Bull recall by seller for semen use?

[cypressfarms]

Over the last couple of months, I've been getting every sale catalog that I could, even breeds that I might not be interested in, so that I could get a better grasp on these big time bull auctions.

Previously, we've always bought bulls private treaty.

My concern is that in a little less than half of the farm catalogs, the fine print in front states that the seller has the right to collect semen in the future if they so desire.

My guess is that they do this in case the bull you/me buy from them turns out to be a big money bull. This way they could get some of that big money.

I have to admit that I don't like the thought of me paying a large amount of money for a bull, taking care of it, and having someone call me to tell me that they want semen.

Is this standard in the big time bull industry?

I'd like some comments, because right now, I'm leaning torwards just not considering purchasing from these sellers.

 

[MikeC]

I have seen a lot of sellers retain a semen interest in a bull and see nothing wrong with it if the buyers knows up front.

I have, and would do it in a heartbeat if the conditions are spelled out before the purchase and are acceptable to me.

Not everyone is a crook.


The only 100% accurate way to tell if a bull is exeptional is to see how his calves do in the long run.

 

[Frankie]

Over the last couple of months, I've been getting every sale catalog that I could, even breeds that I might not be interested in, so that I could get a better grasp on these big time bull auctions.

Previously, we've always bought bulls private treaty.

My concern is that in a little less than half of the farm catalogs, the fine print in front states that the seller has the right to collect semen in the future if they so desire.

My guess is that they do this in case the bull you/me buy from them turns out to be a big money bull. This way they could get some of that big money.

I have to admit that I don't like the thought of me paying a large amount of money for a bull, taking care of it, and having someone call me to tell me that they want semen.

Is this standard in the big time bull industry?

I'd like some comments, because right now, I'm leaning torwards just not considering purchasing from these sellers.

I see that more and more at Angus sales. It used to be that just a few big breeders retained a percentage of the bull, but today even some small breeders will do it, too.

And I used to see buyers shying away from a bull that had that condition attached, but these days it doesn't seem to matter much. I think they don't pay as much attention now because they know the chances of it happening aren't very high.

Don't buy a bull under those conditions if you're not comfortable. Or talk to the owner and see if you can talk him out of it. But remember that, in some cases, you'll also have a percentage of the money if the bull does become a big seller.

 

[preston39]

cypress....,

Retaining 1/2 interest and full possession is rather standard. It usually comes into play when pre-evaluations strongly suggest that the animal has the POTENTIAL to become popular. How many times have you seen that pre-condition in place during the sale of a pure breed at a local salebarn? I haven't.

Years ago when getting involved with the purebreeds I somewhat resented the desire for retention. Then I got to thinking ...it may be a plus for me in that anything I missed in my evaluation of the purchase was somewhat overridden by a more experienced breeder because he saw something that looked good. Then I turned my attention to the principal of...is the purchase with the 1/2 interest retention worth the money? A principal we apply each time we make a purchase notwithsanding the little bother involved in collecting semen. That can be controlled..after all the bull is not really needed in off season breedng times..so let him work. No interference...and they must feed and care for him during the time being collected. I do insist on knowing the enviroment he is going into and how he is to get there and back. After all it's my investment. On one occasion we refused to allow a bull to be collected at an environment that we thought to be less than ok. We had no problem the seller found another source.
Full possession carries a big stick!

 

[MikeC]

But remember that, in some cases, you'll also have a percentage of the money if the bull does become a big seller.

Good point Frankie..........................

I would like to add........nobody knows a bull better than the man that raised him. If he thinks enough of a bull to retain a semen interest, that could be a plus about the bulls ability.

 

[preston39]

frankie...,
sorry I didn't mean to repeat some of your points. I was doing the post when you posted and didn't see yours until i posted. I think that happens sometimes.

 

[certherfbeef]

The seller of the bull we bought retained semen rights. Works fine for us. They use him and help to get his accuracy up on his numbers. We knew that from the start...not a problem.

 

[dph]

We have a few bulls the seller retained 1/3 interest in. They have the right to collect semen, at their expense, when you are not using the bull. We have one bull they exercised that option on and it wasn't bad at all. They even offered you semen out of him that they had collected for free. Not of a lot of value to us. But if you had a lot of cattle, and really liked the bull, a great way to get more calves out of him without paying to have him collected. Additionally, should the bull "turn out" or should they get other breeders interested in him, you share with them the revenue from the semen sales.

 

[MikeC]

We have a few bulls the seller retained 1/3 interest in. They have the right to collect semen, at their expense, when you are not using the bull. We have one bull they exercised that option on and it wasn't bad at all. They even offered you semen out of him that they had collected for free. Not of a lot of value to us. But if you had a lot of cattle, and really liked the bull, a great way to get more calves out of him without paying to have him collected. Additionally, should the bull "turn out" or should they get other breeders interested in him, you share with them the revenue from the semen sales.

Seems like you should pay for your interest of the semen collection costs, let the seller buy it back from the owner group at cost (for personal use) and share the revenue from semen sales.

That's the way we do it anyway.

 

[Frankie]

frankie...,
sorry I didn't mean to repeat some of your points. I was doing the post when you posted and didn't see yours until i posted. I think that happens sometimes.

No problem.

