BLACK HEREFORDS

[ALACOWMAN]

You know the more i thank about it. we should probably not criticize these breeders and encourage them. after there feeder calves start losing hetorosis.suddunly the black baldy aint as popular to the buyers and all things become equal....halaluyah :lol:

 

[JHH]

Maybe shouldn"t have banded him and try to sell as black hereford? Just kidding He is 5 months and out of my bull

 

[ALACOWMAN]

nice calf looks like he might qualify for registry :cboy:

 

[dun]

nice calf looks like he might qualify for registry :cboy:

He might be one of those that can sire balck hereford steers.
Sorry, couldn;t resist

dun

 

[JHH]

Hey dun what did you think of the bull on other post? Got pic of new mom and baby this morning to.JHH

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Let me restate. he looks like he would have qualified pre castration. i guess i need to really examine my post before i hit submit. ;-)

 

[Hill 70]

Is a black hereford a Black Angus x Hereford or what???

 

[JHH]

supposed to be 7/8 hereford, they get the black I supose from angus.JHH

 

[Campground Cattle]

Is a black hereford a Black Angus x Hereford or what???

It is a crossbred animal, being raised by some people (calling it a breed) that can't compete with quality Angus or Herefords.

 

[randiliana]

Here are some of our "Black Herefords". They are just commercial, but I have to say that they more than compete with any purebred hereford or angus!! I will try to put an approximate breed percentage with the pictures. I think that all the Hereford looking ones had feather necks too.

This is a 2 year old with her calf. the cow would be 3/4 HH and 1/4 AN. The calf would be 7/8 HH and 1/8 AN.

This is a picture of the above 2 year old with her dam. Cow would be 1/2 HH 1/2 AN. Calf 3/4 HH 1/4 AN

Here is a little cow she weighs less than 1000 lbs with her 550-600lb calf. Cow is 1/2 HH 1/2 AN. Calf is 3/4 HH 1/4 AN

Another 1/2 HH 1/2 AN cow with her 3/4 HH 1/4 AN calf

This is a 2 year old 3/4 HH 1/4 AN cow. The calf is 3/8HH 5/8 AN. An AI calf to Hall of Fame. The calf weighed in at 593 on Sept 23. Born Feb 28. I think that is as good or better than any purebred?!

Randi
Saskatchewan, Canada

My Website
http://www.geocities.com/randiliana2000
My Favorite Canadian Gardening group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CdnRRandSeedexch/
My Favorite Canadian Ranching Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canadianfoodanimals

 

[greenwillowherefords]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Hereford influenced genetics, but perhaps you might want to rethink some of your statements. Your "black herefords" are better than any purebred Hereford or Angus. There are some very fine purebreds out there, and while weaning weight itself is not the only indicator of quality, the example you gave, while good, was certainly not better than many purebreds I've observed. I've personally owned a bull with a 740 pound weaning weight at 188 days of age.

 

[Brandonm2]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Hereford influenced genetics, but perhaps you might want to rethink some of your statements. Your "black herefords" are better than any purebred Hereford or Angus. There are some very fine purebreds out there, and while weaning weight itself is not the only indicator of quality, the example you gave, while good, was certainly not better than many purebreds I've observed. I've personally owned a bull with a 740 pound weaning weight at 188 days of age.

We know that Black Herefords are a cross; but I think Hereford is making a mistake in not embracing parts of this concept. At LEAST 50% of the Hereford bought for crossbreeding are bought for crossbreeding with Angus and Angus cross cows. Why not register Baldies (when both parents are reg. Herfs and reg. Anguses)? Simmental is doing this with the SimAngus (which is also just another cross) and Simbrah (probably my least favorite of the registered Brahman cross breeds) and several other breed associations have adopted registered crosses. Turn the black baldie into it's own breed (administered by the AHA) and collect all the money off of new breeders and new registrations and then the AHA could cut the activation fee in half, and have new revenues for more field staff, more advertising, etc. What am I missing here?

 

[Anonymous]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Hereford influenced genetics, but perhaps you might want to rethink some of your statements. Your "black herefords" are better than any purebred Hereford or Angus. There are some very fine purebreds out there, and while weaning weight itself is not the only indicator of quality, the example you gave, while good, was certainly not better than many purebreds I've observed. I've personally owned a bull with a 740 pound weaning weight at 188 days of age.

We know that Black Herefords are a cross; but I think Hereford is making a mistake in not embracing parts of this concept. At LEAST 50% of the Hereford bought for crossbreeding are bought for crossbreeding with Angus and Angus cross cows. Why not register Baldies (when both parents are reg. Herfs and reg. Anguses)? Simmental is doing this with the SimAngus (which is also just another cross) and Simbrah (probably my least favorite of the registered Brahman cross breeds) and several other breed associations have adopted registered crosses. Turn the black baldie into it's own breed (administered by the AHA) and collect all the money off of new breeders and new registrations and then the AHA could cut the activation fee in half, and have new revenues for more field staff, more advertising, etc. What am I missing here?

