10 minutes to put their shoes on, does taking longer make what they accomplished more valuable?
 
There's plenty of comments on farming and how much it costs to buy land and making that pay. I think the road to starting ranching is not in owning land. Owning land is a good investment but not when u need cash flow and don't have the money to buy it. My goal is to own a smaller land base and rent a higher percentage. Margins are way to too tight to be able to make purchasing land payments. I'd be interested to know what percentage a person can afford to own vs rent or lease.
 
Ya, this isn't about how hard you work... it's math. People work themselves to death every day and it still doesn't work out for them.

Work smarter... not harder. That's the saying right.
If you plan to be a success. Especially if you start with nothing. You had better work both harder and smarter.
 

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