 

[dph]

Mike: They weren't really selling semen out of the bull. They were just collecting him for their own use to see what kinds of calves they got. I don't even know that they used him much so they probably had plenty left and were just being kind. We only run 100 cows. That could very well be the way they normally handle it if they were selling semen out of him, makes sense to me anyway.

TCM, technically he don't entirely belong to you. They kept 1/3 (or 1/2 depending) and you got full possession. Besides, if your seedstock producer wants to use a little of your bull in their breeding program, well that's kind of a neat deal. It would be neat just to see what he has for calves on their cows and how they look with the rest. And with all respect, and I don't mean to offend, if you don't trust your breeder with that, than why have them as your breeder? You know what I mean?

Told the story once on here, but I will repeat it one more time. I am only 29 and have a lot of things to learn, but I have learned one thing already. Fred Johnson asked me once, "What's the most important part of a pedigree?" I really wanted to come up with something good to say, but couldn't. "The name at the top," Fred said, "because if you can't believe that, you can't believe a number they write after it." I know what you are saying TCM, a lot of people have trusted the wrong guy and got took. But whatever breed you like, you will be able to find breeders in it who've spent their lifetimes building their reputations as honest, trustworthy people. And that is worth alot.

 

[Anonymous]

One other point is that if as the seller you have already collected the bull and have semen in the tank you have to retain part ownership in the semen. When you retain part ownership it allows you the use of your semen without having to have a breeders certifcate or an AI certificate. In essence makes things simpler.

 

[cypressfarms]

But remember that, in some cases, you'll also have a percentage of the money if the bull does become a big seller.

Good point Frankie..........................

I would like to add........nobody knows a bull better than the man that raised him. If he thinks enough of a bull to retain a semen interest, that could be a plus about the bulls ability.

Thanks for all of the posts!

There is one farm in particular that retains semen rights for every bull they sell. I've been thinking of buying from them, but this semen issue is a concern.
-They are 400 miles from me
-I don't have a facility to collect semen
-I don't mind sharing the bull in the off season, but
- what if they call during my 90 day breeding season?

I guess this would all have to be spelled out clearly before purchase, it just seems a hassle.

 

[txag]

Thanks for all of the posts!

There is one farm in particular that retains semen rights for every bull they sell. I've been thinking of buying from them, but this semen issue is a concern.
-They are 400 miles from me
-I don't have a facility to collect semen
-I don't mind sharing the bull in the off season, but
- what if they call during my 90 day breeding season?

I guess this would all have to be spelled out clearly before purchase, it just seems a hassle.

if they retain interest on every bull they sell, i really doubt they exercise their right to collect very often.

if you're taking the bull & using him in a commercial herd, the chances are even slimmer that you'd have to worry about it.

 

[cypressfarms]

Txag,

You up early too?

They do reserve this right for every bull. Your probably right about the chances being slim.

 

[txag]

Txag,

You up early too?

They do reserve this right for every bull. Your probably right about the chances being slim.

i didn't answer the rest of your questions. if they do decide to collect, you don't need a facility. he'd be sent to a stud farm set up for just that purpose. most breeders will work with you on your breeding season. even when bulls are sold on 1/2 interest and 1/2 possession, agreements can usually be worked out between the owners as to time of possession.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,

Bulls can be sold with many conditions.

I would rather be impressed that they would want semen interest. If you purchased the bull... what reasons did you buy him? epd's, looks, muscle, fleshy etc...

Sold my herd sire myself, and bought new blood. But, before I sold him, I collected. I retained semen interest and will continue using him for non daughter heifers. To good of a bull to just sell him. I had to keep him around

The bull does not need to leave the farm. They can come to the farm and collect on him right there. Most collections will be scheduled around the possesion owner. Off season say nice weather, collect (1-2 hours) and all done. I am lucky enough to have North American Breeders about 9 miles down the road. They have open collections days (drive up service) on Mondays and Thursdays. Drove up with him Monday about 9:00am, collected, and was leaving by about 10:30am. The bull gave me 355 straws.

Look at some numbers.
Purebreed Black Angus New Design 878. look over the specs on how many straws have sold. That's a really big grin for the owner.. straws, registrations.. brings in some serious money

 

[Aero]

The original breeder hardly ever takes advantage of the right to collect semen. usually it also states that the semen they collect will be for their use only and if semen sales become available, the revenue is split by ownership.
Many breeders also have the option of selling you the rest of yor bull if you want to pay more.
When the original breeder collects semen, it is almost always during a time that your bull isnt working and doesnt interrupt anything. If they collect the semen they also pay all expenses.

It's sorta like an all expenses paid vacaion for your bull that really doesnt afect you.

 

[Bobg]

I'd want to see a contract before buying a bull with that attachment. I wouldn't want to if the contract was pretty opened as to when they could come and get him and how much they were going to use him.

Bobg

 

[MikeC]

I'd want to see a contract before buying a bull with that attachment. I wouldn't want to if the contract was pretty opened as to when they could come and get him and how much they were going to use him.

Bobg

If you bought "Full Possession" and only a portion of the semen rights, what would be the worry? The Possession owner calls the shots on where he goes and for how long.

Besides, I wish somebody would come get ALL my bulls during the off season. ;-)