Brandonm2

Could not disagree with you more. I am glad a herf that is red and white is a known product.

I am glad that NOT ONE Herf org in the world allows "built up cows". Baldies can be had from too many combinations - yeah Herf is one of them - but you simply cannot administer the cross between a black Simm and a Herf and register it the same as the cross between an Angus and a Herf. The possibilities are far too nimerous.

When you get a herf that is registered you are getting a Herf - NOT some 30/32 parts herf and something else in the wood pile.

I personally do not carewhat the other orgs do - I want my org to stay out of that game. I want my cattle to be easily identifiable.

I figure that when the Herf org starts allowing the original breed to be basta(r)dized for a colour fad then they will have lost more than they can gain.

You want black - cross them.

When you look in the field at black cows - what are they - Angus? Simm? or what have you. You no longer can tell.

When you look in a field and see the classic red with a white face what do you see? Not a doubt - it's a Herf.

Something to be said for standing by the breed. Colour is not a breed improvement - it is simply a change in colour.

Bez'

 

[Brandonm2]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Hereford influenced genetics, but perhaps you might want to rethink some of your statements. Your "black herefords" are better than any purebred Hereford or Angus. There are some very fine purebreds out there, and while weaning weight itself is not the only indicator of quality, the example you gave, while good, was certainly not better than many purebreds I've observed. I've personally owned a bull with a 740 pound weaning weight at 188 days of age.

We know that Black Herefords are a cross; but I think Hereford is making a mistake in not embracing parts of this concept. At LEAST 50% of the Hereford bought for crossbreeding are bought for crossbreeding with Angus and Angus cross cows. Why not register Baldies (when both parents are reg. Herfs and reg. Anguses)? Simmental is doing this with the SimAngus (which is also just another cross) and Simbrah (probably my least favorite of the registered Brahman cross breeds) and several other breed associations have adopted registered crosses. Turn the black baldie into it's own breed (administered by the AHA) and collect all the money off of new breeders and new registrations and then the AHA could cut the activation fee in half, and have new revenues for more field staff, more advertising, etc. What am I missing here?

Brandonm2

Could not disagree with you more. I am glad a herf that is red and white is a known product.

I am glad that NOT ONE Herf org in the world allows "built up cows". Baldies can be had from too many combinations - yeah Herf is one of them - but you simply cannot administer the cross between a black Simm and a Herf and register it the same as the cross between an Angus and a Herf. The possibilities are far too nimerous.

When you get a herf that is registered you are getting a Herf - NOT some 30/32 parts herf and something else in the wood pile.

I personally do not carewhat the other orgs do - I want my org to stay out of that game. I want my cattle to be easily identifiable.

I figure that when the Herf org starts allowing the original breed to be basta(r)dized for a colour fad then they will have lost more than they can gain.

You want black - cross them.

When you look in the field at black cows - what are they - Angus? Simm? or what have you. You no longer can tell.

When you look in a field and see the classic red with a white face what do you see? Not a doubt - it's a Herf.

Something to be said for standing by the breed. Colour is not a breed improvement - it is simply a change in colour.

Bez'

Where did I say that Hereford should register any Black calf as a Reg. Hereford??? I didn't. I also did not suggest registering every white face black calf as a registered Black Baldie; but ONLY those that were the cross of a Registered Herf. AND a Registered Angus (not a black Simmental, Gelbvieh, Senegus, Maine, Holstein, Limousin, or any of the other Angus clones or even any Angus commercial cow). The Hereford association has been stuck in the mud spinning it's wheels for 30++ years waiting for the Angus Association to make every new innovation (AI, EPDs, branded beef, carcass EPDs, etc) first and they have squandered their market share and failed to protect their brand name as a result. All I suggested was opening a second COMPLETELY seperate registry for a cross that many Hereford seedstock breeders (including Debter) sell already! and pocketing the revenues from the additional registrations. I have had straight Hereford cows, straight Angus cows, and Black Baldie cows managed in the same group and the Baldie cows ALWAYS outperformed either of the straightbred cows. A breed association is SUPPOSED to be a business and NOT a rancher's country club. You make money selling registration papers(and if that means endorsing a popular cross so be it). Braford SHOULD have been a wholly owned AHA subsidiary; but instead AHA ignored that market segment and let those breeders (and their money) go to a seperate association and registry. Simmental figured this out from Hereford's mistakes. When is the Hereford Association going to once be again be the engine driving the cattle industry train instead of being the industry caboose???

 

[Anonymous]

Sigh - not looking for an argument and not looking to go into minute detail.

Not saying 'you said this and that".

In fact the various baldies would come and request registration - simply because precidence would have been set.

Simply saying I disagree with your comments. You read far too much into what I said.

Take a pill and relax. Let's not get into sentence by sentence arguments - point and counter point - otherwise we will become "frenchie /OT 2".

I figure the Herf orgs I deal with must be different than the ones you deal with. The ones I deal with are very proactive. There are - as in all orgs - some in it for the old boy net - but many are not.

As for certificates and such - I have no clue - you see, I am not and have never been interested in registering my HH.

If you believe the AHA should recognize others - fine - but to make this happen, it has to be world wide. That is simply the way it is set up - if you want to change it the AHA has to go its own way - or the world wide orgs must change - will they?

Who knows.

As for being the caboose - who do we blame? Those who complain about it, or those who run the org? Or those who complain and do not become directors in the org?

I figure the pure Herf is coming on over the past few years and I believe you will see this even more as the next 5 years progress.

Bez'

 

[Brandonm2]

"If you believe the AHA should recognize others - fine - but to make this happen, it has to be world wide. That is simply the way it is set up - if you want to change it the AHA has to go its own way - or the world wide orgs must change - will they?"

I partially disagree. AHA can NOT change the definition of what it means to be Hereford. They obviously can not allow black cattle to be registered as Herfords by themselves(in my mind that should NEVER be allowed even if the animal is 31/32s). Does the American Hereford Association have the authority to create a Black Baldie book (and I would change the Baldie breed name to something sexy like 'Profitmasters' or has somebody already used that?)? I think they do, but if they have to get with the Canadian Hereford guys, the Australian Hereford guys, the Latin guys, the few remaining English Hereford guys, etc to get permission to open a second book then I don't think that would be a huge problem.

""I figure the pure Herf is coming on over the past few years and I believe you will see this even more as the next 5 years progress."

I agree; because the American cattle herd has gotten SOOO Black that at some point cattlemen are going to put hybrid vigous back into their cow herds and Hereford is positioned to be the moderate framed British breed you can cross those Black cattle to to produce X-bred females you can either cross back to the Angus or cross to a continental breed.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Randiliana - that is a great group of cow/calf pairs. Better than MANY purebred posted on this board. Got lots of thickness, guts & bone. You're doing a great job. Congratulations.
Granted, I like heavier weaning weights, but looks like the size of your cows are weaning a great % of their body weight.

 

[Brandonm2]

Look at the pictures again. They are grazing range in Canada and ~1000 pound cows are weaning calves with an adjusted weaning wt (throwing in the standard 64lb AHA adj. for a 2 year old) of 656. If you added 500 pounds and 4 frame scores to the cows you would be hard pressed to get another 100 pounds of real weaning wt under those conditions and you would decrease efficiency (currently approaching ~70%) while radically increasing cow maintenance costs or hurting fertility in the process. Randiliana's cows are EXCELLENT.

 

[randiliana]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for Hereford influenced genetics, but perhaps you might want to rethink some of your statements. Your "black herefords" are better than any purebred Hereford or Angus. There are some very fine purebreds out there, and while weaning weight itself is not the only indicator of quality, the example you gave, while good, was certainly not better than many purebreds I've observed. I've personally owned a bull with a 740 pound weaning weight at 188 days of age.

I actually, did not mean that my commercials were better than ANY purebred. I was speaking in generalities. That is a bull that I would certainly like to introduce into my genetics!! And, yes, weaning weight is only one indicator, but it is perhaps the easiest to mention. However, what I would like to know is the age of that bulls dam? This example was a 2 year old first calf heifer. From my experience, a 600 lb WW from a 2 year old is pretty GOOD.

The sad fact, is that for every purebred that weans at a high weight like that there are probably a dozen that don't even make 500 lbs at a similar age. I know, I have seen them.

Randi
Saskatchewan, Canada
My Website
http://www.geocities.com/randiliana2000
My Favorite Canadian Gardening group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CdnRRandSeedexch/
My Favorite Canadian Ranching Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canadianfoodanimals

 

[randiliana]

Randiliana - that is a great group of cow/calf pairs. Better than MANY purebred posted on this board. Got lots of thickness, guts & bone. You're doing a great job. Congratulations.
Granted, I like heavier weaning weights, but looks like the size of your cows are weaning a great % of their body weight.

Why, thank you, :cboy: !! You are making me blush here!! I figure that our average cow weight is around 1200lbs. I have NO desire for larger girls, although we do have some. They eat too much!! With our 6 months + of winter they sould cost too much too.

We are slowly working our way up to heavier weaning weights. The girls in the pictures (except the 2 year olds) are all trader cattle. Some of them have 4-5 brands on them!!

Randi
Saskatchewan, Canada
My Website
http://www.geocities.com/randiliana2000
My Favorite Canadian Gardening group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CdnRRandSeedexch/
My Favorite Canadian Ranching Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canadianfoodanimals